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No, I didn't side step it. I want both, and I trust God to give me both. Why should I have to choose?You sidestepped the questions. For obvious reasons?
Saint Steven said: ↑
Would you prefer justice for yourself, or mercy?
If you said mercy for yourself, why would you wish "justice" on someone else?
I was shocked when I first saw this one. cc: @MMXXWhy do Christians uncritically accept these kinds of claims? While there have often been claims of pagan origins, these claims nearly always are speculative at best. Of the traditions that we can trace the origins of, few of them are Christianized pagan elements and the ones most often cited as pagan in origin arose separately and distinctly from their supposed pagan analogues and the resemblances are coincidental at best.
That's twice.No, I didn't side step it. I want both, and I trust God to give me both. Why should I have to choose?
Boy, that is quite the abuse. I was unaware that Chistmas trees were in fact carved idols that people bowed down and worshiped.(sarcasm)I was shocked when I first saw this one. cc: @MMXX
Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;
4 people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
There is no sidestepping, I gave you a direct answer. I trust God to be the judge of when and where to apply justice and when to show mercy. I do not "wish" justice on anyone, I simply will not stand in judgment of God's distribution of it.
LOL - yesBoy, that is quite the abuse. I was unaware that Chistmas trees were in fact carved idols that people bowed down and worshiped.(sarcasm)
Explain the justice of a forever burning hell. Is that really justice? Or will you gloss over it?There is no sidestepping, I gave you a direct answer. I trust God to be the judge of when and where to apply justice and when to show mercy. I do not "wish" justice on anyone, I simply will not stand in judgment of God's distribution of it.
That doesn't sound like justice, though I don't make claims how God will deal with those who are not saved(nor even if such a category even exists). If God's plan is to save all, that's God's justice. If some are damned and suffer in some manner, whether eternal or not, that too will be perfectly just. Perhaps God will explain it, but ultimately I'd rather err on the assumption that there is a real danger of some form of punishment reserved for those who do not submit to the gospel as that seems to be the Biblical message.Explain the justice of a forever burning hell. Is that really justice? Or will you gloss over it?
Well that can't be right! Salvation requires our conscious assent, at a minimum. None of that sissy Sola Gratia stuff for us. We act to be saved! I have decided to follow Jesus! I have found it! I saw the light! I will arise and go! Salvation is out of God's hands, He's did His part and now has nothing more to say. It's all up to us. None of the deus ex machina stuff for us, no pulling us out of the raging torrent, no dramatic rescues. God's role has been played, now it's all up to us, and our Free Will.Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
And if God wants to extend grace to everyone, as it sounds very much like He does, that's not allowed either.Universalism extends grace to include everyone, regardless of faith in Christ or not.
And what believer thinks any of that has anything to do with Christianity?
No. Most Christians believe in the narrow gate and few that find it, and the broad gate that leads to destruction.
What is the current population of China? How many of those are heading for heaven? Now project backwards 5 to 10 thousand years. Did you reach countless billions yet? Easily tens, if not hundreds, of billions.
Saint Steven said: ↑
What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?
I was shocked when I first saw this one. cc: @MMXX
Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;
4 people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
The actual place called Gehenna mostly. But also Sheol.
Yes that’s what I expected. I can surely understand Sheol not being a reference to hell but Gehenna is definitely a reference to hell. Jesus mentioned Gehenna about 6 times in the scriptures and every single time He mentioned it, it was definitely a reference to hell. I don’t think that Sheol is a reference to hell, I think it is a waiting place for those who have received condemnation. I also believe that those who were declared righteous by God who were waiting in Sheol are no longer waiting in Sheol but are in Heaven with The Lord. I think they were released from Sheol when Jesus was crucified.
LOL - yes
Amazing that the translation uses the word "deck". (like deck the halls)
Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;
4 people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
Did Jesus die to save us from God?That doesn't sound like justice, though I don't make claims how God will deal with those who are not saved(nor even if such a category even exists). If God's plan is to save all, that's God's justice. If some are damned and suffer in some manner, whether eternal or not, that too will be perfectly just. Perhaps God will explain it, but ultimately I'd rather err on the assumption that there is a real danger of some form of punishment reserved for those who do not submit to the gospel as that seems to be the Biblical message.
If it is indeed many, that is more of a support for UR than the standard position. Your Revelation 7:9 quote would support Ultimate Redemption.I didn't say most, I said many. Who knows the numbers? Few vs many, broad vs narrow is also figurative, not numbers. Jesus from my view shows that it's a serious matter, not something to take lightly on. I see it more like a call to each one of us, to take our walk with Jesus seriously, rather than for it being a description of amounts.
I know there are Christians that do believe that the number of saved will be very small, but not sure most Christans believe that. We also have Bible verses talking about huge masses of people and many being saved.
I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
— Matthew 8:11
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
— Revelation 7:9
And the people of China? I say we don't know until that day. Until then let's pray for people and spread the gospel, that Christ has risen, that he has risen indeed!
If it is indeed many, that is more of a support for UR than the standard position. Your Revelation 7:9 quote would support Ultimate Redemption.
I suppose you would have to define what you mean by "adverse consequences", but certainly at a minimum, weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus says you would be better off losing an eye or a hand. So yes, it is serious.
Saint Steven said: ↑
Most certainly.
How about a plan that restored all things to their original state of perfection?
A plan that lavished mercy on all of creation. An end to death and suffering.
Reuniting all of creation in love. This of course would require some major renovation.
As with any renovation project, some demolition would be needed to remove the old to make way for the new.
How does that sound? (Matt 19:28; Rom. 8:20-21: Rev. 21:5)
Saint Steven said: ↑
What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?
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