Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Clare73]

Seems you overlooked the word "seems".
Israel kept rebelling against God, yet all Israel will be saved.

IF they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23), which they have for 2,000 years now and counting, and have not been saved.
The record is not good, the vast majority have not been saved for 2,000 years.

(This is not Brian.)

 

[Hmm]

I assume no such thing. It doesn't matter how many times you offer forgiveness if the party you are forgiving refuses to accept it every time then there will be no reconciliation.

But you can't know in advance that they will can you? Forgiveness goes way beyond these kinds of assumptions.

 

[ozso]

IF they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23), which they have for 2,000 years now and counting, and have not been saved.

In other words, it would be a matter of universal reconciliation.

 

[Clare73]

In other words, it would be a matter of universal reconciliation.

Not according to the revelation Paul received from Jesus Christ. . .only those who believe will be saved.

Not all Isarel is "true" Israel (Romans 9:6).
That's the way it's always been.
All "true" Israel will be saved, and have been for 2,000 years.
"True" Israel is a remnant, just as only a remnant are saved among the Gentiles.

God is saving a remnant from fallen, condemned mankind to be his treasured possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6
Deuteronomy 26:18; Malachi 3:17) and personal inheritance (Psalms 33:12; Ephesians 1:18; Psalms 28:8; Psalms 74:2),
the church, both OT and NT saints (Hebrews 12:22-23), his body and the fullness of him (Ephesians 1:22-23), God counting
himself incomplete (!) without it.

If that doesn't light your fire, your wood's wet.

(This is not Brian.)

 

[Clare73]

And which of the following did Moses and the Prophets mention:

Did they reveal that God is three in one?
Did they reveal that the Kingdom of God was spiritual, not physical?
Did they reveal that the kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles?
Did they reveal that salvation is by faith without works?

Already addressed. This is a deflection from the fact that Moses and the Prophets etc never once mentioned anything about a place of eternal torment,

Actually, it is Biblical demonstration that the absence of eternal torment in the OT demonstrates nothing,
just as the absence of the above in the OT likewise does not demonstrtate untruth regarding them.

This is not Brian.

 

[Clare73]

EVERYONE will be salted with fire.

So everyone goes to hell?

You mean Gehenna?

Non-responsive. . .

This is not Brian.

 

[Clare73]

I am stunned by those who reject the following Scriptures because these Scriptures do not agree with their sentiments.
sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning (ruin) of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30)
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48)
burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36).

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it
shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matthew 12:32

The fact that an age isn't eternity, is at the very heart of the doctrine of Christian universalism.

Jesus' coming is the next age. And that is the Final Judgment and age of eternal destiny.

The last age is eternity. . .and that is the next age.

"and the enemy who sowed them is the devil,
and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels." Matthew 13:39
You can pin that on the teaching of most any doctrine you disagree with.

Yeah, that was a typo, sorry about that. . .it should be Matthew 13:30:
"Let them grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters (angels): First collect the weeds and
tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

The wheat and weeds/chaff are separated, and only the weeds/chaff are burned (ruined).

"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched". Mark 9:47-48
“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched" Isaiah 66:24

Yes, Jesus quoted Isaiah, which was the Jewish understanding of Hades--Luke 16:19-31, vv. 23-24, 27.

"His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn;
but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Luke 3:17

That seems to coincide with the Christian universalist belief that God will purify everyone with fire, burning away the chaff, wood, hay, stubble etc.

The chaff are not the wheat, the chaff/weeds have been separated from the wheat.
The wheat is saved, and the chaff/weeds are burned up.

"Burn up" isn't refining, it's ruin.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

This was the state of everyone who did not come to believe in the Son, such as Paul for instance. The Christian universalist belief is that, like Paul, all will come to see the light and embrace it.

All have not come to the light and embraced it. . .universalism is contrary to NT authoritative teaching.

What I came up with does not amount to "rejecting" those Scriptures, just because my interpretation of them
does not agree with your sentiments.

Your sentiments, nor anyone else's, favor eternal torment for ever and ever (Revelation 14:9-11; Mark 9:47-48; Luke 3:17),
but you and universalism seek to alter the word of truth, wrongly dividing (cutting straight, handling) it (2 Timothy 2:15) for the
sake of your sentiments, giving those sentiments authority over God's truth.

And what you "came up with" is a glossing of those Scriptures, altering their meaning to agree with your theology of universalism.

That is not rightly dividing (cutting straight, handling) the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
That is rejecting the word of truth and replacing it with one's own "word of truth" instead.

This is not Brian.

 

[grasping the after wind]

But you can't know in advance that they will can you? Forgiveness goes way beyond these kinds of assumptions.

I am not making assumption about what any one particular person might do. I began by addressing a hypothetical situation that was posed about the difference in harshness between eternal torment and human sacrifice and whether my suggesting that the two are somewhat different from each other meant I found pagan idolatry preferable to eternal torment. That came following a line of discussion in which two options were available in all instances in which one party has been wronged by another , to accept forgiveness and become reconciled or to reject it and refuse reconciliation. I would expect that for anyone to be subjected to the eternal torment that was suggested as an option , the person would have to eternally reject reconciliation if forgiveness was eternally offered. I don't see that as an impossibility. I also don't see universal reconciliation i.e. the eventual acceptance of forgiveness and subsequent reconciliation of all individuals to God, as an impossibility nor would i find impossible any number of other resolutions to the problem of rejection of forgiveness standing in the way of reconciliation. I simply do not accept the idea that anyone's preference other than God's has any relevance to the reality of what has been, is and will be. I don't see the biblical evidence to suggest any specific outcome is absolutely guaranteed and I certainly don't see any evidence to suggest that personal preferences of individual human beings are what will cause a universal outcome.

 

[ozso]

Not according to the revelation Paul received from Jesus Christ. . .only those who believe will be saved.

After all the time you've spent in UR threads, you don't know that universal reconciliation means that everyone eventually comes to believe?

Not all Isarel is "true" Israel (Romans 9:6).
That's the way it's always been.
All "true" Israel will be saved, and have been for 2,000 years.
"True" Israel is a remnant, just as only a remnant are saved among the Gentiles.

God is saving a remnant from fallen, condemned mankind to be his treasured possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6
Deuteronomy 26:18; Malachi 3:17) and personal inheritance (Psalms 33:12; Ephesians 1:18; Psalms 28:8; Psalms 74:2),
the church, both OT and NT saints (Hebrews 12:22-23), his body and the fullness of him (Ephesians 1:22-23), God counting
himself incomplete (!) without it.

If that doesn't light your fire, your wood's wet.

 

[ozso]

The last age is eternity. . .and that is the next age.

According to... ?

The chaff are not the wheat, they have been separated from the wheat.
The wheat is saved, and the chaff is burned up.

"Burn up" isn't refining, it's ruin.

So annihilation?

All have not come to the light and embraced it. . .univeralism is contraty to NT authoritative teaching.

How do you define authoritative?

You reject that some sin is never forgiven, in this age or the next age, which is eternity.

Jesus said that only one sin would never be forgiven. It seems that you're adding to scripture by changing one into some.

Jesus' coming is the next age. And that is the Final Judgment and age of eternital destiny.

Is the phrase "age of eternal destiny" found anywhere outside of your post?

 

[Clare73]

According to... ?

The NT.

So annihilation?

No, ruin.

How do you define authoritative?

The same way Webster does.

Jesus said that only one sin would never be forgiven.
It seems that you're adding to scripture by changing one into some.

No, only pointing out that Jesus does not agree with universal reconciliation.

Is the phrase "age of eternal destiny" found anywhere outside of your post?

Not acquainted with all wrting in the world.

This is not Brian.

 

[Jipsah]

Your best not take your chances with the gambling lady of second chances as there is no second chance at the second coming only weeping and gnashing of teeth according to the scriptures.

Spare me the "agree with my doctrine or sup sorrow" schtick. There's too much made-up stuff in SDA dogma for any such approach to be effective. I believe that God is both Sovereign, and Omnipotent, and His will cannot be resisted. If He wants you to go, you're going to go, whether it's rejoicing or kicking and screaming "You can't do this! Muh Free Will! You can't make me do it!"

 

[ozso]

Spare me the "agree with my doctrine or sup sorrow" schtick. There's too much made-up stuff in SDA dogma for any such approach to be effective. I believe that God is both Sovereign, and Omnipotent, and His will cannot be resisted. If He wants you to go, you're going to go, whether it's rejoicing or kicking and screaming "You can't do this! Muh Free Will! You can't make me do it!"

I disagree. I refused to be born and... never mind.

 

[ozso]

.

Non-responsive

 

[Clare73]

Not according to the revelation Paul received from Jesus Christ. . .only those who believe will be saved.
Not all Isarel is "true" Israel (Romans 9:6).
That's the way it's always been.
All "true" Israel will be saved, and have been for 2,000 years.
"True" Israel is a remnant, just as only a remnant are saved among the Gentiles.

God is saving a remnant from fallen, condemned mankind to be his treasured possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6
Deuteronomy 26:18; Malachi 3:17) and personal inheritance (Psalms 33:12; Ephesians 1:18; Psalms 28:8; Psalms 74:2),
the church, both OT and NT saints (Hebrews 12:22-23), his body and the fullness of him (Ephesians 1:22-23), God counting
himself incomplete (!) without it.

If that doesn't light your fire, your wood's wet.

After all the time you've spent in UR threads, you don't know that
universal reconciliation means that everyone eventually comes to believe?

Not according to Jesus who says some sin will not be forgiven.

This is not Brian.

 

[Clare73]

Non-responsive

Are you sure about that?

This is not Brian.

 

[ozso]

The NT.

Non-responsive

No, ruin.

As in, "After these things I will return, And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, And I will rebuild its ruins, And I will restore it" Acts 15:16?

The same way Webster does.

What do you consider to be authoritative NT teaching, Catholicism? Orthodoxy? Calvinism?

No, only pointing out that Jesus does not agree with universal reconciliation.

How so?

Not acquainted with all wrting in the world.

So you made it up?

 

[ozso]

Yes, I reluctantly have to forgive you for leaving the top of the toothpaste off 490 times but you just try doing it one more time after that...

Bizzt! You have to forgive at least seventy times seven.

 

[Hmm]

Bizzt! You have to forgive at least seventy times seven.

I wonder if the idea behind the number is is if you forgive that many times it becomes habitual.

 

[Hmm]

I am not making assumption about what any one particular person might do. I began by addressing a hypothetical situation that was posed about the difference in harshness between eternal torment and human sacrifice and whether my suggesting that the two are somewhat different from each other meant I found pagan idolatry preferable to eternal torment. That came following a line of discussion in which two options were available in all instances in which one party has been wronged by another , to accept forgiveness and become reconciled or to reject it and refuse reconciliation. I would expect that for anyone to be subjected to the eternal torment that was suggested as an option , the person would have to eternally reject reconciliation if forgiveness was eternally offered. I don't see that as an impossibility. I also don't see universal reconciliation i.e. the eventual acceptance of forgiveness and subsequent reconciliation of all individuals to God, as an impossibility nor would i find impossible any number of other resolutions to the problem of rejection of forgiveness standing in the way of reconciliation. I simply do not accept the idea that anyone's preference other than God's has any relevance to the reality of what has been, is and will be. I don't see the biblical evidence to suggest any specific outcome is absolutely guaranteed and I certainly don't see any evidence to suggest that personal preferences of individual human beings are what will cause a universal outcome.

Sorry then, I commented not having read the earlier exchange. Guess it was me, not you, making the assumptions!