Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[ozso]

If they are so faithful, why then are some of them so quick to join Satan's rebellion when he is loosed at the end of the Millennium?

I just know that Philippians 2:10-11 seems to fill the requirement of Romans 10:9.

 

[Clare73]

Hell isn't a Greek word. And words ascribed to Greek deities, like love is ascribed to Aphrodite and or her son Eros,
doesn't mean that the word itself is a product of mythology.

Non-responsive to Charis.

We find those revelations in the OT from reading the NT. Like "by his stripes we are healed" etc.

And to which of the following which I presented does it apply?

Did they reveal that God is three in one?
Did they reveal that the Kingdom of God was spiritual, not physical?
Did they reveal that the kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles?
Did they reveal that salvation is by faith without works?

That's incorrect. Even if I totally rejected the doctrine of universal reconciliation, I would still objectively know that
it has a foundation in both Orthodoxy and Scripture.

Where is universalism taught in orthodoxy?

I'm currently in three or four huge threads that have Christians arguing over what scripture says regarding salvation/justification without/apart from works, using scripture against scripture.

I think you should rest for a while.

 

[sawdust]

The same is true today. Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with no knowledge of Christ. I believe they will meet him there. And that they will be greeted with open arms, not a sword.

To have any knowledge of God is to have knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. You may not be aware it is Him, but He is the word and all things we can know about God is known only through Christ.

All things are his. Everything and everyone.

Yes they are which, is why He alone has the authority to lock up evildoers for good and never ever let them out.

Jesus said EVERYONE will be salted with fire.

I have already addressed this. Yes we will all go through fire and whatever is not of faith will be gone forever but it is not replaced with anything. Fire does not provide anything. Every false belief we hold to and refuse to be corrected on will be burned away to our loss. Only building on the truth leads to overcoming the lies of this world and receives the rewards of the next.

1Cor.3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved.

If that is universally true, then there is no hope for any of us. Very sad. Did Jesus die to save us from God?

We are born sinners Steven, we are not born evil. If you understood the difference, you would have known what I meant. Jesus did not say "get away from me you sinners", He said "get away from me you evildoers".

It seems we are only going round in circles now. I've said all I have to say on the issues you have raised. Take care.

 

[sawdust]

I just know that Philippians 2:10-11 seems to fill the requirement of Romans 10:9.

And therein lies the problem for all of us .. we all "just know" some things. It's why we have to keep persevering in learning the truth through study of the word.

Let it be enough for now knowing the fact that they do rebel after what appears to be faithful lives. As Jesus said, keep on seeking, asking and knocking. Take care.

 

[RickReads]

Secular universalism believes in no consequences. Christian universalism teaches that there are indeed consequences and that hell does exist, the same as the rest of Christianity. It's just that in their view hell is a place of correction.

Yes, and at one point I was starting to talk about that possibility but too much resistance on this thread.

 

[Saint Steven]

Something's wrong with that theory. Almost the whole of the Church has, for the better part of two millennia, discounted Universalism on Scriptural, traditional, and rational grounds. All the theologians, Bible experts and etc. But now you're saying that anyone who still doesn't think Universalism to be true has been "brainwashed?"

By that reasoning, the more that any proposition is shown to be true, the more that anyone who agrees with the findings has to have been deceived.

Until just a few years ago I had never even heard that there are THREE, not just ONE, but THREE doctrinal positions on the final judgment.

There were a few who believed total annihilation for the lost, but the standard doctrine, which I now understand to be Damnationism was the ONLY doctrine considered. Even though all three doctrines were common in the early church and Universalism was the leading doctrine at that time. The Church in Rome put an end to that.

So, brainwashed? Yes! It's a cover-up. I feel the same way about Cessationism.

Saint Steven said: ↑
It seems that they simply can't fathom the possibility. So complete is the brainwashing of our youth, to not even consider such a "preposterous" idea.

 

[Saint Steven]

You might be right, but that's not what was written there, and there's nothing ambiguous about what is there.

You are both right. @Cormack
Imagine that. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Having to believe in eternal torment is pretty strongly enforced in some circles. Some treat even questioning it as about the worst heresy in existence.

That's true. I have a much better understanding now of why people hate Christians. They can be most unloving if you disagree with them. Some of my longtime Christian friends have shunned me. (ouch) Had to make new friends.

Before I was a Universalist, I didn't know any. Now that I am one, I don't know anyone who isn't. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

@Saint Steven didn’t argue that either. That’s just another straw man.

Right. That wasn't my point. Indoctrinated would be a more positive term. Doctrine is indoctrinated's middle name. - lol

Albion said: ↑
It is silly to argue that all the Christians of history who don't believe in Universalism feel that way because they've been "brainwashed."

 

[Saint Steven]

hit the wrong button sorry

I hope Biden never says that. - lol

 

[Clare73]

I am stunned by those who reject the following Scriptures because these Scriptures do not agree with their sentiments.

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30)
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48)
burning of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36).

 

[Saint Steven]

I have already addressed this. Yes we will all go through fire and whatever is not of faith will be gone forever but it is not replaced with anything. Fire does not provide anything. Every false belief we hold to and refuse to be corrected on will be burned away to our loss. Only building on the truth leads to overcoming the lies of this world and receives the rewards of the next.

1Cor.3:14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved.

Pretty amazing. You are one small step away from Universalism with this posting.
The burning away is for our gain, not loss. (ultimately) The builder will "suffer" the loss of what is burned away, (not really suffering at all to lose that stuff) but will be saved.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus said EVERYONE will be salted with fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

We are born sinners Steven, we are not born evil. ...

More hairsplitting.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said EVERYONE will be salted with fire. (Mark 9:49)

In its context of Mark 9:42-48, Jesus is referring to the fire of refining in dealing radically with their sin (cut it off, pluck it out)
so that they won't have to deal with the fire that is not quenched.

The fire of refining is not hell, it is to keep them out of hell.

It takes a lot of glossing of Scripture to support universalism.

 

[Fervent]

I struggled with a desire for universalism for a long time, not understanding how any could be damned. Yet it was revealed to me that desire was nothing more than my own attempt to play God. While I do not know who, I know some truly are wicked and damnation is not only just but merciful for those individuals. I will not stand in judgment of God, nor presume to play His role and deny that an eternal punishment is fit for some just as I will not presume to declare some saved. In the end, justice will be served perfectly and the wicked will not go unpunished.

 

[ozso]

And therein lies the problem for all of us .. we all "just know" some things. It's why we have to keep persevering in learning the truth through study of the word.

Seems you overlooked the word "seems".

Let it be enough for now knowing the fact that they do rebel after what appears to be faithful lives. As Jesus said, keep on seeking, asking and knocking. Take care.

Israel kept rebelling against God, yet all Israel will be saved.

 

[ozso]

In its context of Mark 9:42-48, Jesus is referring to the fire of refining in dealing radically with their sin (cut it off, pluck it out)
so that they won't have to deal with the fire that is not quenched.

The fire of refining is not hell, it is to keep them out of hell.

It takes a lot of glossing of Scripture to support universalism.

In this case it seems a matter of reading the passage in the order it was delivered, and the summation is that everyone will be salted with fire, everyone.

 

[ozso]

Yes, and at one point I was starting to talk about that possibility but too much resistance on this thread.

It seems like those two are always protesting in threads of this nature. Perhaps they are closet universalists.

 

[Clare73]

In this case it seems a matter of reading the passage in the order it was delivered, and the summation is that everyone will be salted with fire, everyone.

So everyone goes to hell?

(This is not Brian.)

 

[ozso]

And to which of the following which I presented does it apply?

Did they reveal that God is three in one?
Did they reveal that the Kingdom of God was spiritual, not physical?
Did they reveal that the kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles?
Did they reveal that salvation is by faith without works?

Already addressed. This is a deflection from the fact that Moses and the Prophets etc never once mentioned anything about a place of eternal torment, despite all the punishments and judgments of God they clearly spelled out. Or are you going for the idea that "hell" is only conceptual rather than an actual place?

Where is universalism taught in orthodoxy?

I said that universalism has a foundation in Orthodoxy, not that it's taught in Orthodoxy.

However, in my opinion the Orthodox view of salvation seems to come mighty close to universal redemption as seen HERE

I think you should rest for a while.

Physician, heal thyself.