Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe everything in God's Word, but I don't believe the conclusions you draw from it by passing it through the filter of SDA dogma. God is sovereign and omnipotent. His will will prevail without regard to whether you believe He is able to make it so or not.

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree with your teachings. As posted earlier, there is no dogma or made up stuff in anything that has been shared with you, only scriptures. You have only been provided God's Word and God's Word is not my words but God's. Yet it seems you do not believe God's word when he says those who do not believe and follow His Word will not inherit the Kingdom of God?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 [9], Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10], Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There is only dogma in following man-made teachings and traditions that are not biblical that lead others away from God and His Word, like the false teachings of Universalism. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. For me only God's Word is true and we should prayerfully believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

So we will agree to disagree.

 

[AV1611VET]

And if our "Free Will" lands us in eternal torment, well, fine. Right?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[returntosender]

Are you a Roman Catholic talking about Protestants?

Catholics and Protestants aren't Christians? Shame on you.

 

[ozso]

Catholics and Protestants aren't Christians?

No.

 

[ozso]

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I find it interesting that with all those kinds of decrees throughout the OT, none of them say anything about a place of eternal torment. The life and death, blessing and cursing talked about is temporal.

 

[Cormack]

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

If you assume many forms of universalism, the lost freely come to God the Father through Jesus Christ.

Choosing to prefer another view over universalism because universalism undermines freewill isn’t an appropriate reason, universalists affirm freewill.

 

[returntosender]

No.

They are God's children so what's that make you?

 

[ozso]

They are God's children so what's that make you?

You misunderstood me.

If I had said yes, then I would have been saying "yes Catholics and Protestants aren't Christians".

This started out with me making a tongue-in-cheek joke about Catholics and Protestants having opposing theological views.

 

[AV1611VET]

I find it interesting that with all those kinds of decrees throughout the OT, none of them say anything about a place of eternal torment.

Jesus took care of that.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

 

[AV1611VET]

If you assume many forms of universalism, the lost freely come to God the Father through Jesus Christ.

As they should.

Choosing to prefer another view over universalism because universalism undermines freewill isn’t an appropriate reason,

Says who?

... universalists affirm freewill.

They can affirm anything they want, but if their names aren't in the Lamb's Book of Life, it's curtains for them.

 

[returntosender]

You misunderstood me.

If I had said yes, then I would have been saying "yes Catholics and Protestants aren't Christians".

This started out with me making a tongue-in-cheek joke about Catholics and Protestants having opposing theological views.

I realize what started it even if it is beyond my understanding. Someone thinks you are funny though. So you succeeded it seems.

 

[Clare73]

I find it interesting that with all those kinds of decrees throughout the OT, none of them say anything about a place of eternal torment. The life and death, blessing and cursing talked about is temporal.

So absence of "eternal" in the OT is your basis for concluding it is not "eternal," but temporal.

What do you conclude from the absence of the following in the OT?

God is three in one? (Matthew 28:19)
The Kingdom of God is spiritual, invisible, within, not physical? (Luke 17:20-21; John 18:36)
The kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles? (Matthew 21:43)
Salvation is by faith without works? (Ephesians 2:8-9)

This is not Brian.

 

[Cormack]

Says who?

Anyone who understands how logic and reason works.

Insisting that you prefer another view over universalism has to come with a point of difference. An advantage to the view you have picked after presupposing both.

Since your reason gave no point of difference, your “no” makes no sense, freewill is affirmed in universalism.

You need logically valid reasons for an opinion to be justifiably held. Unless you want to hold unjustifiable opinions, which many do.

 

[ozso]

Jesus took care of that.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

He said to go into Gehenna and then He quoted from Isaiah:

“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.” Isaiah 66:22-24

And I take note that this passage also says, All mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord.

God says that all mankind will bow down before Him. What does that say about your "No. It deprives us from our freewill" objection?

 

[Cormack]

They can affirm anything they want, but if their names aren't in the Lamb's Book of Life, it's curtains for them.

Again, because you may not have been reading, this isn’t a topic about whether or not your view or mine is true. If you read through the topic you’ll find me reiterating that periodically.

It’s a topic about first presupposing the truth of all the views available.

Then asking yourself if you’d rather universalism be true than the other competing views.

Then sharing why you’ve picked the view you have.

“I pick ma view because it’s the most true” isn’t a valid option.

If you’d like to revisit the topic and read through the messages, that might help.

 

[AV1611VET]

... freewill is affirmed in universalism.

No, it isn't.

Not everyone wants Heaven.

Universalism says you're getting it, whether you want it or not.

 

[AV1611VET]

He said to go into Gehenna ...

What's "Gehenna"?

I don't see that word in my Bible.

 

[Cormack]

Universalism says you're getting it, whether you want it or not.

That’s certainly not the form most universalists here would recognise. Although it’s true that universalism has a camp of believers who are strongly in the predetermination camp, they would believe (like Calvinists) that God changes mans will so man loves him back.

That’s not forced.

So, in short, determinism isn’t the norm for universalists, and that’s not the form of universalism that’s being defended here.

 

[Albion]

No, it isn't.

Not everyone wants Heaven.

Universalism says you're getting it, whether you want it or not.

You've made a valuable point there. If Calvinism/predestination denies freewill as the critics always point out, Universalism does the same--by definition. If it were not so, we wouldn't be calling it universalism.

And if we say that God changes everyone's mind after death, we're just spinning out some rationalization that isn't inherent in universal salvation and we're also supposing that this wouldn't be compulsion on God's part instead of permitting free will.

 

[AV1611VET]

Then asking yourself if you’d rather universalism be true than the other competing views.

Then sharing why you’ve picked the view you have.

Then I'll reiterate:

No -- universalism rules out freewill.

A better reason to say NO, though, is the fact that freewill is God's choice; and what God chooses, I should choose.