Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[RickReads]

Do you feel it’s within the Lords power or amidst His prerogatives to relent from the threat of retribution? Reading from Jonah.

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.​

But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”​

But the Lord replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”
​

Perhaps modern Jonah could accuse God of having itchy ears or that the Lord is being beguiled by the serpents garden temptation.

Jokes aside don’t you also believe that God isn’t held hostage to His wrath, and although men might demand He act out on their behalf for vengeance sake, our wishes aren’t going to capsize His will.

I’m sure you’d agree with me that lots of people would be offended if they knew that their childhood bully or rude ex wife were going into heaven (despite the hurt they caused,) they’d want “justice” too.

It`s clear to me that God has reserved to right to judge howsoever He chooses and in fact, it baffles me how many Christians fail to see that. And so it is that my prayers are for mercy always.

But it`s quite a stretch to turn that into amnesty for the entire kingdom of darkness and its children.

 

[RickReads]

What if turns out that Hitler was demon possessed?

I believe that he was. Have you read "Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich"?, it was one of the last secular books that I read as a teen. Great book, I remember much of it to this very day.

 

[Hmm]

When it comes to mentally ill; I do feel sorry for them, but they still would seem to have freedom even if they might be losing their mind due to dementia or whatever... at least inwardly in their (soul) it seems.

I personally suffer from bipolar disorder. The helplessness and loss of control one experiences during an episode makes it impossible to believe that there is not some compulsion of our beings. During a manic episode I cannot help myself from doing certain things, during severe depression I cannot make myself do anything

Sorry to hear that but I don't know if embracing the notion that you don't have free will is ever healthy. Obviously free will doesn't mean we can do anything we want. We're not free to fly for example. And our mental state is sometimes out of our control as you say. But those episode pass hopefully and your freedom returns. It's s bit like sleeping isn't it - you don't exercise free will in your dreams but it's there as soon as you wake up and have had a cup of coffee.

 

[RickReads]

Since UR doesn't apply to me personally, there's not much for my ears to itch after. It's just an interesting topic.

What irks me some though, is those who seem to think that agonizing conscious eternal torment, is the only possible option in regard to justice, punishment and retribution being mete out.

LOL! It kinda irks me when Universalists try to advance their argument by treating all non-universalists as though they believe that is the only possible option.

Narrow premises like that are a hallmark of false doctrine, hence my complaint that I`ve yet to meet a universalist who could give me an honest case for believing it.

 

[GallagherM]

Sorry to hear that but I don't know if embracing the notion that you don't have free will is ever healthy. Obviously free will doesn't mean we can do anything we want. We're not free to fly for example. And our mental state is sometimes out of our control as you say. But those episode pass hopefully and your freedom returns. It's s bit like sleeping isn't it - you don't exercise free will in your dreams but it's there as soon as you wake up and have had a cup of coffee.

I do not understand.

There are things that can have master over you.

1 Corinthians 6:12 “Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything.

You can be mastered by the addictions of anything: drugs, sex, lust, greed, selfishness, being unkind to others, whatever is your influence that you have no self-control over.

I was Mastered over by hate, drugs, sex, lust, greed, hate, being unkind in my own life and hated Christians, and hated God, hated family, mom, dad, brother, sister.

Until one day I was finally set free; but even after conversion of allowing God in my life was still a very judgmental person from with-in my heart. Kept holding on to the Lord Jesus Christ and eventually my harden heart of darkness was changed.

Galatians 5:22-23 EASY
But God's Spirit causes us to live in a different way. We love other people. We are happy and we have peace in our minds. We are patient, kind and good. People can trust us to do what is right. We respect other people and we rule ourselves properly. God's Spirit helps us to live in that way. There is no law that says these things are wrong.


Galatians 5:22-23 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[Fervent]

Sorry to hear that but I don't know if embracing the notion that you don't have free will is ever healthy. Obviously free will doesn't mean we can do anything we want. We're not free to fly for example. And our mental state is sometimes out of our control as you say. But those episode pass hopefully and your freedom returns. It's s bit like sleeping isn't it - you don't exercise free will in your dreams but it's there as soon as you wake up and have had a cup of coffee.

I don't deny free will, I deny a specific formulation of free will in libertarian free will, or at least a notion of that that involves non-interference with our wills on God's end. Essentially, God knows everything about us. What would motivate us, what would deter us, how we react when we're hungry, tired, or any other situation we are placed on. Perfectly, not simply as a best guess but an exact knowledge. So He can fine-tune the universe so that every factor is perfect and every individual is placed in exactly the right place that what they intend and what He intends coinside. When we are presented with a choice, we do exactly what we want to do. Sometimes God needs to bolster something in us so that we will, or hinder sometthing else, but ultimately we are in control of ourselves. Take Pharoah, for instance. He hardened his heart 3 times before God hardened his heart. God did not place the intention to keep the Israelites in bondage in Pharaohs heart, simply kept him from relenting from what he wanted to do.

 

[Hmm]

There are things that can have master over you.

You can be mastered by the addictions of anything: drugs, sex, lust, greed, selfishness, being unkind to others, whatever is your influence that you have no self-control over.

I was Mastered over by hate, drugs, sex, lust, greed, hate, being unkind in my own life and hated Christians, and hated God, hated family, mom, dad, brother, sister.

Did you feel that you had no control whatsoever over your thoughts when you were caught up in all this?

 

[GallagherM]

It was just hatred and darkness. I had free will to do whatever. It was very hard for me to have self-control.

 

[Hmm]

When we are presented with a choice, we do exactly what we want to do.

I'm sure it's okay with you but you can see that it would be quite dangerous for some people to hold that philosophy - Hitler, step forward again.

 

[Fervent]

I'm sure it's okay with you but you can see that it would be quite dangerous for some people to hold that philosophy - Hitler, step forward again.

Do you think Hitler was compelled to do what he did? The issue is unless God intends the evil that exists in the world and has a purpose for it there is a serious problem. Such a God would either not be all good for not preventing evil that was in His power to prevent, or He is not all powerful for being helpless to prevent the evil. So if we are to maintain that God exists, He must have a purpose for every last bit of evil in the world without being stained by moral evil Himself by evil intent. If a surgeon refuses to cut a patient open and remove an enflamed appendix he has failed his duty. And while cutting itself is harmful, it is not done with the intent of harm so it is not an evil action.

 

[Saint Steven]

Someone once asked me what was worse, ignorance or apathy? I told them I don't know and I don't care.

My wife is hard of hearing. That means that half the time she can't hear me and the other half of the time she ignores me.

 

[Saint Steven]

I will not speak to the God you believe in, as I can only speak to the God I believe in. While He is bigger than a book, He has confined my knowledge of Him to that book and given it as sufficient to speak of His nature and qualities. I cannot go beyond the book, not because He is confined but because I am.

Here's the list of the offices in the church, the body of Christ.
What is the difference between Pastor and Prophet?


Ephesians 4:11-13 NIV
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

 

[Neogaia777]

Do you think Hitler was compelled to do what he did? The issue is unless God intends the evil that exists in the world and has a purpose for it there is a serious problem. Such a God would either not be all good for not preventing evil that was in His power to prevent, or He is not all powerful for being helpless to prevent the evil. So if we are to maintain that God exists, He must have a purpose for every last bit of evil in the world without being stained by moral evil Himself by evil intent. If a surgeon refuses to cut a patient open and remove an enflamed appendix he has failed his duty. And while cutting itself is harmful, it is not done with the intent of harm so it is not an evil action.

Your getting closer...

God Bless!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

My wife is hard of hearing. That means that half the time she can't hear me and the other half of the time she ignores me.

Sadly this is how many view the scriptures when they are shared with them according to Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:15-16 and Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27 so much so that they killed the prophets and crucified Gods' dear son in order to silence Gods' Word that they choose not to hear, ignore or reject.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Sadly this is how many view the scriptures when they are shared with them according to Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:15-16 and Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27 so much so that they killed the prophets and crucified Gods' dear son in order to silence Gods' Word that they choose not to hear, ignore or reject.

Nice segue on an innocent joke. Well done!

 

[Saint Steven]

Nice segue on an innocent joke. Well done!

He'll have to speak up so that I can continue to ignore him. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
My wife is hard of hearing. That means that half the time she can't hear me and the other half of the time she ignores me.

 

[ozso]

LOL! It kinda irks me when Universalists try to advance their argument by treating all non-universalists as though they believe that is the only possible option.

Narrow premises like that are a hallmark of false doctrine, hence my complaint that I`ve yet to meet a universalist who could give me an honest case for believing it.

"Narrow premises like that are a hallmark of false doctrine" could be applied to a lot of doctrines. From personal experience, I found it very difficult to get through to you. And in all of that, I'm not sure what your counter view is. I don't "believe" in UR myself. But I understand it and I consider it to be feasible. I think most eschatology involves guesswork.

 

[ozso]

I believe that he was. Have you read "Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich"?, it was one of the last secular books that I read as a teen. Great book, I remember much of it to this very day.

If there were the case, then how much punishment would he deserve?

 

[RickReads]

"Narrow premises like that are a hallmark of false doctrine" could be applied to a lot of doctrines. From personal experience, I found it very difficult to get through to you. And in all of that, I'm not sure what your counter view is. I don't "believe" in UR myself. But I understand it and I consider it to be feasible. I think most eschatology involves guesswork.

If you had bothered to read my messages as I have yours then you would know what my position is.

And "getting though" to somebody whos pretty sure you're wrong isn't a very realistic goal.

 

[RickReads]

If there were the case, then how much punishment would he deserve?

That isn't for us to decide on this side. The Bible has a couple of tidbits in it that show that the views of the righteous will impact the judgment.