Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[GallagherM]

Whatever you do; seek for God and worship in spirit and truth.

Have come to the conclusion of not caring much of the traditional ways that man presents to be truth and instead just simple go and look towards the bible and what it proclaims to be truth. There is so much in the bible. My mother is 60 years old and never really read the bible and the things that are presented to her are profound, because she doesn't know. She never went and never sought after to God.

Be care to not fool your own self and just believe whatever whim of a person has to present is the truth without testing all things friends.

That is my encouragement. Seek... God is a rewarder to those who seek. You all have a blessed day and take care.

 

[Servus]

That is not here on this earth. That is different, @MMXX

I know it's not here on earth. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I've been reading the Bible since before you were born. I know what it says.

I've found that the more I learn, the more I learn that I still have a lot to learn.

 

[Saint Steven]

I know it's not here on earth. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I've been reading the Bible since before you were born. I know what it says.

I've found that the more I learn, the more I learn that I still have a lot to learn.

It's true then? Ignorance really is bliss. - lol

 

[GallagherM]

Have a good day folks.

 

[Servus]

It's true then? Ignorance really is bliss. - lol

Someone once asked me what was worse, ignorance or apathy? I told them I don't know and I don't care.

 

[Hmm]

Here are a couple of verses that show that God wants and desires everyone to be saved:

2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2 1:4

and

9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
​

Can these verses be read in any other way? If they do say that God wants everyone to be saved, is there any scripture that says that God won't ultimately accomplish what He wants?

​

 

[Fervent]

The God we believe in is bigger than a book. He is uncontainable. Granted the book is helpful. And what we believe about God should agree with the book. @Hmm already said it, "There's an awful lot of speculation when we stay within Scripture!"

I will not speak to the God you believe in, as I can only speak to the God I believe in. While He is bigger than a book, He has confined my knowledge of Him to that book and given it as sufficient to speak of His nature and qualities. I cannot go beyond the book, not because He is confined but because I am.

 

[Fervent]

My understanding of Gods involvement with the scriptures comes by way of reading Josh McDowell, @Saint Steven. The evidence that demands a verdict.

My understanding is that the Bible is Gods word in two ways, first the Bible is His word because it contains the very words of God. Second and more importantly, the Bible is Gods word as He is the superintendent of its content.

The Spirit was guiding but not commanding the Bible writers, it’s not as if God were possessing the writers and causing them to pen the words they settled on.

Still like you I wasn’t sure how much sense God “guiding every ink stroke” made. It could be as radical as finger possession or as vanilla as my above perspective.

At first blush guiding every ink stroke sounds like the kind of theology Bart Ehrman had before discovering that there were Bible variants, and then junking in his whole religion.

But then again we all know Bart.

Ultimately, it comes down to a much more hairy topic of resolving human will with God's sovereignty. Ultimately, everything including human actions are within God's will and in God's control. There is nothing that escapes Him, nothing He hasn't planned for and no way for us to change what has been done. Yet, through wisdom, God has devised and created a universe that is open and allows for our intentions to genuinely belong to us. In keeping with the topic, the conundrum gives a reason to consider universalism since if God is in control He may have devised a path through which every single created human has their will shaved and trimmed so that from their own person they seek to change and implement changes that bring their will in accordance with God's but our speculation must give way to what God has written.

 

[Cormack]

Oh no, say it isn’t so, @Fervent. Not another brand of theistic determinism! Hasn’t the community gone through enough.

I can’t bring myself to get into the brain melting double speak of various deterministic/Calvinistic theologies here, not in this topic, however, if you haven’t already, I’d recommend dropping into “would you prefer it if 5 point Calvinism were true?”

It’s still on the first page of the controversial Christian board if I’m not mistaken.

 

[Fervent]

Oh no, say it isn’t so, @Fervent. Not another brand of theistic determinism! Hasn’t the community gone through enough.

I can’t bring myself to get into the brain melting double speak of various deterministic/Calvinistic theologies here, not in this topic, however, if you haven’t already, I’d recommend dropping into “would you prefer it if 5 point Calvinism were true?”

It’s still on the first page of the controversial Christian board if I’m not mistaken.

Oddly, I am not a believer in *any* fatalist version of determinism. The question is simply beyond my ability to resolve, humans must have free will(I see no way of denying it coherently) but God must be 100% sovereign(to allow for degrees of freedom undermines our hope). And so I am resigned to leave it to God, He has cut the Gordian knot but I do not know how.

 

[Cormack]

but God must be 100% sovereign(to allow for degrees of freedom undermines our hope)

Sovereignty doesn’t mean control. Sovereignty means that God rules, it’s not a commentary on how God rules, to make it into a commentary about control and freedom etc is a back door attempt at introducing determinism into the Christian faith.

Once again sovereignty or sovereign simply means to be Lord, ruler or the authority. We even have earthly sovereigns.

humans must have free will(I see no way of denying it coherently) but God must be 100% sovereign

There’s only some kind of contradiction or difficulty in that sentence ^^^ if you have a deterministic (and false) understanding of what the word sovereignty means.

The writers of the King James Bible refer to the king as “the dread sovereign.” They knew what that word meant and used it appropriately.

In modern (Calvinistic) circles they don’t ordinarily know what that word means and continue to use the word sovereign as a synonym for the word control, controlling etc.

If it helps some Calvinists do use the word right, the Gospel coalition published an article explaining the proper use of the word sovereign.

So I guess all hope isn’t lost.

 

[Fervent]

Sovereignty doesn’t mean control. Sovereignty means that God rules, it’s not a commentary on how God rules, to make it into a commentary about control and freedom etc is a back door attempt at introducing determinism into the Christian faith.

Once again sovereignty or sovereign simply means to be Lord, ruler or the authority. We even have earthly sovereigns.

Sovereignty alone certainly means as much, but God's sovereignty is absolute. If God is not in control then there is a possibility of failure. Our hope is in the fact that God knows the end from the beginning, nothing has escaped His consideration and every instance of evil will be removed and restored. How can the future be in God's hands if He is not in control?

There’s only some kind of contradiction or difficult in that sentence ^^^ if you have a deterministic (and false) understanding of what the word sovereignty means.

The writers of the King James Bible refer to the king as “the dread sovereign.” They knew what that word meant and used it appropriately.

In modern (Calvinistic) circles they don’t ordinarily know what that word means and continue to use the word sovereign as a synonym for the word control, controlling etc.

If it helps some Calvinists do use the word right, the Gospel coalition published an article explaining the proper use of the word sovereign.

So I guess all hope isn’t lost.

No, there's no contradiction. The universe is deterministic, this comes both from ordinary observations and Biblical data. But there is a difference between fatalism and determinism, we are not simply confined to a fate that is completely outside of our control because God has worked a way to remain absolutely in control of even the smallest detail while not compelling our participation in any way. How this occurs is speculative, but if we compropmise God's control in favor of rendering the situation within our understanding we have inadvertantly introduced a possibility that Satan wins. Which isn't something we can entertain.

 

[Cormack]

How can the future be in God's hands if He is not in control?

Because God knows the future, knowledge however isn’t causative. People who believe that knowledge is causative are guilty of committing the model fallacy, the fallacy of equating certainty with necessity, but just because something is certainly known doesn’t mean it is necessarily determined. You’re most definitely a determinist and a fatalist, so whether or not you’re attracted to straight determinism or soft determinism (i.e compatiblism) they’re both determinism despite the lingo and they’re both fatalism.

Like I shared earlier, check out “would you prefer it if 5 Calvinism were true,” I walk through the deterministic portions of your belief (even if you wish to resist some of the labels,) I’ve given them a fair shout and show how they 1) undermine your salvation, how they undermine 2) the cross of Christ and how they undermine 3) Gods perfect promises.

 

[Hmm]

Sovereignty doesn’t mean control. Sovereignty means that God rules, it’s not a commentary on how God rules, to make it into a commentary about control and freedom etc is a back door attempt at introducing determinism into the Christian faith.

I agree. I find a useful way to understand sovereignty is to look at trade deals.between countries. Two countries give up some sovereignty by agreeIng to abide by a number of standards and subsidy rules so that there is a level playing field in order to get the deal. They haven't lost their sovereignty though because they can always decide not to renew the deal when it expires. It's a temporary cooperative arrangement. I think similarly God voluntarily gives up some of his sovereignty by allowing us free will but it remains His to take back whenever He wishes to.

Or like Brexit. The UK was able to leave the EU because it remained a sovereign nation even while in the EU and signatory to all its treaties. Scotland on the other hand needs Parliament's permission to hold an independence referendum because it is not a sovereign state.

 

[Cormack]

The problem is people have been taught to see sovereignty as a pie, @Hmm. Even @Fervent shares phrases like “100% sovereign,” or “sovereignty absolute,” it’s just a persist misuse of the word. Sovereignty isn’t a pie and when men make choices they aren’t being “little sovereigns,” as the Calvinist thinks.

They simply need to stop fetishising that word and using it as some kind of cudgel to bash Arminians and other Christians with.

 

[Cormack]

Or like Brexit.

Woo woo Brexit! Leave all the way baby! Coming home!

 

[Hmm]

Woo woo Brexit! Leave all the way baby!

Weve got our sovrenty (that we'd never lost) back innit!

 

[Fervent]

Because God knows the future, knowledge however isn’t causative. People who believe that knowledge is causative are guilty of committing the model fallacy, the fallacy of equating certainty with necessity, but just because something is certainly known doesn’t mean it is necessarily determined. You’re most definitely a determinist and a fatalist, so whether or not you’re attracted to straight determinism or soft determinism (i.e compatiblism) they’re both determinism despite the lingo and they’re both fatalism.

Like I shared earlier, check out “would you prefer it if 5 Calvinism were true,” I walk through the deterministic portions of your belief (even if you wish to resist some of the labels,) I’ve given them a fair shout and show how they 1) undermine your salvation, how they undermine 2) the cross of Christ and how they undermine 3) Gods perfect promises.

So then you're saying that the future accidentally comes in line with God's will in the end? That it was His will in the beginning, His will in the end, but in the middle His will is not in control?

 

[Hmm]

So then you're saying that the future accidentally comes in line with God's will in the end? That it was His will in the beginning, His will in the end, but in the middle His will is not in control?

Can God not adjust to compensate for our mistakes to ensure that His final plan is achieved? Does He not do that all the time in our personal lives, by telling us again and again we need to forgive this person until we finally do for example?

 

[Fervent]

Can God not adjust to compensate for our mistakes to ensure that His final plan is achieved? Does He not do that all the time in our personal lives, by telling us again and again we need to forgive this person until we finally do for example?

What you're speaking of is Molinism, which is a possible solution to the Gordian knot but not necessarily the case. The problem is resolving all of God's qualities(omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, etc) without compromising one in favor of another. Ultimately, we have to be humble enough to throw up our hands and leave it to God. He knows how it works, even if we can't understand.