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Yahweh's Moedim (Feasts) FOREVER!

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by HARK!, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    As long as Israel was walking in obedience to YHWH, their sacrifices and offerings were a pleasing aroma to Him. They covered over their sins enough to allow them to come before their holy Elohim. We now have a far more efficacious sacrifice in Yeshua who, through his shed blood, allows us entrance into the holy of holies in the heavenly sanctuary. Yeshua ministers in that sanctuary daily and it is his job to offer the blood necessary for people who sin. Israel in the flesh needed to bring an animal to the priest if they sinned. We have an ongoing sacrifice in Yeshua and need not bring them anymore, but we must still keep the days holy as He commanded. We also now offer the sacrifices of praise, prayer, helping others, and other spiritual sacrifices. This can be done on any day. One need not abolish a holy day in order to offer spiritual sacrifices. The apostles certainly did not abolish Shavuot because sacrifices were fulfilled in Yeshua. In fact, they continued to keep Shavuot and other feasts apart from the Temple. Paul kept unleavened bread outside of Jerusalem. The Temple was not necessary to keep the Feasts or Sabbath. He also told us to "keep the feast" (of unleavened bread) with spiritual unleavened bread (1 Corinthians 5:8) even though sacrifices were fulfilled.
     
  2. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic leaning Lutheran Staff Member Hands-on Trainee Supporter

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    Yes, if there were a Temple we would need to keep the sacrifices, as instructed, depending on if we are Jewish or Gentile. When the temple is built again the sacrifices will continue with the priests as in before 70ad. Yeshua's sacrifice is a metaphorical sacrifice in the heavenly temple, it was not a literal sacrifice to replace our earthly sacrifice. The earthly temple is a shadow (in a good way) of the heavenly temple. While His sacrifice atones forever, the other commanded sacrifices, which were not for sin atonement, will need to continue. This is actually a pretty basic belief among most Messianic Jewish people, and most rabbinic Jewish people.
     
  3. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic leaning Lutheran Staff Member Hands-on Trainee Supporter

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    Only if they sinned unknowingly. Most sin was atoned for with prayer and/or direct asking for forgiveness or reparations. Much as it still is in Judaism, minus the Temple of course. Most offerings were not for sin.
    This is a misunderstaning of the sacrifice that Yeshua made, one that many mainstream Christians also believe. Accroding to scriupture, if the Temple existed, we would still need to make a sacrifice on Earth (depending on if we were Jewish or Gentile). The sacrifice is heavenly, metaphorical.
    Absolutely, just as it has always been in Judaism, actually. Again, most sin was atoned for outside the Temple and through prayer, etc.

    Ironically, the early believers could have been deemed a Temple sect. Early texts make it clear that they went to the temple daily, made sacrifices when needed, and met at the temple. It is only after the temple was destroyed (or in the diaspora) that the sect became more synagogue focused.
     
  4. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I am not questioning anyone's obedience.
    The Levitical priesthood was needed to make sacrifices.
    There are no instructions on how to keep the feast without the Levitical priesthood.
    Because there was a change of priesthood there was also a change of law.
    And in the Melchizedek priesthood there are no sacrifices made by Jesus.
    The feasts can't be kept today in the way YHWH prescribed them.
    If you want to remember them and what they stood for, great.
    Just don't go around telling everybody else if they don't observe the feast they are out of God's will.
     
  5. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Not true. Jesus sat down after He did His work.
    Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    I am not saying he is up there offering animal sacrifices for us. By virtue of his one time atoning sacrifice, his blood is always available.
     
  7. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    He is sitting down, He does not get up each time someone sins or gets converted.
    Sin has been put away by Jesus' sacrifice.
    The Lamb of God took away the sin of the world.
    This will not do anyone any good if they won't accept the payment Jesus made.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    When I said, "Yeshua ministers in that sanctuary daily", I did not say how he was doing it. If he has been sitting down since his ascension until now, so be it. The fact is, he IS ministering in the heavenly sanctuary.

    Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
    Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
    Also, the fact that Yeshua took away the sin of the world does not mean we no longer sin. He ever lives to make intercession for us and his blood is ever cleansing us when we confess our sins.
     
  9. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Never said we did stop sinning.
    But, the punishment for sin is gone if we accept Christ's payment.

    We are way off topic here, we should get back to the feasts.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    All of them?

    How about these?:

    (CLV) Ro 12:1
    I am entreating you, then, brethren, by the pities of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice, living, holy, well pleasing to God, your logical divine service,


    (CLV) 1Pt 2:5
    you, also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, into a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, most acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

    What was the change? Didn't the Levitical Priesthood, and the Priesthood of Melchizedek, coexist?

    So Yahshua didn't make a sacrifice?

    None of them? Not even Yom Teruah? Can you prove this?

    I've never told anyone that they're out of, nor in, YHWH's will. It's not my place. I wouldn't even guess. That's for YHWH to decide; but it's a fair guess that he might show more favor if I do his will.
     
  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    I agree.

    I agree.
     
  12. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Didn't say all of them, just the feasts in the chapter you posted at the beginning.
    All of those require blood sacrifices.
    These are not blood sacrifices.

    There is no record of any priest of Melchizedek in existence while the Levitical priesthood was in effect.

    Yes He did. It was a one-time sacrifice, never to be repeated.

    That is not one of the feasts mentioned in your OP.

    No, but many people do.
    Even going to the point of saying if we do not keep the feasts we are in unrepentant sin and are no longer saved.
    Whether you keep the feast or not will not grant you favor with God.
    Faith is the only thing that pleases God. You cannot please Him without it. Hebrews 11:6
     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    The High Priest to King David and King Solomon was Zadok. The first High Priest in The Temple of Solomon was Zadok. The last High Priest to serve in The Temple of Solomon was Jehozadak (Yahweh Zadok). The first High Priest in The Temple of Herod was Yahshua III from The House of
    Zadok. The High Priest at the time Yahshua was born was Yahshua ben Sie or Yahshua V from The House of Zadok. The Eternal High Priest Yahshua the Messiah is from The House of Zadok.



    Yes it is. See #5.

    Faith without works is dead.

    Obedience to YHWH doesn't please YHWH?
     
  14. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Was he not a son Aaron?

    Sorry my bad. But it still requires an offering made by fire.

    Works don't please God, Faith pleases God.
    If you are keeping the feast by faith, OK. But if you are keeping the Feast to please God, then no, it is not pleasing to God.
     
  15. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    Faith produces good works which we were ordained to do. Faith establishes the law because it produces obedience in us.
     
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    Based on this brief statement, I would have to disagree, but this is a discussion for a different thread where you can elaborate more on the Scriptures you are referring to and how you interpret them without derailing this thread.
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Book of Numbers 25:13
    Phineas the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest. Behold I give to him my
    covenant of peace, and will be his, and his progeny after him, (a) covenant of
    everlasting priesthood in turn of his zealousness for his God, and he atoned for
    the sons of Israel


    Ezra 7:1-4
    ...Zadok, The son of Ahitub, son of Amaryah, son of Azaryah, son of Mirayoth,
    son of Zerachyah, son of Uzzi, son of Bukki, son of Avishua, son of Phineas






    (CLV) Hb 13:21
    be adapting you to every good work to do His will, doing in us what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!
     
  18. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    The law does not produce obedience.
    Faith in us working by love produces good works Galatians 5:6
    By the law is the knowledge of sin.
    The strength of sin is the law.

    If the law could have produced obedience in us, Adam and Eve would not have sinned.
    The children of Israel would not have died in the wilderness.
    The whole nation would not have gone into captivity for 70 years.

    Faith establishes the law because nobody could keep the law.
    We had to be justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    But how would anyone know that they were not justified/innocent if it weren't for the law?
    So yes, faith establishes the law. Not for the righteous but for the unrighteous. 1 Timothy 1:5-13

    What is the reason for keeping the feasts?
    What will happen if the feasts are not kept?
     
  19. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    I didn't say the law produces obedience. I said faith produces obedience to the law. If we refuse to obey the law or break the law and sin, it shows a lack of faith.

    You are mixing justification with obedience. Apples and oranges. We are justified by faith and faith produces obedience to the law.

    We keep the feasts because YHWH has commanded them. Each feast is holy time that YHWH does not want polluted by His people. They are there to teach us His plan of salvation; to provide time for us to worship Him when He wants us to; to provide times of special fellowship for His people; to be a proof that His Word is true in providing types and shadows of things that had or will have a fulfillment thousands of years later; and to provide time for His people to dig into the Word.

    If they are not kept, His people will be misguided in their understanding of His plan of salvation; they will lose out on blessings to be had through keeping them; and they will lose out on rewards (not salvation) in the Kingdom because of their refusal to obey.
     
  20. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    So the feasts are like the law in the respect that they are a tutor to teach us the way to Christ.
    But now that we are in Christ and Christ is in us, does this reason still apply?

    The time is now when we worship in Spirit and truth. John 4:23-24 And we come together a lot. The 1st century Christians met every day
    for breaking of bread and prayers.
    We have the reality of the shadow. Why do we still want the shadow?
    I am confused by this reason.

    We inherit the promises through faith and patience. Hebrews 6:12
    With all due respect I just don't see the reason for keeping the feasts.
    I do understand needing to know what each Feast represents and how they point to Christ.
     
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