Would the Bible as history change your mind about evolution?

Do the Bible as History and Evolution as history conflict?

  • Yes, they cannot both be true.

  • No, the two histories do not conflict

  • I don't know, I am still trying to decide.

  • Other (Elaborate at will)


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mark kennedy

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Most Christians would not dream of calling the ressurection a myth, it must be historical or your faith is in vain. What I am wondering about is if there is a logical contradiction between the Bible being accurate history and the Theory of Evolution being factual about our natural history. The Bible, in no uncertain terms, describes God as intervening in human affairs from the beginning (the literal meaning of Genesis).

I just wonder if this ever causes a conflict for you as a Christian where you have to decide to believe the Bible as history or evolution as history.

Don't worry, I am not starting this thread to beat anyone up. I am just curious, is there a conflict for you or do you feel pretty confident that the two are meshing together in dovetail fashion.
 

gluadys

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Most Christians would not dream of calling the ressurection a myth, it must be historical or your faith is in vain. What I am wondering about is if there is a logical contradiction between the Bible being accurate history and the Theory of Evolution being factual about our natural history. The Bible, in no uncertain terms, describes God as intervening in human affairs from the beginning (the literal meaning of Genesis).

I just wonder if this ever causes a conflict for you as a Christian where you have to decide to believe the Bible as history or evolution as history.

Don't worry, I am not starting this thread to beat anyone up. I am just curious, is there a conflict for you or do you feel pretty confident that the two are meshing together in dovetail fashion.


I don't see any conflict since the intervention of God in human affairs occurs in historical times i.e. after the evolution of humanity occurred.

I expect God intervened in or governed earthly affairs before that too, but the Bible does not allude to pre-human times.
 
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shernren

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Oh no, it's an-other TE!

I believe that the Bible describes redemptive history in non-historical terms. God really did create the world; He just happened to describe it in the sort of narrative which a pre-metalworking Israelite would understand, appreciate, and be edified by.

As such, I don't see any conflict with the Book of Words' ahistorical description of God's redemptive history and the Book of Works' scientific hints as to the method God used to achieve it. But I am sure that is not what you intend to mean by "the Bible as history". Therefore, other.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Most Christians would not dream of calling the ressurection a myth, it must be historical or your faith is in vain. What I am wondering about is if there is a logical contradiction between the Bible being accurate history and the Theory of Evolution being factual about our natural history. The Bible, in no uncertain terms, describes God as intervening in human affairs from the beginning (the literal meaning of Genesis).

I just wonder if this ever causes a conflict for you as a Christian where you have to decide to believe the Bible as history or evolution as history.

Don't worry, I am not starting this thread to beat anyone up. I am just curious, is there a conflict for you or do you feel pretty confident that the two are meshing together in dovetail fashion.


Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.






but history did not end when the last human being alive when these words were spoken almost 2000 years ago.


History, exactly what it is and how we conceive of it is a cultural construct and we do not understand history the same way as did Calvin (who sits on the cusp of the medieval and modern worlds) or Augustine or Paul or Moses. Each of these people has a distinctly different idea of history and how they related to it. To minimize these things is to push modern notions onto the past where they are not just inappropriate but misguided and misguiding.
 
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jereth

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I contend that neither the Bible nor Evolution are history.

The Bible is the written revelation of God to man. It provides us with theological interpretations of redemptive historical events -- for instance the Exodus, the reign of King David, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and Pentecost. However it also teaches us theological truth through non-historical writings eg. Genesis 1-3, Job, Song of Songs, Jonah, Revelation.

Evolution is a biological theory explaining the diversification of life. It makes no claims about history in and of itself. It is only when combined with geology and radiometric dating that it makes statements about the history of life on this planet.
 
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DailyBlessings

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The Bible is a lens for looking at the history of humanity, one that focuses on our growth as spiritual beings and our becoming mature enough to come into deeper understanding of the meaning of our existence. The natural sciences are also a way of looking at our history, through the physical aspects of our evolution and our functioning as natural creatures. The two can relate to one another (the natural world is governed by laws that reflect the Creation; Our gradual physical evolution allowed cognitively for the advent of spiritual awareness) but they do not have to conflict. At their heart, both forms of inquiry have roughly the same goal, to understand God. Since God's nature is presumably unchanging, I refuse to believe that I would have to scrap one for the other.
 
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mark kennedy

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I contend that neither the Bible nor Evolution are history.

So you reject the Bible as redemptive history and Evolution as natural history. Maybe you will explain this in terms of how you judge the historicity of an event.

The Bible is the written revelation of God to man. It provides us with theological interpretations of redemptive historical events -- for instance the Exodus, the reign of King David, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and Pentecost. However it also teaches us theological truth through non-historical writings eg. Genesis 1-3, Job, Song of Songs, Jonah, Revelation.

The Song of Songs is obviously a narrative of two people who were getting married. Solomon knew these two and was probably related to the groom. Marriages were not a single ceremony it was a process and mystical interprutations of this text are useless. Revelations is predictive prophecy and that is the clear meaning of this text. Jonah is presented as an historical narrative and accepted as such for good reason. Jesus even says that Jonah was literally in the belly of a fish for three days and that He would be in the belly of the earth for three days. That is a direct comparision of two historical events, Jonah and Christ.

Evolution is a biological theory explaining the diversification of life. It makes no claims about history in and of itself. It is only when combined with geology and radiometric dating that it makes statements about the history of life on this planet.

That must be why every evolutionary biology textbook has speculative scenerios on the origin of life and primordial history. Radiometric dating does not concern me in the slightest because it is based on an assumption of constancy and is anything but absolute.

I would readily accept evolution as science if not for the fact that it does not stop there. It makes broad sweeping generalizations claiming conclusive evidence for common descent. That evidence they are claiming is conclusive does not exist except in the mind of evolutionists.
 
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mark kennedy

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Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.


but history did not end when the last human being alive when these words were spoken almost 2000 years ago.


History, exactly what it is and how we conceive of it is a cultural construct and we do not understand history the same way as did Calvin (who sits on the cusp of the medieval and modern worlds) or Augustine or Paul or Moses. Each of these people has a distinctly different idea of history and how they related to it. To minimize these things is to push modern notions onto the past where they are not just inappropriate but misguided and misguiding.


The Scriptures are not that ambiquise, redemptive history is marked by supernatural activity at crucial periods of human history. When Jesus says 'this generation' he is not nessacarily refering to that time. Generation could mean the Jews, it could mean a future generation that sees these events unfold. Of course, I hold with the latter view and here He is talking about the middle of the Tribulation period.

That said, I really don't think that being a TE or YEC is all that important. It's all very interesting but distant past events are notoriously difficult to identify.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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The Scriptures are not that ambiquise, redemptive history is marked by supernatural activity at crucial periods of human history. When Jesus says 'this generation' he is not nessacarily refering to that time. Generation could mean the Jews, it could mean a future generation that sees these events unfold. Of course, I hold with the latter view and here He is talking about the middle of the Tribulation period.

That said, I really don't think that being a TE or YEC is all that important. It's all very interesting but distant past events are notoriously difficult to identify.

that's fair.
look at the term used: genea translated as generations.
show me another verse where this means something figurative and not literal like a redemption period, length of jewish history, or some period of time other than that anchored by a human lifetime.

there are several places where it is translated as ages or times, but clearly (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1157401897-2536.html) taking a page from YECists, it means a generation in these synoptic verses.


again, the flip, if you can't fit the verses into your theology as plainly written then take them figuratively. (see i too can play the literal, clearly, man in the pew hermeneutic when it fits my theology)
 
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Deamiter

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Jonah is presented as an historical narrative and accepted as such for good reason. Jesus even says that Jonah was literally in the belly of a fish for three days and that He would be in the belly of the earth for three days. That is a direct comparision of two historical events, Jonah and Christ.
First off, you should know that the "s" in Revelation is both silent and unwritten... There is no book of Revelations in the Bible.

As to this quote, you started off by misquoting Jesus -- nowhere in the verse does Jesus say "literally." Then you say that Jesus was in the middle of the Earth...

The Hebrew people believed in a place called Sheol -- the place of the dead. They believed it was under the Earth as evidenced by MANY verses talking about digging to Sheol etc...

To date we have not found Sheol. I don't know about you, but I tend to interpret it figuratively... unless you really think digging in the right spot will find us the land of the dead...

So now you have Jesus comparing one story (which you believe is literal) to his own stay in the heart of the Earth... I submit to you that unless you truly believe Jesus traveled to the core of the Earth, you have just shown how a person can use a mythological idea to convey real truth. It is not a LITERAL comparison between two historical events, but a comparison between two stories both of which contain truth. We've just established that one is at least partly metaphorical (Jesus' stay inside the Earth) and there's absolutely nothing that requires the other to be factual/historical for the truth in each to be compared!

You throw around "obviously" and "clearly" as if the use of such strong terms is going to be enough to convince those that disagree with you. Quite simply, the interpretation of scriptures is anything BUT obvious as evidenced by the many thousands of varying interpretations Christianity has seen throughout the years. You might consider revising using language that avoids insulting the intelligence of every other Christian...

Or I suppose you could agree with the many of us who believe that Genesis' clearly poetic form obviously makes it allegorical rather than literal/historical...
 
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mark kennedy

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First off, you should know that the "s" in Revelation is both silent and unwritten... There is no book of Revelations in the Bible.

The title actually comes from the opening line that says The Revelation 'of Jesus Christ' as wittnessed by His servant John. The reason it is a transliteration 'of Christ' in because it is the dative case of revelation, indicating possesion. Since the revelation is possesed by only one, that is Christ, it is therefore properly singlular since Christ alone posseses it. However, within the book there is a series of revelations (plural): The Bride of Christ, Babylon the Great, The Lamb that speaks like a Dragon, The Man of Sin, The Two Wittnesses and the final revelation of Christ returning in power and glory to establish His 1,000 year reign. If you want to get technical about it should be called the 'apocalypse' since 'revelation' is a transliteration and apocalypse is the normal Greek word used.


As to this quote, you started off by misquoting Jesus -- nowhere in the verse does Jesus say "literally." Then you say that Jesus was in the middle of the Earth...

Look again Deamiter, there were no quotation marks and that was a paraphrase with a point. The point was that Jesus spoke of the ressurection and Jonah being in the belly of the whale as being the same thing. Both are obviously meant to be taken as literal happenings, not metaphors, analogies or parables. Just as Jonah was three days in the belly of the fish the Son of Man with be three days in the earth. That is a clear as it can be and the all the semantics in the world won't change the clear meaning of the text.

The Hebrew people believed in a place called Sheol -- the place of the dead. They believed it was under the Earth as evidenced by MANY verses talking about digging to Sheol etc...

I am aware of the Hebrew concept of Sheol, death and the grave. Sheol is the grave and both terms are used interchangably as a euphimism for death. Paul uses the literature application of this imagary in Romans 6 and Ephesians 2(dead to sin, alive to God). However, Jesus is not using this as a metaphor, euphimism or analogy, He is talking about His literal death and comparing it to Jonah being three days in the belly of a fish.

To date we have not found Sheol. I don't know about you, but I tend to interpret it figuratively... unless you really think digging in the right spot will find us the land of the dead...

Jesus does not call sheol a place, he calls Hell a place and speaks expressly of it as such. I don't know who 'they' are or how you expect them to uncover the place Jesus called Hell but there is something you might not realize. Jesus is the only one in the Bible that spoke of Hell, wanna know why?

Because He was the only one that knew anything.

So now you have Jesus comparing one story (which you believe is literal) to his own stay in the heart of the Earth... I submit to you that unless you truly believe Jesus traveled to the core of the Earth, you have just shown how a person can use a mythological idea to convey real truth. It is not a LITERAL comparison between two historical events, but a comparison between two stories both of which contain truth. We've just established that one is at least partly metaphorical (Jesus' stay inside the Earth) and there's absolutely nothing that requires the other to be factual/historical for the truth in each to be compared!

Jesus was lilterally three days in the grave just as Jonah was literally three days in the belly of the fish. There is no reason short of a private interprutation to warrant taking Jesus words as anything other then literal. It like the Rich Man and Lazerous, he is talking about three literal people, two in heaven and one in Hell.

You throw around "obviously" and "clearly" as if the use of such strong terms is going to be enough to convince those that disagree with you. Quite simply, the interpretation of scriptures is anything BUT obvious as evidenced by the many thousands of varying interpretations Christianity has seen throughout the years. You might consider revising using language that avoids insulting the intelligence of every other Christian...

I would just be paraphrasing the content of my post if I said straightforward or unambiguise. These texts do not beat around the bush, there is clear language both in and around these texts indicating exactly what I am emphsising. The Scriptures are neither the product of private interprutation or subject to private interprutations. Those who gave the Scriptures spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit and New Testament belivers understand as they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

When the Scriptures speak clearly we should speak clearly of the content, not holding to private interputations. Particularly when speaking of the central events of the Gospel, the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ. How many interprutations are there for those events?
 
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mark kennedy

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since 'revelation' is a transliteration and apocalypse is the normal Greek word used.

close:
revelation is a translation and apocalypse is a transliteration.

Apocalypse is the actual word used, revelation would be the English equivalant. That would make revelation a word directly translated, as opposed to a phrase or expression that would have to be transliterated since it had no real equivilant.

Take for instance Jesus words to Peter after the ressurection where He asks Peter, 'Do you love me?' Peter responds, 'Yes Lord, you know I love you'. What people don't realize is that they are using two different words, agape and phileos. The former is divine love that carries the ideal of sacrifice while the latter is brotherly love, basically meaning close friends. Since the two words have only one English equivilant there is a direct translation of the words. In order to transliterate you would have to encapsolate the way the entire passage was expressed. Revelation was a direct word translation, if it was transliterated the whole passage the word came from would have to be translated as an organic whole. That is unnessacary for this particular passage, simply use the actual Greek word and the meaning is crystal clear.
 
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mark kennedy

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since 'revelation' is a transliteration and apocalypse is the normal Greek word used.

close:
revelation is a translation and apocalypse is a transliteration.

Calling it "apocalypse" would be confusing, since there is already a Gnostic text named "Apocalypse of John".


You couldn't call it the apocalypse of John, in the Greek to say 'of' means possesion. It is the apocalyse of Christ would have to be translated The Apocalypse, belonging to Christ alone, as it was revealed to His servant John.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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rmwilliamsll

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In order to transliterate you would have to encapsolate the way the entire passage was expressed. Revelation was a direct word translation, if it was transliterated the whole passage the word came from would have to be translated as an organic whole.


no.
you apparently do not understand what transliteration is.

transliteration is writing a foreign word in another language representing the sounds of the other language without any thought to the meaning.

apocalyse is a transliteration of the Greek apokalypsis (αποκαλυψις) meaning “revelation”.

for example, pin yin is a Russian based transliteration of Chinese characters into (for us) English. it is a sound "transfer" into letters that represent those same sounds in English.

there are several other transliterations in the Bible.
christ
evangelize
messiah
apostle
angel
from a nice essay on the topic at:
http://blog.kennypearce.net/archives/000132.html

afaik, there are no sentences in the bible transliterated. but i've not studied this issue. there are several words left untranslated.
tabaith
bethsaida (often place name are not translated or are transliterated)
for instance.
 
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mark kennedy

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In order to transliterate you would have to encapsolate the way the entire passage was expressed. Revelation was a direct word translation, if it was transliterated the whole passage the word came from would have to be translated as an organic whole.


no.
you apparently do not understand what transliteration is.

transliteration is writing a foreign word in another language representing the sounds of the other language without any thought to the meaning.

apocalyse is a transliteration of the Greek apokalypsis (αποκαλυψις) meaning “revelation”.

for example, pin yin is a Russian based transliteration of Chinese characters into (for us) English. it is a sound "transfer" into letters that represent those same sounds in English.

there are several other transliterations in the Bible.
christ
evangelize
messiah
apostle
angel
from a nice essay on the topic at:
http://blog.kennypearce.net/archives/000132.html

afaik, there are no sentences in the bible transliterated. but i've not studied this issue. there are several words left untranslated.
tabaith
bethsaida (often place name are not translated or are transliterated)
for instance.


Cool! I stand corrected. I'll get to the essay when I get time but it's hard and actually kind of expensive to get on here these days. That should change in the very near future and I will be able to spend more time on here.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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