Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[ozso]

So everyone goes to hell?

You mean Gehenna?

 

[Jipsah]

The scriptures do not teach everyone will be saved because many will choose to refuse the gospel invitation to believe and follow God's Word. (Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:21-23; John 3:16-20; Hebrews 10:26-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 etc)

That wasn't the question, was it? The question was if anything could stop God from saving everyone if He was so inclined. What say ye?

 

[Jipsah]

Obviously God thinks that the salvation of all is the perfect plan, but he seems unable to execute it.

Yeah, that's the "Poor God..." idea. The idea is that God does so want to save anyone, but He just can't do it because [insert doctrinal "reason" here]. His hands are tied, there's nothing He can do. Yeah, He can speak the universe into existence, but any one of His sentient creatures can thwart His most heart felt desires. I say that's rubbish.

I was lead to believe that he was capable of executing any plan... flawlessly.

Apparently the idea of an omipotent God has fallen out of fashion.

 

[Jipsah]

True. However, could that command have been given to us for the benefit of both parties? If the forgiveness is rejected, then the one rejecting it has refused reconciliation and no reconciliation occurs. That is not the doing of the one that offered forgiveness.

It's hard to see how eternal concious torment could be beneficial to the damned.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ The scriptures do not teach everyone will be saved because many will choose to refuse the gospel invitation to believe and follow God's Word. (Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:21-23; John 3:16-20; Hebrews 10:26-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 etc)

Your response here...

That wasn't the question, was it? The question was if anything could stop God from saving everyone if He was so inclined. What say ye?

The answer was provided from scripture. I believe God don't you? God does not force people to believe and follow him. We are not robots.

 

[Jipsah]

I believe God don't you?

Sure do. I don't think what we believe about Him is at all the same, though. Your idea that there are things that God is unable to do is one i do not share. I see God revealed in Scripture as all-powerful. You obviously do not.

God does not force people to believe and follow him.

He slapped St. Paul around a fair bit, didn't He? And He wasn't particularly worried about Jonah's "free will" when He ordered him to " Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it", was He? And He apparently wasn't all that concerned about the "free will"of the Ninevites, either. We're explicitly told that God hardened Pharoah's heart against the Israelites. There are other similar cases. The "God can't oppose our Free Will" canard is rubbish; He can, and often does.

We are not robots.

Neither are we turtles, and one has about as much to to with an assumed ability to thwart God's will as the other. The idea that God is unable to do anything we don't want Him to do is ridiculous.

 

[GallagherM]

Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

I desire Gods mercy, over judgement.

 

[ozso]

I am stunned by those who reject the following Scriptures because these Scriptures do not agree with their sentiments.

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:39)
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48)
burning of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36).

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matthew 12:32

The fact that an age isn't eternity, is at the very heart of the doctrine of Christian universalism.

"and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels." Matthew 13:39

You can pin that on the teaching of most any doctrine you disagree with.

"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched". Mark 9:47-48

“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched" Isaiah 66:24

"His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Luke 3:17

That seems to coincide with the Christian universalist belief that God will purify everyone with fire, burning away the chaff, wood, hay, stubble etc.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

This was the state of everyone who did not come to believe in the Son, such as Paul for instance. The Christian universalist belief is that, like Paul, all will come to see the light and embrace it.

What I came up with does not amount to "rejecting" those Scriptures, just because my interpretation of them does not agree with your sentiments.

 

[returntosender]

It's not easy to understand why some spend so much time trying to change God's word. Are they true believers in the God we know and love?
Ask yourselves their motives. Do you really want to contribute to that or them and their eventual end?

 

[returntosender]

Where Does Your Faith Rest?
We all would do well to think hard on this God inspired post by this wonderful Godly woman.
I thank God for her every day.
She has great wisdom.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sure do. I don't think what we believe about Him is at all the same, though. Your idea that there are things that God is unable to do is one i do not share. I see God revealed in Scripture as all-powerful. You obviously do not.

True, I believe the scripture and posted them earlier and it seems you do not so you are correct we do not believe the same things. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. The scriptures do not teach everyone will be saved because many will choose to refuse the gospel invitation to believe and follow God's Word. (Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:21-23; John 3:16-20; Hebrews 10:26-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 etc). As posted earlier God can do all things but not all people choose to believe and follow God's Word and accept the free gift of God's love. The gospel invitation is for all but not all will choose to receive it *John 3:16-20. It is you who it seems do not believe these scriptures. They are Gods' Words though not mine so you will need to take it up with him *John 12:47-48.

He slapped St. Paul around a fair bit, didn't He? And He wasn't particularly worried about Jonah's "free will" when He ordered him to " Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it", was He? And He apparently wasn't all that concerned about the "free will"of the Ninevites, either. We're explicitly told that God hardened Pharoah's heart against the Israelites. There are other similar cases. The "God can't oppose our Free Will" canard is rubbish; He can, and often does. Neither are we turtles, and one has about as much to to with an assumed ability to thwart God's will as the other. The idea that God is unable to do anything we don't want Him to do is ridiculous.

According to the scriptures all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution and correction. All you have posted here are examples of God's people. We have free will to choose the gospel all your examples are of people who already choose the gospel. God does not force us to accept him and many according to the scriptures will be lost because of it. Universalism is a doctrine of devils and makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. That would be between you and God to work through.

Your best not take your chances with the gambling lady of second chances as there is no second chance at the second coming only weeping and gnashing of teeth according to the scriptures.

Thanks for the discussion but been here before.

 

[martymonster]

Yeah, that's the "Poor God..." idea. The idea is that God does so want to save anyone, but He just can't do it because [insert doctrinal "reason" here]. His hands are tied, there's nothing He can do. Yeah, He can speak the universe into existence, but any one of His sentient creatures can thwart His most heart felt desires. I say that's rubbish.
Apparently the idea of an omipotent God has fallen out of fashion.

Unfortunately, he's been out of fashion for quite some time.

 

[ozso]

It's not easy to understand why some spend so much time trying to change God's word. Are they true believers in the God we know and love?
Ask yourselves their motives. Do you really want to contribute to that or them and their eventual end?

Are you a Roman Catholic talking about Protestants?

 

[grasping the after wind]

It's hard to see how eternal concious torment could be beneficial to the damned.

Under the scenario we were discussing, one has been given two options. Acceptance of forgiveness and reconciliation or rejection of forgiveness and reconciliation. If one chooses that second option, one must have found something one preferred about it. One must have considered it beneficial or they would have chosen the other option.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's hard to see how eternal concious torment could be beneficial to the damned.

Yes, even human prisons are called correctional institutions. The goal is to reform the criminal. The sentence has a purpose and a time limit. ECT has neither.

 

[Hmm]

Under the scenario we were discussing, one has been given two options. Acceptance of forgiveness and reconciliation or rejection of forgiveness and reconciliation. If one chooses that second option, one must have found something one preferred about it. One must have considered it beneficial or they would have chosen the other option.

The flaw is your logic is that you're assuming forgiveness is only offered once and that's it. However, Jesus said something about seventy times seven...

 

[Saint Steven]

Under the scenario we were discussing, one has been given two options. Acceptance of forgiveness and reconciliation or rejection of forgiveness and reconciliation. If one chooses that second option, one must have found something one preferred about it. One must have considered it beneficial or they would have chosen the other option.

No. Those are not the two options being discussed. That is only one.

The other one is that God has chosen us. Salvation is already arranged for. It's a done deal. Paid in full.

 

[Saint Steven]

The flaw is your logic is that you're assuming forgiveness is only offered once and that's it. However, Jesus said something about seventy times seven...

And I wonder how many have actually counted the times. Waiting for the time when they don't have to forgive. (seems like they never did) Then what?

 

[grasping the after wind]

The flaw is your logic is that you're assuming forgiveness is only offered once and that's it. However, Jesus said something about seventy times seven...

I assume no such thing. It doesn't matter how many times you offer forgiveness if the party you are forgiving refuses to accept it every time then there will be no reconciliation.

 

[Hmm]

And I wonder how many have actually counted the times. Waiting for the time when they don't have to forgive. (seems like they never did) Then what?

Yes, I reluctantly have to forgive you for leaving the top of the toothpaste off 490 times but you just try doing it one more time after that...

Edited: unforgivable typos