YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

[PROPHECYKID]

Holo the new covenant was made with the house of Israel. I thought i showed you that some posts ago. Don't say because you are not a jew you should not keep the commandments. In Revelation 14 we see that the saints keep the commandments not the Jews. Since after the stoning of Steven the house of israel has only a spiritual meaning and it was open for adoption. We are not physical israel but spiritual Israel. When the bible says that if any man be Christ he is Abraham's seed he did not mean physically. You do not become a physical Jew but a spiritual Jew.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Inward is spiritual and outward is physical.

 

[holo]

Holo the new covenant was made with the house of Israel. I thought i showed you that some posts ago. Don't say because you are not a jew you should not keep the commandments.

The law is for the wicked and ungodly, not for the righteous. I couldn't "keep" the law even if I wanted to, just lik you can't keep Japanese law if you are in Germany. Dead people can't keep the law, either.

And again, has the law really been changed? What happened to the other 603 commandments? And when was the law given to gentiles as well as Israel? I haven't seen that happening in the bible...

 

[squint]

Israel is God's "demonstration people," so to speak. Even though the law wasn't given to the gentiles, it still has the ability to "shut up" the entire world.

Point being Paul said The Law was meant to shut every mouth and bring the "whole world" guilty before God, and no, you as a gentile believer are NOT exempt from this working.

Lawlessness expressed in and through your body will bring the rightfull condemnation it deserves, and of course we "all" know that this lawlessness IS in our flesh, and that is EXACTLY why 'none' of us like to approach the Law, because of the FACTS that it brings to us individually.

Jesus' words to some Roman official may also be highly important and valuable to me, but that doesn't mean Jesus said those words to me. See my point?

Let it be sufficient to say that men will not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God. Those would be Words spoken to Roman officials and The Words of The Law. As believers we should not be setting aside or promoting the passing of a SINGLE JOT OR TITTLE...should we?

The law was given to Israel,

You keep saying that, but as noted prior you have a mouth and are in this world. You may not be "of it" but you are "in it."

it was for the wicked and the ungodly, and it has nothing to do with our salvation. The law isn't for dead people.

The Law was clearly expressed to be against lawlessness which is OBVIOUSLY in the flesh of all mankind seeing that NONE can perform thereunder. In this way The Law PROVES us ALL as having "lawlessness" within our flesh including our minds and as such it is pointless to deny that working of The Law upon us ALL...

Which things do you have in mind?

In order to learn anything from The Law one must first bow to it's validity. As one who denies and resists The Law you will learn nothing but hardening from it and opposition to it.

The Sabbath teachings are of the Day when our burdens are released from us. Showing up in a building on Saturday or Sunday afternoon have little to do with the underlying score of The Law. The Law in this regards is a FORETELL to us of what is to come just as The Law foretold the Forthcoming of The Messiah.

squint prior: The role of the law is to make sin exceedingly sinful and to make the whole world stand guilty before God.[end]

True, and He also said that not one iota of it should pass until it is all fulfilled. I know that some take the stance that most of the law HAS been fulfilled, but the rest, like the ten commandment and a few others, still stand and await fulfilment. But I believe that if you're under the law, you're under the ENTIRE law.

The lawlessness that abides in our flesh, and all flesh, is under the entirety of The Law and it is so as ETERNALLY CONDEMNED.

Jesus never said that the law was for anybody but Israel

Who is The Jew but one is a Jew "inwardly?"

Romans 2:
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

or that it should ever come to be for anybody but Israel. But that doesn't really matter, because in Christ we aren't jew or gentile anyway. We are new creations.

New creations do not deny The Word of our Father, but rather as Paul, establish it's validity by the undeniable proof that The Law contains in the exposure and revealings of lawlessness in the flesh of mankind without exception, for all have sinned whether under The Law or apart from that same Law and none Save One had or have "sinless" flesh, which that Law and Jesus, The Living Word remain firmly and unequivocally AGAINST.

enjoy!

squint

 

[holo]

squint,
I basically agree with you. My issue is with people who insist or suggest that I, as a gentile and a believer, should try to live according to the law (most often they're only talking about a small portion of the law, though).

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The law is for the wicked and ungodly, not for the righteous. I couldn't "keep" the law even if I wanted to, just lik you can't keep Japanese law if you are in Germany. Dead people can't keep the law, either.

And again, has the law really been changed? What happened to the other 603 commandments? And when was the law given to gentiles as well as Israel? I haven't seen that happening in the bible...

But Holo the saints in Revelation 14 who do not take the mark of the beast keep the commandments of God. Also the remnant of the true church do keep the commandments of God in Revelation 12.

You guys say that keeping away from the commandments moves us further away from sin. The bible on the other hand says that sin is lawlessness. Paul says the commandments are holy just and good.

In the old covenant when a man sinned he had to offer sacrifices and keep rituals and the priest had to make atonements and so on.
In the new covenant when a man sins all he has to do if confess his sins and God will forgive him.
Was sin in the old covenant different to sin in the new covenant?
Paul says that by the law is the knowledge of sin and John says that sin is the transgression of the law. Sin is lawlessness and that is why there is grace.

In the old covenant when a man broke God's 10 commandments he had to offer sacrifices. In the new covenant when one breaks God's commandments God's grace will cover that sin as long as 1 John 1:9 is done.
The book of the Law written by Moses was the law that ordered sacrifices and rituals and commandments monthly Sabbaths. The book of Hebrews clearly states that this book of the law was abolished because it was no longer relevant since the death of Jesus.

Run however far you want. The bible says that once a man has love he fulfills the law. Fulfill meaning to carry out. When a man has love he will keep God's commandments.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

You cannot be a gentile and a believer. Any man who believes in Christ becomes Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham's seed cannot be called gentiles but Jews. Not physically but spiritually.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

squint,
I basically agree with you. My issue is with people who insist or suggest that I, as a gentile and a believer, should try to live according to the law (most often they're only talking about a small portion of the law, though).

But you are subject to the law of God, that's if you consider yourself of the Spirit.

Aren't you subject to the Greatest Commandment?

Marc

 

[holo]

But Holo the saints in Revelation 14 who do not take the mark of the beast keep the commandments of God. Also the remnant of the true church do keep the commandments of God in Revelation 12.

I don't think the saints will be too busy trimming their beards and sacrificing animals...

You guys say that keeping away from the commandments moves us further away from sin. The bible on the other hand says that sin is lawlessness. Paul says the commandments are holy just and good.

The commandment is good, but it is also the power of sin. When the commandment came, sin sprang to life. Apart from the commandment, sin is dead. It happened in Eden, and it's happening now. When the commandment comes, sin springs to life. As soon as something is forbidden, the serpent has a way of tempting people with it. There's a reason man wasn't even supposed to know right from wrong to begin with...

In the old covenant when a man sinned he had to offer sacrifices and keep rituals and the priest had to make atonements and so on.
In the new covenant when a man sins all he has to do if confess his sins and God will forgive him.

But God forgave sin long before the law came, though.

Paul says that by the law is the knowledge of sin

Yes, the exact knowledge that God FORBADE Adam and Eve to have!

and John says that sin is the transgression of the law. Sin is lawlessness and that is why there is grace.

The bible also says that sin is whatever is not of faith. I can't break the mosaic law any more than I can break Japanese law. Well, I supposed I could actually go to Japan and try to keep their laws, but as far as the mosaic law goes, I'm DEAD. So I couldn't keep it even if I wanted to.

The book of the Law written by Moses was the law that ordered sacrifices and rituals and commandments monthly Sabbaths. The book of Hebrews clearly states that this book of the law was abolished

No, it doesn't. In fact, the bible NEVER talks about PART of the law being abolished. Instead, it says that the ENTIRE law stands forever. Either the ENTIRE law stands, or NONE of the law stands.

 

[holo]

Run however far you want. The bible says that once a man has love he fulfills the law. Fulfill meaning to carry out. When a man has love he will keep God's commandments.

God has already poured out His love in my heart, but I still have never had any urge whatsoever to trim my beard because of that, or to wear certain robes and so forth. God has never commanded me to observe the sabbath either. God's commandments to me are NOT some part of the mosaic law.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

But you are subject to the law of God, that's if you consider yourself of the Spirit.

Aren't you subject to the Greatest Commandment?

Marc

If he is not subject to love God then how can he expect ot be saved. If a man does not love God he will not save him. Neither will God save a man who does not love his neighbors. So if the first 4 commandments show love to God and the last 6 show love to your fellow man then what is the problem.

 

[holo]

You cannot be a gentile and a believer. Any man who believes in Christ becomes Abraham's seed.

Exactly

A heir to Abraham, not to Moses.

 

[holo]

But you are subject to the law of God, that's if you consider yourself of the Spirit.

Aren't you subject to the Greatest Commandment?

Marc

No, Marc, I am not subject to the greatest commandment. I'm not subject to the least commandment either.

So, yet again, my answer to The Question That Refused To Die is still... "no."

The mosaic law was given to Israel only, as the bible says, it is for the wicked and ungodly, as the bible says, so obviously I as a saved, born-again righteous person cannot be under that law.

 

[holo]

If he is not subject to love God then how can he expect ot be saved. If a man does not love God he will not save him. Neither will God save a man who does not love his neighbors. So if the first 4 commandments show love to God and the last 6 show love to your fellow man then what is the problem.

My salvation isn't based on MY love for God, but on GOD's love for ME. He died for us while we were still His enemies. In fact, even the love I have in me is not my own. It's HIS love. It's a gift from HIM.

God has never saved people based on them keeping the ten commandments (or the rest of the law). In fact, if keeping the law saved you, you wouldn't need grace anyway. Salvation is from faith to faith. Not from works to faith, or from faith to works. Not from grace to law or from law to grace. It's from faith to faith, our ENTIRE salvation hangs on the grace of God and nothing else. That's the gospel.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

If he is not subject to love God then how can he expect ot be saved. If a man does not love God he will not save him. Neither will God save a man who does not love his neighbors. So if the first 4 commandments show love to God and the last 6 show love to your fellow man then what is the problem.

Because it's an excuse to say "I ain't under anything". The excuse is "I
m being led by the Spirit" Which obviously there are some that don't even know what that means.

Marc

 

[holo]

Because it's an excuse to say "I ain't under anything". The excuse is "I
m being led by the Spirit" Which obviously there are some that don't even know what that means.

For me it means, among other things, that instead of cursing people, I spontaneously began blessing even people who hated me. It also means that instead of stealing, I began sharing my stuff with people without asking anything in return. And it means that I wouldn't even dream of hurting people anymore. And so forth...

I really don't see the problem with that.

 

[squint]

squint,
I basically agree with you. My issue is with people who insist or suggest that I, as a gentile and a believer, should try to live according to the law (most often they're only talking about a small portion of the law, though).

Those who promote fleshly ordinances have no clue...and if we get that far we have stepped onto firmer ground.

The Law as it pertains to the flesh, yes EVEN with "believers" born again, spirit filled of whatever ilk will still PROVE the presence of sin indwelling...and this can never be denied, nor can the writings of The Law that are against that lawlessness.

So some who would promote following the Law by "external observance" will not only be bringing even more condemnation to themselves, but they actually empower and give place to that same lawlessness...

Interesting phenomenon when observed closely.

For example, just as we can see that The Law brought condemnation and disbursement of the people of Israel, The Word of Jesus Christ has brought an even worse fate to the Gentile believers.

How is that exactly? Well, that same lawlessness that abode in the flesh of Israel past (and present) has been ENHANCED in the Gentile Christian to the extent that they commit the very people we are to love, our neighbors and our fellow man, to be fried alive forever in conscious torture.

So the Law amplified sin in the flesh of Israel, and Jesus AMPLIFIED that working to the point where one cannot hate their fellow man any more than that...

So there you have the full revealing of Christ of the MAN OF SIN unto whom He is Against, and unto which MOST have been captured and they don't even know or realize that is what has transpired.

The serpent of old has grown to a Raging Dragon in preparation for final judgment, and that growing has transpired in BELIEVERS...yes even in other people who have picked up The Law of Moses in Islam...they too have fallen prey to the very working that The Law empowers...again an open testimony to the validity of the Working of both The Law and of our Christ in dealing with "the lawless."

go figure...

enjoy!

squint

 

[Tkjjc]

Those who promote fleshly ordinances have no clue...and if we get that far we have stepped onto firmer ground.

Goes without saying that those who promote certain Laws have indeed sunk themselves back into the quicksand.

The Law as it pertains to the flesh, yes EVEN with "believers" born again, spirit filled of whatever ilk will still PROVE the presence of sin indwelling...and this can never be denied, nor can the writings of The Law that are against that lawlessness.

Unless you free yourself of that mentality. You must overcome that, and put your flesh into submission of His will, which is "to be perfect, just as Father is perfect". Just as Jesus was perfect. You seem to think that it is literally impossible for the flesh to be perfect? How so, Jesus did it, and HE was without sin, and as A MAN. We have the benefit, and gift, because of His sacrifice, which wiped out our sin, and made us new.

So some who would promote following the Law by "external observance" will not only be bringing even more condemnation to themselves, but they actually empower and give place to that same lawlessness...

Agreed!

Interesting phenomenon when observed closely.

Yes, both say you must obey a Law of sin and death, when Christ came to redeem mankind from this very sin and death. He fulfilled and completed ALL there is to do. We are under a New Covenant, period. No longer the old, but a new. His death was the inaugurating effect which brought it in. The Law is easy, which is to Love. Like mankind needs this Law, but in case you do, there it is, a reminder of what Father wants from us. And if you say you "keep" it because you have to, you have missed it. I don't Love because I have to, but I choose to. My choice, my will.

For example, just as we can see that The Law brought condemnation and disbursement of the people of Israel, The Word of Jesus Christ has brought an even worse fate to the Gentile believers.

I agree because all we see is a harlot form of Christianity. They think that they are OSAS, and because of this belief will set up Anti-Christ in their hearts. They sin repeatedly with no guilt of it. For them there is no redemption, as they will be doomed for trampling the Blood of Christ, making His sacrifice of no effect, but having known the Truth, they traded it for a lie.

How is that exactly? Well, that same lawlessness that abode in the flesh of Israel past (and present) has been ENHANCED in the Gentile Christian to the extent that they commit the very people we are to love, our neighbors and our fellow man, to be fried alive forever in conscious torture.

How does a Law become "enhanced". How does a Christian commit one another to be "fried" forever? Interesting choice of words.

So the Law amplified sin in the flesh of Israel, and Jesus AMPLIFIED that working to the point where one cannot hate their fellow man any more than that...

Like they were supposed to, to start with? Both commandments He issued were quoted from Torah.

So there you have the full revealing of Christ of the MAN OF SIN unto whom He is Against, and unto which MOST have been captured and they don't even know or realize that is what has transpired.

And this is themselves. Quit looking for the boogie man, he is in the mirror. This is the face you should be seeing "dimly, face to face", until you don't see him any longer.

The serpent of old has grown to a Raging Dragon in preparation for final judgment, and that growing has transpired in BELIEVERS...yes even in other people who have picked up The Law of Moses in Islam...they too have fallen prey to the very working that The Law empowers...again an open testimony to the validity of the Working of both The Law and of our Christ in dealing with "the lawless."

go figure...

Christ DEALT with the the son of perdition, in the desert. It is up to us, with the Comforter's Help to overcome him as well. Yes, the serpent has grown into a dragon, but that is because we can't keep the dang believers from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and every time you eat it, he gets that much stronger. Strip that Dragon of his beauty, put him on his belly, and finally just stomp it out of your lives.

Anyone who says you HAVE NO CHOICE BUT to sin, is a lier and the Truth is not in him. No where in scripture, after Jesus died, did the Apostles talking with believers say that you have no choice but to sin, but instead, that you can become perfect and overcome the flesh, by living through Christ, in Christ, and becoming part of the Body of Christ. John when talking in his first letter deals with first the relaying the message from God, in full, and then moves on to the Children, Young Men, and finally Fathers, which are nothing but different stages of Christian growth. Which is why it seems there is a contradiction, but there isn't.

Pure Faith and Pure Love in Jesus the Christ and Father casts all fear aside. In this you live, sin free, because you want to, not because you have to. This is Love. To Love is giving yourself to something greater than yourself, willingly. No greater Love has one for another, than the one who lays His life down for His friends. NONE. I gladly give my life to Jesus, fully and completely.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I don't think the saints will be too busy trimming their beards and sacrificing animals..

They will not because the ceremonial system is passed away. You seem not to agree that the saints will be keeping the commandments.

The commandment is good, but it is also the power of sin. When the commandment came, sin sprang to life. Apart from the commandment, sin is dead. It happened in Eden, and it's happening now. When the commandment comes, sin springs to life. As soon as something is forbidden, the serpent has a way of tempting people with it. There's a reason man wasn't even supposed to know right from wrong to begin with...

The fact is that we know. You put so much blame on the commandments but it was God who gave it. It was God that told Adam and Eve not to eat of that particular tree. That was the first command. Had God not made that command then Adam and Eve would not be wrong to eat of that tree. God never intended for man to be like robots. He wants men to love and obey him by choice not by fate.
Remember that in the new covenant the law is placed in our heart. We internalize the law. We don't need tables of stone because the law is in our minds and hearts. God's will was for Adam and Eve to obey him but they didn't. God's will is for us to keep his commandments but we don't all the time. That is why Jesus died on the cross to save us from those sins that we commit.

But God forgave sin long before the law came, though.

That is because the law was written on the hearts of men. God only gave the 10 commandments to Moses because the Israelites were so rebellious that they needed a visual reminder. Abraham knew it was wrong when he took Hagar as his wife but there was no written law about adultery.

Yes, the exact knowledge that God FORBADE Adam and Eve to have!

The fact is that we all have that knowledge of sin and what we have to do try not to sin. But if any man sins he has an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

The bible also says that sin is whatever is not of faith. I can't break the mosaic law any more than I can break Japanese law. Well, I supposed I could actually go to Japan and try to keep their laws, but as far as the mosaic law goes, I'm DEAD. So I couldn't keep it even if I wanted to.

When you say the Mosaic Law are you referring to the law Moses wrote in a book in Deuteronomy 31 that was placed on the side of the ark of the covenant in contrast to God's 10 commandments which were placed inside the ark protected by the very presence of God?
If you don't see a difference than the bible will be contradicting itself many times for keeping the book of the law shows a lack of faith and keeping God's commandments are as a result of faith. I can prove it biblically.

No, it doesn't. In fact, the bible NEVER talks about PART of the law being abolished. Instead, it says that the ENTIRE law stands forever. Either the ENTIRE law stands, or NONE of the law stands.

I'm going to feed my dogs. When i come back i will prove it.

 

[HisbyAdoption]

I don't think the saints will be too busy trimming their beards and sacrificing animals..

They will not because the ceremonial system is passed away. You seem not to agree that the saints will be keeping the commandments.

The commandment is good, but it is also the power of sin. When the commandment came, sin sprang to life. Apart from the commandment, sin is dead. It happened in Eden, and it's happening now. When the commandment comes, sin springs to life. As soon as something is forbidden, the serpent has a way of tempting people with it. There's a reason man wasn't even supposed to know right from wrong to begin with...

The fact is that we know. You put so much blame on the commandments but it was God who gave it. It was God that told Adam and Eve not to eat of that particular tree. That was the first command. Had God not made that command then Adam and Eve would not be wrong to eat of that tree. God never intended for man to be like robots. He wants men to love and obey him by choice not by fate.
Remember that in the new covenant the law is placed in our heart. We internalize the law. We don't need tables of stone because the law is in our minds and hearts. God's will was for Adam and Eve to obey him but they didn't. God's will is for us to keep his commandments but we don't all the time. That is why Jesus died on the cross to save us from those sins that we commit.

But God forgave sin long before the law came, though.

That is because the law was written on the hearts of men. God only gave the 10 commandments to Moses because the Israelites were so rebellious that they needed a visual reminder. Abraham knew it was wrong when he took Hagar as his wife but there was no written law about adultery.

Yes, the exact knowledge that God FORBADE Adam and Eve to have!

The fact is that we all have that knowledge of sin and what we have to do try not to sin. But if any man sins he has an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

The bible also says that sin is whatever is not of faith. I can't break the mosaic law any more than I can break Japanese law. Well, I supposed I could actually go to Japan and try to keep their laws, but as far as the mosaic law goes, I'm DEAD. So I couldn't keep it even if I wanted to.

When you say the Mosaic Law are you referring to the law Moses wrote in a book in Deuteronomy 31 that was placed on the side of the ark of the covenant in contrast to God's 10 commandments which were placed inside the ark protected by the very presence of God?
If you don't see a difference than the bible will be contradicting itself many times for keeping the book of the law shows a lack of faith and keeping God's commandments are as a result of faith. I can prove it biblically.

No, it doesn't. In fact, the bible NEVER talks about PART of the law being abolished. Instead, it says that the ENTIRE law stands forever. Either the ENTIRE law stands, or NONE of the law stands.

I'm going to feed my dogs. When i come back i will prove it.

Been refuted through scripture brother.. The torah is as much the law of Moses as the ceremonial was.. We are the seed of Abraham which did not come under the law but was declared righteous because He believed God.. We are his seed in that we have been declared righteous because we Believe in His Son Jesus Christ our Lord..

 

[PROPHECYKID]

My salvation isn't based on MY love for God, but on GOD's love for ME. He died for us while we were still His enemies. In fact, even the love I have in me is not my own. It's HIS love. It's a gift from HIM.

God has never saved people based on them keeping the ten commandments (or the rest of the law). In fact, if keeping the law saved you, you wouldn't need grace anyway. Salvation is from faith to faith. Not from works to faith, or from faith to works. Not from grace to law or from law to grace. It's from faith to faith, our ENTIRE salvation hangs on the grace of God and nothing else. That's the gospel.

So you don't believe that you should love God with all your heart which is the greatest commandment. You also believe that God will save people that do not love him. Then that means that everyone will be saved whether they love him or not.

Jesus says of you love me keep my commandments.
If you break one of them then you need God's grace. Once you have God's grace you are saved. But you must have love to start that process. If i don't love God i would not care about his grace. God does not push grace down our throats. A man who loves God will accept grace. A man who loves God will Love God with all his heart which is the greatest commandment.