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Yahweh's Moedim (Feasts) FOREVER!

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by HARK!, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    There are many reasons for keeping the Moedim, some for different reasons, and some for the same. As has been said, or at least, implied, throughout this thread that there are reasons that I'm not even aware of.

    The most obvious reason is right in the title of this thread. You can talk about all of the changes, all that you want in this thread; and what you present might have significance. However, it is an axiom that before one can commit the first letter to the virtual paper of this thread; one still has get past the title of the thread. Have you guessed this very most obvious reason yet? No one but I has yet to talk about it here. Yet it was only mentioned in the very title, and the original post, of the thread.

    Here is a hint:

    What do you suppose "FOREVER" means?
     
  2. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Again:

     
  3. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    All has yet to be fulfilled. The reality is not of this world. The reality is in YHWH's Kingdom.

    Not our will, but our Father's will be done. What does "forever" mean?
     
  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    1 John 5:3

    King James 2000 Bible

    For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome.

    With all due respect, will you be celebrating the upcoming Christmas and Easter events, with all of their Pagan symbolism? If so, for what reason?
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    When you graduated from high school did you throw away everything your teachers taught you because you were under a much better teacher in college? They not only taught us the way to Messiah, they taught us they way OF Messiah. Yeshua's ways are YHWH's ways and YHWH's ways (Torah) are written on hearts and minds under the New Covenant. Yeshua kept Torah perfectly. That was his way. He is our example of obedience out of love.

    The 1st century believers also met on Pentecost and Unleavened Bread (two feasts that were supposedly fulfilled). They did not do so by accident or by coincident. They purposely did so because they were appointed feasts. We are welcomed and encouraged to worship YHWH and meet for fellowship as often as we want, but we are NOT to neglect worshiping on the specific times YHWH appointed for us to worship.

    You say we have the reality, but we don't. We only have the reality of Yeshua fulfilling the Passover lamb and animal sacrifices. Messiah our Passover is sacrificed for us ... therefore, let us keep the feast (of Unleavened Bread). Had the disciples believed like you and failed to gather together of the 50th day (Pentecost), they would not have received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Another outpouring is coming (the latter rain). You will lose out on that because you will not be obeying YHWH by keeping that day holy and gathering to worship Him.

    The feasts do more than just "point to Christ". They point to the necessity of us becoming unleavened; the resurrection of the first fruits of believers; the Day of YHWH; the resurrection of the rest of the harvest; the Kingdom to come when the Father Himself will tabernacle with us.

    Faith includes obedience to the law (works that we were ordained to walk in).
     
  7. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Well said!

    Glory to YHWH!
     
  8. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    YHWH said in Exodus 40:15 that the Levitical priesthood was to everlasting. Then in Hebrews 7:12
    For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    The priesthood and the law were changed.
    You can say this was just a transfer, but why would we want to go back to before it was transferred?
    The Levitical priesthood will be active again, but it is not active now.

    Earlier when I mentioned the Melchizedek priesthood, you brought up Jehozadak as an example of the Melchizedek priesthood, but he cannot be as we know who his earthly father is.
    He doesn't fit the requirements of Hebrews 7:3
    Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
     
  9. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I celebrate CHRISTmas. I give gifts because I have received a wonderful gift. I remember that Christ came for me.
    Easter just happens to conincide with the day we celebrate the Resurrection of our LORD.

    1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    (CLV) Jer 10:2
    Thus says Yahweh: The way of the nations, do not learn, And by the signs of the heavens, do not be dismayed, Though the nations are being dismayed by them.

    (CLV) Jer 10:3
    Indeed concerning the statutes of the peoples, it all is vanity, For one cuts it down, a tree from the wildwood, The work of an artificer's hands with an adz;

    (CLV) Jer 10:4
    With silver and with gold he makes it lovely; With nails and with hammers they fasten it, so that it cannot quaver.




    Deuteronomy 12:29-32
    “When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”



    Deuteronomy 12:3-4New Living Translation (NLT)
    3 Break down their altars and smash their sacred pillars. Burn their Asherah poles and cut down their carved idols. Completely erase the names of their gods!

    4 “Do not worship the Lord your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods

    Do you do the tree, and egg laying bunnies, or any of the other Pagan rituals associated with these celebrations? If so, why? Why not celebrate YHWH's Moedim, in honor of YHWH and Yahshua?
     
  11. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec. 25. I know that was not the actual day of His birth, but we don't know the exact day, so one day is as good as another.
    And no, I do not bother with ornaments or even a tree.
    I celebrate the Resurrection of Christ.
    I don't bother with easter bunnies and easter eggs.
    I will eat a chocolate bunny, but that is because I really like chocolate.
    Sometimes I will go out for breakfast and have eggs.
    And I love to watch Bugs Bunny.
    And as far as any pagan rituals go, no I don't do anything like that.
    I do make it a point to make sure people know the reason for the season is Jesus Christ.
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    You're looking at this superficially.

    Let's look a little closer. “Melchi” means ruler or King and Zadok (zedek) means righteous priest . This is the title of the High Priest. There can only be one high priest at a time. That priesthood is passed down from the previous High Priest. There can be many priests at work simultaneously, but only one MelchiZadok at a time.


    You can learn more about the line of priests descending from Zadok here:

    Zadok - Wikipedia

    (CLV) 1Ch 24:1
    As for the sons of Aaron, these were their apportionments: Aaron's sons were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar.

    (CLV) 1Ch 24:2
    Yet Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and there were not sons for them; so Eleazar and Ithamar served as priests.

    (CLV) 1Ch 24:3
    David, acting with Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, apportioned them for their supervision in their service.

    Ezra 7:1-4
    ...Zadok, The son of Ahitub, son of Amaryah, son of Azaryah, son of Mirayoth,
    son of Zerachyah, son of Uzzi, son of Bukki, son of Avishua, son of Phineas

    The Hebrew Bible relates how, at the time Phineas son of Eleazar appeased God's anger,
    he merited the divine blessing of God:

    Book of Numbers 25:13

    Phineas
    the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest. Behold I give to him my
    covenant of peace, and will be his, and his progeny after him, (a) covenant of
    everlasting priesthood in turn of his zealousness for his God, and he atoned for
    the sons of Israel


    This is very important in order to reconcile where Yahshua obtained his right to atone for sin. Only the Mechizadok has this authority. He must have come from the lineage of Zadok, under the Covenant of Peace, Covenant of Eternal High Priest, and the right to atone for sin.

    The High Priest position had become for sale under Rome. They were frauds.


    High Priest Yahshua III had three daughters. Of those daughter, one gave birth to Yochanan the Baptist. Another Gave birth to Yahshua HaMashiach. Yochanan was first in line to the MelchiZadok. Yahshua HaMashiach was second in line. Sort of gives that mikveh by Yochanan to Yahshua a purpose; no?
     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    The way I have it figured, Yahshua was born during Sukkot. You might want to look into that, instead of holding onto that Babylonian sun worship day. There is very strong evidence that he wasn't born on Dec 25.
     
  14. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    Sometimes it coincides, sometimes it is a whole month off.

    These verses speak of ONE commandment, but 1 John 5:3 speaks of "commandments" (plural).
     
  15. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Like this. Birth of Jesus at Sukkot


    For a variety of reasons, some less valid than others, many people in Messianic Judaism have an aversion to celebrating the birth of our Master on the traditional Christian dates of December 25 or January 6. That aversion has inspired some Messianic communities to celebrate the birth of the Master on an alternate date in conjunction with the festival of Sukkot.

    The festival of “Tabernacles” provides an attractive option for theological reasons, such as: “The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us” (John 1:14). Sukkot is the season of our joy, an appropriate time to declare “joy to the world.” But is there any evidence of a historical tradition behind celebrating Yeshua’s birth at Sukkot? An early, Jewish, anti-Christian legend contains evidence that disciples of Yeshua used to celebrate his birth at Sukkot.

    The Traditional Date
    When was Yeshua born? The Gospel writers either did not know when the event happened or they did not feel the information was important enough to pass along. We can only speculate.

    Two centuries after it happened, Clement of Alexandria discussed the dating of the Master’s birth, but he did not mention December 25 or January 6 at all. Instead, Clement reported one tradition corresponding to April 20 on our civil calendar and another tradition corresponding to May 20. By the middle of the fourth century, however, the Roman church had begun to honor December 25 while churches in the East, Asia Minor, and Egypt observed Jesus’ birth on January 6. Both are late developments and unsupported by early tradition or biblical evidence. No trace of a tradition from the early Jewish believers connects the birth of the Messiah with December 25 or January 6.

    Some speculate that the church associated the birth of Christ with the winter solstice and assume that the church chose December 25 as a matter of syncretism with older religious ideas about sun-worship and the birth of demigods. This may be the case, but Christians of the period were in a bitter struggle against paganism and generally shunned such associations.1

    In any case, some practitioners of Messianic Judaism tend to gravitate away from the December 25 Christmas date because of its negative associations within the Jewish community and because of presumed associations with paganism. To replace the Christmas celebration, some believers within Messianic Judaism celebrate the birth of the Messiah during Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles), but without any real justification other than theological convenience. One often hears spurious claims that try to prove the Sukkot date based upon the time when Zechariah’s course of the priesthood served in the Temple. Other Sukkot-theory proponents claim, “Yeshua was born in a sukkah because the word ‘stable’ is sukkah in Hebrew.” These arguments are not at all convincing and fall apart under scrutiny. Is there any legitimate evidence of a sukkot birth, or is the birth of Yeshua at Sukkot just more Hebrew roots movement apocrypha?

    At the Appointed Time
    A loose “midrashic” line of approach advocates comparing the birth of John the Immerser to that of the Master. According to Luke 1:26 and 1:36, the conception of the Master followed that of John the Immerser by six months. If so, Yeshua’s birth should also follow John’s by the same interval. If one could determine when John the Immerser was born, he could determine when the Master was born.

    In the gospel of Luke, the angel Gabriel tells John’s father Zechariah that his aged, barren wife, Elizabeth, is about to conceive a child. Zechariah expresses skepticism. Gabriel punishes him by striking him temporarily mute. The story clearly alludes to the annunciation to Abraham and Sarah where the Angel of the LORD appears to the elderly couple to predict the birth of Isaac. Like Zechariah, Sarah expresses skepticism. In the gospel story, Gabriel tells Zechariah that he will be mute “until the day that these things take place … which will be fulfilled in their [appointed] time” (Luke 1:20). Gabriel’s prediction alludes to Genesis 18:14 when the angel told Abraham, “At the appointed time I will return to you … and Sarah will have a son.”2 In the Torah, the biblical festivals are called “appointed times.” According to one Jewish interpretation, “the appointed time” at which Sarah gave birth to Isaac was the first day of Passover:

    And how do we know that Isaac was born at Passover? Because it is written, “At the appointed time I will return to you [… and Sarah will have a son].” (b.Rosh Hashanah 11a)

    In the Gospels, John the Immerser comes in the role and spirit of Elijah. Jewish tradition maintains that Elijah will appear at Passover to announce the coming of the Messiah. For that reason, we read Malachi’s prophecy about the coming of the Messiah on the Sabbath before Passover, and Jewish homes set a place at the Passover Seder table for Elijah.3 If John the Immerser was “the Elijah who is to come” (Matthew 11:14), is it not reasonable to assume that his birth took place at the “appointed time” of Passover? And if John the Immerser was born on Passover, then the Master should have been born six months later at the onset of the Feast of Tabernacles.

    Sukkot in Bethlehem
    Yeshua was born in Bethlehem. Perhaps Joseph and Mary planned their trip to Bethlehem to coincide with the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem. The gospel indicates that they were scrupulous to attend the pilgrimage festivals in Jerusalem, and traveling with a pilgrimage caravan from Galilee could have provided them safety on the journey. The pilgrimage might also help account for the no-vacancy signs at the local inns in Bethlehem.

    A Sukkot context to the story also accounts for the angelic greetings of “Hosanna in the highest!”—a pilgrimage-festival salutation connected with the recitation of the Hallel at Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot.4

    The Eighth Day
    Eight days after the baby’s birth, Joseph circumcised the child. On that day, they gave him the name Gabriel announced to Mary at the time of the conception, the same name an angel revealed to Joseph in a dream.

    The last day of the Sukkot is an additional festival day that the Torah calls “The Eighth Day” (Leviticus 23:36, 39). If Yeshua was born on the first day of the feast of Tabernacles, they must have circumcised him on the day called the “Eighth Day,” thereby literally fulfilling the scripture which says, “On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised” (Leviticus 12:3).

    Aggadta DeShim’on Kefa
    Admittedly, this is all speculative. The Gospels do not actually indicate that John was born on the first day of Passover, that Yeshua was born on the first day of Sukkot, or that he was circumcised on the eighth day of Sukkot. Nevertheless, there may be evidence that the early Jewish believers thought so.

    A medieval collection of anti-Christian Jewish folklore titled The Story about Shim’on Kefa (Aggadta DeShim’on Kefa, אגדתא דשמען כיפא) preserves Jewish traditions about the early Jewish believers and early Christians.5 Aggadta DeShim’on Kefa is similar to other fictional, Jewish apologetic legends like Toldedot Yeshu which contain anti-Christian legends that originated in the early days of Jewish-Christian polemics.

    In the story, the notable sages of the day are distressed by the number of Nazarenes among the Jewish people, and they are eager to find a way to easily distinguish between believers in Yeshua and other Jews. The story is set in the mid-apostolic era (circa 60 CE), but in reality, it better reflects second- and third-century interactions between Jewish believers and the larger Jewish community. In the story, the sages use the influence of a sage named Shim’on Kefa (Simon Peter) to help push Jewish believers away from Torah observance and Jewish identity. Their goal is to separate the believers from the rest of Judaism. With Simon Peter’s help, the sages encourage the Jewish believers to abandon Sabbath observance and circumcision, and they prescribe a new liturgical calendar for the Jewish believers.

    This important and fascinating legend offers a glimpse of the sect of the Nazarenes from the perspective of mainstream Judaism. It attests to a collective, community memory of the Nazarene believers as Torah-keeping Jews who, at one time, were virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the Jewish community. The legend also tries to explain the evolution of Christianity as an anti-Jewish religion outside of Torah observance.

    The Three Pilgrimage Festivals
    In the legend, Simon Peter and the sages try to steer the believers away from keeping the three pilgrimage festivals: Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles (Chag HaMatzot, Shavuot, and Sukkot) in the same manner as the rest of the Jewish community. They accomplish this by assigning Messianic significance to each festival connected with Yeshua of Nazareth:

    You will not celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread (Chag HaMatzot) but instead celebrate the day of his death. And in the place of the festival of Shavuot, celebrate the forty days from his execution until after his ascension to the firmament. And in the place of the festival of Sukkot, you will celebrate the day of his birth, and on the eighth day from his birth, you will celebrate his circumcision. (Aggadta DeShim’on Kefa)

    The fictitious story attempts to credit the leadership of the Jewish community with the creation of Christianity, but what kind of Christianity is this? Church history tells us that second-century Christians (the so called Quartodecimans) did observe the day of the Master’s death on Passover (Nisan 14), and that all Christians observed the day of his ascension forty days after his resurrection, but who celebrated the day of his birth on Sukkot? Who celebrated the day of his circumcision “on the eighth day” of Sukkot?

    The source text behind Aggadta DeShim’on Kefa seems to reflect an era before the Christian custom of celebrating his birth in conjunction with the winter solstice. The legendary story remembers a time when believers still kept the biblical festivals but attached Messianic significance to their observance of the Jewish holy days. Since the believers in the story are Jewish, the legend may provide us a glimpse of the early Jewish believers celebrating the Master’s birth at the festival of Sukkot. If so, it offers some justification for reviving that lost tradition in the Messianic Jewish movement.

    Footnotes
    1. Alternatively, Andrew McGowan (“How December 25 Became Christmas,” n.p. [cited August 9, 2012]. Online: http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/christmas.asp) suggests that the December 25 date may have more to do with Jewish tradition than pagan superstitions. Jewish tradition prefers to depict a righteous man as living out his full number of years by dying on the anniversary of the day he was born. The Christian equivalent of this tradition was the belief that Jesus died on the anniversary of the day he was conceived. In early Christian tradition, Tertullian of Carthage (200 CE) dated the death of Yeshua to March 25 (Nisan 14), a date which later came to be celebrated as the Feast of Annunciation: “Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.”
    2. The LXX of Genesis 18:14 translates the Hebrew mo’ed (“appointed time,” מועד) with the Greek kairon(καιρὸν); Luke uses the same Greek word in 1:20. See the Delitzsch Hebrew English Gospels on Luke 1:20: “וְהֵם יִמָּלְאוּ בְּמוֹעֲדָם”.
    3. See Torah Club: Voice of the Prophets commentary on Haftarat Shabbat HaGadol.
    4. Compare Luke 2:14, 19:38; Mark 11:10. See Torah Club: Chronicles of the Messiah 1236-1238 and 1249-1250, notes 26-27.
    5. Aggadta DeShim’on Kefa in A. Jellinek, ed., Bet ha-Midrasch (Vienna: Brüder Winter; Herzfeld & Bauer, 1873 [available online at www.hebrewbooks.org]), 60-62. For an English summary of the contents, see Alfred Edersheim, “Haggadah About Simeon Kepha” in The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1993), 1057-1059. See also Toby Janicki, “Remembering Yeshua’s Chief Disciple: The Apostle Peter in Rabbinic Literature” messiah magazine 94 (2007): 22-23, 32. For an English translation of Aggadta DeShim’on Kefa, see Wout Van Bekkum, “The Rock on Which the Church is Founded” in Saints and Role Models in Judaism and Christianity (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 2004), 290-310.
    ADAPTED FROM: Messiah Journal # 111, Fall 2012/5773, First Fruits of Zion.
     
  16. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Is 2 not plural?
    One commandment to believe.
    One commandment to love.
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Today is Christmas day (Christ's mass). But for the first 300 years of Christianity, it wasn't so. When was Christmas first celebrated? In an old list of Roman bishops, compiled in A. D. 354 these words appear for A.D. 336: "25 Dec.: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae." December 25th, Christ born in Bethlehem, Judea. This day, December 25, 336, is the first recorded celebration of Christmas.

    The 1st Recorded Celebration of Christmas

    Constantine was the High Priest of the sungod Sol Invictus (invincible sun) and his coins remained inscribed “Sol Invicto Comiti” or “committed to the unconquered/invincible sun” to the day he died on May 22, 337 AD.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Eusebius' Life of Constantine, Book 3 chapter 18 records Constantine the Great as writing:

    "... it appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul. ... Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way."


    Theodoret’s Ecclesiastical History 1.9 records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present:

    “It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. … Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. … avoiding all contact with that evil way. … who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. … a people so utterly depraved. … Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. … no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews.”

    Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, volume 3, section 79, The Time of the Easter Festival states:

    "The feast of the resurrection was thenceforth required to be celebrated everywhere on a Sunday, and never on the day of the Jewish passover, but always after the fourteenth of Nisan, on the
    Sunday after the first vernal full moon. The leading motive for this regulation was opposition to Judaism, which had dishonored the passover by the crucifixion of the Lord. ... At Nicaea, therefore, the Roman and Alexandrian usage with respect to Easter triumphed, and the Judaizing practice of the
    Quartodecimanians, who always celebrated Passover on the fourteenth of Nisan, became thenceforth a heresy. Yet that practice continued in many parts of the East, and in the time of Epiphanius, about a.d. 400, there were many, Quartodecimanians, who, as he says, were orthodox, indeed, in doctrine, but in ritual were addicted to Jewish fables, and built upon the principle: “Cursed is every one who does not keep his passover on the fourteenth of Nisan.”

    Deuteronomy 27:26
    "Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying
    them out."

    Daniel 7:25

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    He will speak words against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High. He will intend to change religious festivals and laws, and the holy ones will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.
     
  19. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    1 John 5:3

    King James Bible

    For this is the love of God (tou theou, The God, YHWH), that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
     
  20. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew (Non-trinitarian)

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    Yes, I was tired last night and overlooked the "believe" part. The fact is, there are a lot more than two commandments for believers to follow as well (about 1050). Christians are quick to discard the 613 OT commands so they can keep the 1050 NT commands and then they call those who endeavor to keep all commands that are applicable to them "legalists" and "fallen from grace". :scratch:
     
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