Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Hmm]

What you're speaking of is Molinism, which is a possible solution to the Gordian knot but not necessarily the case. The problem is resolving all of God's qualities(omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, etc) without compromising one in favor of another. Ultimately, we have to be humble enough to throw up our hands and leave it to God. He knows how it works, even if we can't understand.

But are you really holding up your hands and leaving it to God when you say you don't believe in human free will simply in order that your philosophy can hold all these things together? That's making a pretty big assumption that is going to make a big difference to how you see yourself and other people.

 

[Cormack]

So then you're saying that the future accidentally comes in line with God's will in the end?

No. I’m saying what humanity often means for evil God can turn around for good. He doesn’t need to throttle creation at every micro second to ensure His will is being done, rather God permits evils for His greater good. Even greater good done “in the middle.”

“Permission” which Calvin himself called a foolish refuge or something to that effect. So permission isn’t one for the determinists (although they misuse it just as they misuse sovereignty.)

The late R. C. Sproul used to say if there were 1 rouge atom Gods plans would be in danger.

I was in shock. Really? God is endangered by rouge atoms and pirate particles, his plans are running scared from little specks of dust and four leaf clovers, he needs to put an end to libertarian freewill before it’s begun because He can’t win with it here?

I’m pretty sure the most incredible God isn’t the God who rigs the game so that He wins beforehand, it’s the God who can play against everyone in any game and still gets the victory.

 

[Fervent]

But are you really holding up your hands and leaving it to God when you say you don't believe in human free will simply in order that your philosophy can hold all these things together? That's making a pretty big assumption that is going to make a big difference to how you see yourself and other people.

I do believe in human free will, but I limit it to our intentions. God makes no compulsion, He does not force us into anything, we choose to do what He intends we do.

 

[Cormack]

God makes no compulsion, He does not force us into anything, we choose to do what He intends we do.

Compatiblism. That’s redefining freewill to mean “doing what you want to do,” but under that view God is the cause of what you want to do. That’s pure compulsion.

My dude you are a textbook Calvinist.

 

[Fervent]

No. I’m saying what humanity often means for evil God can turn around for good. He doesn’t need to throttle creation at every micro second to ensure His will is being done, rather God permits evils for His greater good. Even greater good done “in the middle.”

“Permission” which Calvin himself called a foolish refuge or something to that effect. So permission isn’t one for the determinists (although they misuse it just as they misuse sovereignty.)

The late R. C. Sproul used to say if there were 1 rouge atom Gods plans would be in danger.

I was in shock. Really? God is endangered by rouge atoms and pirate particles, his plans are running scared from little specks of dust and four leaf clovers, he needs to put an end to libertarian freewill before it’s begun because He can’t win with it here?

I’m pretty sure the most incredible God isn’t the God who rigs the game so that He wins beforehand, it’s the God who can play against everyone in any game and still gets the victory.

I don't claim "permission" or "secret will" but that God intends the evil we commit(though it is not intended for evil). God has a plan and a purpose for everything regardless of origin, He simply does not allow any evil that He has no purpose for. Often these discussions break down because the concept of "free will" is a broad one that isn't always clearly defined. I don't think anyone truly believes we can do whatever we want, whenever we want to. So God clearly restricts our wills, He confines them to a set of options. But our wills are free in the sense that our intentions genuinely originate with our persons rather than in God's person.

 

[Cormack]

"free will" is a broad one that isn't always clearly defined. I don't think anyone truly believes we can do whatever we want, whenever we want to.

Libertarian freewill = the ability to do otherwise in any given situation.

“I do whatever I wanna do” isn’t anyone’s definition of freewill, that’s a common strawman used by determinists.

 

[Cormack]

The reason freewill is a difficult topic is because we have a nations worth of Calvinists misusing the word sovereignty and strawmanning freewill everyday.

 

[Fervent]

Libertarian freewill = the ability to do otherwise in any given situation.

“I do whatever I wanna do” isn’t anyone’s definition of freewill, that’s a common strawman used by determinists.

I'm genuinely curious, are you just looking to argue? I haven't denied free will. You're pigeon-holing me into a category you insist I must be in, while not interacting with the full scope of what I am saying. Ultimately our wills are restricted and influenced by things like our brains, our opportunities, our cultural influences, and on and on. It's simply not dealing with reality to believe that everything we do is of our own volition, that there is not something exhibiting some kind of pressure on our wills. Nor do we have to be completely uninhibited in our wills in order for them to remain free in a meaningful sense.

 

[Cormack]

You're pigeon-holing me into a category you insist I must be in, while not interacting with the full scope of what I am saying.

The full scope of what you’re saying is a lot of who shot John. You know what who shot John means, right?

I don’t mind that you’re ignoring the fact that you continue to misuse the word sovereignty, so you have to appreciate that I’m interacting with what I believe is the most valuable part of your message. The parts I’m replying to are there to inform you.

Our wills being “influenced” doesn’t deny libertarian freewill in the same way that Gods foreknowledge doesn’t deny libertarian freewill.

What does deny libertarian freewill and what harms meaningful conversation is when you take up a question begging definition of sovereignty and then kick against labels that accurately define you.

 

[Fervent]

The full scope of what you’re saying is a lot of who shot John. You know what who shot John means, right?

I don’t mind that you’re ignoring the fact that you continue to misuse the word sovereignty, so you have to appreciate that I’m interacting with what I believe is the most valuable part of your message. The parts I’m replying to are there to inform you.

Our wills being “influenced” doesn’t deny libertarian freewill in the same way that Gods foreknowledge doesn’t deny libertarian freewill.

What does deny libertarian freewill and what harms meaningful conversation is when you take up a question begging definitions of sovereignty and then kick against labels that accurately define you.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. Does God control the physical laws of the universe? Does God control the circumstances of our births? Does God control the circumstances of our education, employment, and social lives? Which of those is outside of God's control?

 

[Cormack]

The best word to use would be govern. God governs those things that you’ve listed, again like the word sovereignty, for God to govern the affairs of man isn’t about whether or not He’s deterministically throttling the universe, it’s just about the fact that He is Lord over the living and the dead.

See originally you wanted to leave it in the hands of a mysterious God, but that’s not the cast, right? You want a deterministic Calvinist God who is “sovereign” (i.e. in control) over everything.

That’s not a mystery, that’s fatalism.

 

[Hmm]

I do believe in human free will, but I limit it to our intentions. God makes no compulsion, He does not force us into anything, we choose to do what He intends we do.

I read that a few times and I have to say, it makes no sense to me at all. It is completely self-contradictory.

It also directly contradicts what you say here (here, our intentions originate in us, not God but in the quote above, they originate in God, not us).

But our wills are free in the sense that our intentions genuinely originate with our persons rather than in God's person.

What is the point of having such a complicated philosophy anyway? Isn't it a lot easier to acknowledge that we have free will and bear the responsibility of that?

 

[Hmm]

Deleted duplicate post

 

[Cormack]

Deleted duplicate post

Like it anyway

 

[Hmm]

Like it anyway

You would probably like it if I deleted all my posts!

 

[Fervent]

I read that a few times and I have to say, it makes no sense to me at all. It is completely self-contradictory.

It also directly contradicts what you say here (here, our intentions originate in us, not God but in the quote above, they originate in God, not us).

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

What is the point of having such a complicated philosophy anyway? Isn't it a lot easier to acknowledge that we have free will and bear the responsibility of that?

"God knows, I don't." is not a complicated philosophy. Everything I have encountered testifies to the fact that I am not entirely free, but that does not mean there isn't a meaningful sense in which I am. Believing in libertarian free will is a luxury for those who have never struggled mental illness.

 

[Fervent]

The best word to use would be govern. God governs those things that you’ve listed, again like the word sovereignty, for God to govern the affairs of man isn’t about whether or not He’s deterministically throttling the universe, it’s just about the fact that He is Lord over the living and the dead.

See originally you wanted to leave it in the hands of a mysterious God, but that’s not the cast, right? You want a deterministic Calvinist God who is “sovereign” (i.e. in control) over everything.

That’s not a mystery, that’s fatalism.

"Governs" in what sense? Are you saying physical objects have a will?

 

[GallagherM]

Freedom. What is it?

Freedom is a noun - 1. The state of being free from the control or power of another

2. The right to act or move freely.

The Freedom of Christ is wonderful. No one is under the power or control of God either actually. We do have people who are in power as far as supervisors and governmental places, law enforcement, and presidents.

Have struggled with afflictions in my own life that had caused me to have bondage instead of freedom; such as being afflicted by pornography, and drugs in my own life.

Even as Children we have freedom; until we do something wrong; like if a Criminal is caught in a crime they go to Jail; they are not as free as they once where but they still have freedom at least inwardly to think, with using of logical thoughts, and what not.

So is man really free? To a certain extent we all are; unless you are under the influence and power of someone dominating over you or taking disciplinary actions over you only for a moment, or until the debt is paid; then you are free again to make your own choices.

When it comes to mentally ill; I do feel sorry for them, but they still would seem to have freedom even if they might be losing their mind due to dementia or whatever... at least inwardly in their (soul) it seems.

What are your thoughts?

Here is also the Greek word for Freedom:
eleutheria: liberty, freedom
Original Word: ἐλευθερία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eleutheria
Phonetic Spelling: (el-yoo-ther-ee'-ah)
Definition: liberty, freedom
Usage: freedom, liberty, especially: a state of freedom from slavery.

 

[Hmm]

"God knows, I don't." is not a complicated philosophy.

It's not but it's not a very useful one either having zero explanatory power.

Believing in libertarian free will is a luxury for those who have never struggled mental illness.

Why do you have to complicate things so much. Can't you just call free will?

Are you seriously saying that people with mental health problems have no sense of free will? Has any suffer actually told you that it is this just part of the fatalistic theory?

 

[Fervent]

It's not but it's not a very useful one either having zero explanatory power.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

Why do you have to complicate things so much. Can't you just call free will?

I'm not complicating anything, I just refuse to cut Gordian knots to satisfy my own desire to understand. Thus there is mystery, God is both in control and allows for freedom. I know not how, He has not told me.

Are you seriously saying that people with mental health problems have no sense of free will? Has any suffer actually told you that it is this just part of the fatalistic theory?

I personally suffer from bipolar disorder. The helplessness and loss of control one experiences during an episode makes it impossible to believe that there is not some compulsion of our beings. During a manic episode I cannot help myself from doing certain things, during severe depression I cannot make myself do anything.