Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[ozso]

They seem to manage somehow not to give weight to all the Scriptures, e.g., the ones posted below.

Why not? There is no "hell" in Greek, it is a word chosen to translate "Gehenna."
Sheol was the holding place of the dead, with two parts, Paradise (place of blessing, Abraham's bosom) and Hades (translated "hell"),
place of punishment, as seen in Luke 16:19-31, vv. 23-24.

"Hell" is a word taken from pagan mythology. It doesn't belong in the Bible.

Absolutely irrelevant. . .absolutely!

Did they reveal that God is three in one?
Did they reveal that the Kingdom of God was spiritual, not physical?
Did they reveal that the kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles?
Did they reveal that salvation is by faith without works?

Yes.

Nothing is "legitimate" that contradicts the clear authoritative NT teaching of:

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:39)
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48)
burning of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36).

Questioning in the name of reconciling Scriptures which seem opposed is one thing, in the name of unbelief is another.

I'm not getting what all the different theologies, doctrines and denominations that a believing Christian can pick and choose from has to do with unbelief.

You'll never really understand Scripture if it has to prove its truth to you.
Until you come to Scripture believing that it is all the true word of God written, that the only issue you have is reconciling what seems contradictory to you, and which is not the same as "untrue" to you, you won't have full access to the Book.

I don't find any of those guys addressing these.

This would follow if every believing Christian had all interpreted scripture exactly the same way from the beginning. But from the beginning the early church fathers didn't agree with each other on everything. And then there was this thing called the Reformation. And of course Luther, Calvin and Arminius etc didn't interpret scripture the same either.

 

[Clare73]

Clare73 said:

PRECISELY!!!
It's called faith in the word of God written, which universalism is NOT.
That is dancing with the devil.
Did Jesus "entertain the truth" of Satan's "options" in Matthew 4:3-10. . .WHY NOT?
Did Jesus "entertain the truth" of Peter's "option" in Matthew 16:23. . .WHY NOT?

When you understand what that is about, you may be able to understand what your "options" are about.

Funny x 1 List

Yep. . .dancing with the devil is showing its effects. . .

 

[Jipsah]

I wish that everyone could be saved.

Could be? Does something hinder God from saving everyone if He's so inclined?

 

[Jipsah]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

Yes. Let everyone rejoice in the Lord, from the most glorious saint to the vilest of the vile, all saved, cleansed, and forgiven by the unimaginable grace of Almight God.

 

[sawdust]

True. But bending the knee means you're submitting to them.

There is a lot that could be said here but you're an intelligent person and don't need me to tell you that because a person bows down before another, they do not necessarily believe in their heart the reality of what they bow to. There are those who will always bow to your face while they plot behind your back.

While I think Matthew 7:21-23 is a good argument, I'm fairly sure someone could come up with a good counter argument. As I see it the debate continues and my mind is not made up.

Which only goes to prove my point that while one can confess something it doesn't necessarily follow they believe with all their heart that it is true.

The scripture is plain in that one must confess with their mouth and believe in their heart in order to be saved.

Rom.10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Cormack]

Yes. Let everyone rejoice in the Lord, from the most glorious saint to the vilest of the vile, all saved, cleansed, and forgiven by the unimaginable grace of Almight God.

Straightforward on topic response, awesome.

 

[ozso]

Yep. . .dancing with the devil is showing its effects. . .

What's dancing with the devil, Calvinism or Arminianism? Lutheran or Baptist? Predestination or Free Will? Premillennial, Postmillennial or Amillennial? etc... etc... etc...

 

[Cormack]

What's dancing with the devil, Calvinism or Arminianism? Lutheran or Baptist? Predestination or Free Will? Premillennial, Postmillennial or Amillennial? etc... etc..etc...

Apparently laughing at an utterly laughable message is the real sign of danger here.

 

[ozso]

Apparently laughing at an utterly laughable message is the real sign of danger here.

Ah ha disagreeing Clare is dancing with the devil

 

[Cormack]

Ah ha disagreeing Clare is dancing with the devil

Sadly they have two left feet

 

[ozso]

There is a lot that could be said here but you're an intelligent person and don't need me to tell you that because a person bows down before another, they do not necessarily believe in their heart the reality of what they bow to. There are those who will always bow to your face while they plot behind your back.

That's a good tarnishing of Philippians 2:10-11.

Which only goes to prove my point that while one can confess something it doesn't necessarily follow they believe with all their heart that it is true.

It doesn't exclude it either.

The scripture is plain in that one must confess with their mouth and believe in their heart in order to be saved.

Rom.10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Well, Philippians 2:10-11 says that everyone will confess with their mouth that “Jesus is Lord” and I doubt that while they're saying that before the living Jesus they'll have trouble believing He was raised from the dead.

 

[Clare73]

"Hell" is a word taken from pagan mythology. It doesn't belong in the Bible.

Who made that rule?

Then we'll have to get rid of the word grace (charis), the Greek deity Charis, wife of Hephaistos, the fire deity of pagan mythology.

In fact, Greek is a pagan language itself, in which was written the whole NT.

You might want to rethink your rule above.

Yes.

Where do we find these revelations?

I'm not getting what all the different theologies, doctrines and denominations that a believing Christian can pick and choose from has to do with unbelief.

Not talking about all the different doctrines, talking about "universalism" which enjoys neither orthodoxy nor agreement with the Scriptures previously presented and unaddressed.

This would follow if every believing Christian had all interpreted scripture exactly the same way from the beginning. But from the beginning the early church fathers didn't agree with each other on everything. And then there was this thing called the Reformation. And of course Luther, Calvin and Arminius etc didn't interpret scripture the same either.

Which with exceedingly clear Scriptural arguments convinced all of western Christendom--even Catholicism, which has come to recognize that salvation/justification without/apart from works is Biblical truth.

 

[Jipsah]

because a person bows down before another, they do not necessarily believe in their heart the reality of what they bow to.

Could we give the "bow down" thing a rest? If you come to my church, you'll find that everyone there "bows down" to pretty much everyone else, and if you saw the formal bow we do before our parents on special occasions it would probably give you apoplexy. There's a "God Is An American" vibe in the whole "bow down" thing that I find extraordinarily annoying.

 

[Clare73]

What's dancing with the devil, Calvinism or Arminianism? Lutheran or Baptist? Predestination or Free Will? Premillennial, Postmillennial or Amillennial? etc... etc... etc...

Mocking the NT Scriptures. . .(post #334).

 

[sawdust]

Well, Philippians 2:10-11 says that everyone will confess with their mouth that “Jesus is Lord” and I doubt that while they're saying that before the living Jesus they'll have trouble believing He was raised from the dead.

If they are so faithful, why then are some of them so quick to join Satan's rebellion when he is loosed at the end of the Millennium?

 

[Clare73]

Ah ha disagreeing Clare is dancing with the devil

While disagreeing with Cormack is committing informal logical fallacies (repeatedly,) having such a hard heart that you can’t entertain ideas that aren’t your own, in addition to fabricating the position of people you don’t agree with so that they are easier to defame and argue against.

It's less dangerous to disagree with Cormack. . .I vote for disagreeing with Cormack.

 

[Jipsah]

That is dancing with the devil.

With a nod to my Lutheran brethren:

"And though this world, with devils filled,
Should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed
His truth to triumph through us.
The Prince of Darkness grim,—
We tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure,
For lo! His doom is sure,—
One little word shall fell him."

Ain't worried about the devil, OK?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Could be? Does something hinder God from saving everyone if He's so inclined?

The scriptures do not teach everyone will be saved because many will choose to refuse the gospel invitation to believe and follow God's Word. (Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:21-23; John 3:16-20; Hebrews 10:26-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 etc)

 

[ozso]

Who made that rule?

Then we'll have to get rid of the word grace (Charis), the Greek deity Charis, wife of Hephaistos, the fire deity of pagan mythology.

In fact, Greek is a pagan language itself, in which was written the whole NT.

You might want to rethink your rule above.

Hell isn't a Greek word. And words ascribed to Greek deities, like love is ascribed to Aphrodite and or her son Eros, doesn't mean that the word itself is a product of mythology.

Where do we find these revelations?

We find those revelations in the OT from reading the NT. Like "by his stripes we are healed" etc.

Not talking about all the different doctrines, talking about "universalism" which enjoys neither orthodoxy nor agreement with the Scriptures previously presented and unaddressed.

That's incorrect. Even if I totally rejected the doctrine of universal reconciliation, I would still objectively know that it has a foundation in both Orthodoxy and Scripture.

Which with exceedingly clear Scriptural arguments convinced all of western Christendom--even Catholicism, which has come to recognize that salvation/justification without/apart from works is Biblical truth.

I'm currently in three or four huge threads that have Christians arguing over what scripture says regarding salvation/justification without/apart from works, using scripture against scripture.

 

[sawdust]

hit the wrong button sorry