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Featured Would Judas have been lost, if he hadn't been lost...?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neogaia777, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Do you realise that you can release the caps lock key on your computer and type in lower case? Otherwise you appear to be shouting.

    I have never seen anything like that in any of the Gospel accounts of Judas' death. How about giving us the Scripture reference?
     
  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Both were hung on a tree, considered accursed, all that...? Put to death, one we know, was reborn having power over death in his death...

    You could say, both were "crucified"...
     
  3. Rose Highley

    Rose Highley New Member

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  4. SMITTY7000

    SMITTY7000 New Member Supporter

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    Matthew 27:3 "Then Judas, which had betrayed Him, when he saw that He was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,"

    Judas is the one that betrayed Jesus for the thirty pieces of silver. Judas saw what these religious leaders had done in condemning Jesus by trial, and bringing Him to Pilate to be crucified, and Judas was sorry for what he had done. Now don't read over this. JUDAS REPENTED HIMSELF. This was not the unforgivable sin that Judas committed, and upon repentance there is forgiveness. He regretted it and repented himself.

    Matthew 27:4 "Saying, "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood." And they said, "What is that to us? see thou to that."

    As I read these words I think about the words of Jesus. Matthew 7:1-3 Judge not that ye be not judged. Is there any among us today that can say without a doubt that Judas did not repent or that his repentance was not good. Is there any that can say without doubt that our Father did not ordain Judas in this role as the betrayer or that Judas had done something unforgivable. I would be careful in my answer here. I hope and believe that Judas repented and is with Jesus in heaven.

    Notice the hateful reaction of these chief priests and elders. Their response is” what is that to us”, “so what” they said. We need to understand who the priesthood was here. Jesus said himself in Matthew 23:2; "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat:". What is the seat of Moses? Moses was the law-giver, which simply means that these scribes and Pharisees have taken over God's law, and they were rewriting the law without the authority to do so [Mark 7:13]. The tribe of Judah gets a bad name as these scribes and Pharisees do their evil deeds under their name. However, Jesus will identify them as the Kenites, and that they claim to be of Judah, and are no but are liars. In fact, as recorded in Revelation 2:9, and 3:9; they are of the synagogue of Satan. Jesus will identify these Kenites for you in this chapter. Look up “Kenite” in Strong`s to see who they are H7017 & 7014. These Kenites had become the scribes [ I Chron 2:52] – of the scribal office – the keepers of the religious books and records. They had come all the way from the temple servants [ drawers of water and hewers of wood] to the scribal office and then to the priesthood by the time Christ walked the earth. From the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, which is approximately four hundred and fifty years before the time of Jesus birth, the Levitical priesthood has been totally replaced by false ones. At the time that Christ walked the earth, these Kenites were sitting in the place where the Levitical priesthood should have been sitting. These Kenites, sons of Cain, Scribes and Priests, were the governing body. It looks like the true Levites were a lazy lot. Note: Many Christians define their belief as Judeo-Christian which link Judaism with Christianity. My Christian belief is not tied to that Jesus denying group whatsoever. I John 2:22-23.

    Read Matthew 23 to get the lowdown on these Scribes and Pharisees. John 8 will shed more light as to the character and origin of these Kenite Priests and Scribes. Read the verse :44 and see what Jesus says about them. Couple this with I John 3:12 and the picture should become clear as to what a bunch of serpents these men were. Do not let church tradition allow you to spiritualize these verses away. Trust the very words of our Savior.

    If these verses make sense to us, then we should also see that the false priests could not allow Judas to live. They had Jesus Christ murdered of the most horrific death, killing Judas would be no big deal.

    Luke 22:2 These murderers feared the people. From their view, allowing Judas to remain alive, as a witness to their evil deed, would have caused their control over the people to diminish. John 12:10-11. These Chief Priests plotted the murder of Lazarus for the same reason. These priest` motives were political and were worried about losing their political control. John 11:47-53

    The High Priests of the Temple were the ones that paid the fee to have even Judas delivered up to death. This matter made a great deal of difference to Judas, and I hope it causes you to wake up to other traditions that cause God`s Word to be of none effect.
     
  5. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    Wow, that is a real interesting belief. What literature did you get this from?

    Would this not make the Bible wrong?
     
  6. SMITTY7000

    SMITTY7000 New Member Supporter

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    Jacksbratt,
    Please see my reply to Oscarr.
    All info from the Bible.
    We must study the Word with common sense and not rely on church traditions to line out our beliefs.
    Jesus warned us of this. Matt.24:3-5 & Mark 7:13.
    If a Bible student has not identified who the Kenite is and who the false Jews of Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 they are not paying enough attention to God`s Word. This is not meant as a cut on you or anyone. The only 2 church types that Christ finds favor with in Rev. 2 & 3 know and teach who these people are. It occurs to me that this is very important knowledge we must possess.
     
  7. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    Can you show me, in the Biblical scriptures, where it says that they killed him and disemboweled him?
     
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Judas may have had remorse, but his repentance was just before men and not before God. Also, nothing you have said has proved that it was the priests who murdered Judas. That view remains guesswork.
     
  9. Myychael

    Myychael Newbie Supporter

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    Genesis 3:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
    14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
    “Because you have done this,
    You are cursed more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you shall go,
    And you shall eat dust
    All the days of your life.
    15 And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her Seed;
    He shall bruise your head,
    And you shall bruise His heel.”

    16 To the woman He said:

    Like 22

    2And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

    3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. 5And they were glad, and covenanted to give
    may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. 19Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. 20Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

    John 13

    21When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 23Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. 25He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

    Sop = son of perdition maybe ?

    As others have stated Jesus said the betrayer would wished he had never been born from genesis 3 13,14 15 looks prophetic to me notice italics.I heard about the sop idea over 15 maybe 20 years ago
    In the reading of the scriptures it seems Judas new what he was doing.Like Abraham I see the Father
    Like Abraham in Genesis 18 I believe verse 25
    16When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17Then the Lordsaid, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.c 19For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

    20Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

    22The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.d 23Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not sparee the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

    Excellent post by the way
     
  10. Myychael

    Myychael Newbie Supporter

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  11. SMITTY7000

    SMITTY7000 New Member Supporter

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    I thought I just did show that. Does it have to be in the King`s English for you to put 2 & 2 together. We must be able to use the broad strokes of scripture to see finer points that may not be written. There is enough in the scripture and the original word studies for me to see that Judas was murdered. A thorough study of the Greek words used in the Biblical accounts of Judas` death should at least give you some room to see the possibility of him being murdered.
     
  12. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    Sorry I am so illiterate...

    Can you show me, in the Kings English, where the first 2 and the second 2 are in these 2 bits of scripture that you selected as proof?

    Matthew 24:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.


    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Mark 7:13 King James Version (KJV)
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Using your logic, and "broad strokes" as you put it...

    I cannot get anything close to what you are suggesting.

    I have never heard of that theory before and hope that I never do again.


     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Would ANYone be lost if they were not lost ? (most of the world is lost, and remains lost, and is tossed in the lake of fire, so what is the Good News ? )

    What would he have been ? .... 'not chosen to kill himself' ....
    Think about this - when the dvl, hstn, indwells someone, they don't live long. (if at all). I.E> he was dead, would have been dead as is always true in such cases(hstn indwelling as allowed by YHVH), and could not be undead.

    'a witness'? (let alone 'powerful') = like most of the people of the world/earth, a servant of hstn, thus a witness for hstn, dead in sin and trespasses.
    To be a witness for Christ it would be necessary to be re-born/ born again by the Father in heaven, by HIS WILL, not man's, which results in a new creation (no longer a slave of hstn nor of sin).
     
  14. SMITTY7000

    SMITTY7000 New Member Supporter

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  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Yes, if Judas had repented rather than killed himself, that would be born again right, and I agree he was lost and probably went to hell for this unfortunately, but, I am always saying "what if" to things, and pondering the possibilities...

    Sorry...

    God Bless!
     
  16. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    No worries about the problems with the format... we all have to learn...

    However... I still see absolutely no support for the view you have in regards to the priests choking him.

    The bible is quite clear:

    5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

    The only way around this straightforward verse is to say that the bible is wrong... which is impossible.
     
  17. SMITTY7000

    SMITTY7000 New Member Supporter

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    Jacksbratt:
    This will be my final comment on the matter. You Have a Good Christian Attitude which I appreciate.
    First Account of Judas Death by Matthew

    Matthew 27:5 "And he cast down the pieces of silver in the Temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

    “hanged”_ G519 apagchomai From G575 and agchō (to choke; akin to the base of G43); to strangle oneself off (that is, to death): - hang himself.

    G575 apo A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

    G43 agkalē From agkos (a bend, “ache”); an arm (as curved): - arm. NOTE: it would be fairly impossible for a man to strangle himself with his own arm.

    Second Account of Judas Death by Peter and Penned by Luke

    Acts 1:18; "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

    Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. :17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. :18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

    This man in verse :18 - Chief Priest who bought the field with the silver Judas threw back at them in the Temple. Matt 27:6-10

    “falling” G1096 _ ginomai A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

    “headlong” G4248 _prēnēs From G4253; leaning (falling) forward (“prone”), that is, head foremost: - headlong. NOTE: How does one go from hanging to being caused to lean forward with the head in the foremost leaning position.

    G4253 pro A primary preposition; “fore”, that is, in front of, prior (figuratively superior) to. In compounds it retains the same significations: - above, ago, before, or ever. In compounds it retains the same significations.

    “burst asunder” G2997 laschō A strengthened form of a primary verb, which only occurs in this and another prolonged form as an alternate in certain tenses; to crack open (from a fall): - burst asunder. NOTE: A google study on the effects of a fall on the human body will point to the fact that for the most part bodies do not “crack open” due to a fall from great heights.

    “in the midst” G3319 mesos From G3326; middle (as adjective or [neuter] noun): - among, X before them, between, + forth, mid [-day, -night], midst, way

    “ and all his bowels gushed out”. . NOTE: it would have taken quite a crack or an incision for all the bowels to gush or pour out.

    This Is Where We Have To Put 2 & 2 Together.

    The 2 Accounts Of Judas Death Do Not Coincide. The bible is not wrong or in error. Through study, rightly dividing the Word, prayer and the guidance of the Holy spirit this truth has become evident to me and it matters none if anyone else agrees.

    From scripture one can see the murderous intents and deeds of the High Priest. It is no stretch to see the possibility that they were as responsible for Judas` death as they were for Jesus` death. It is written that they killed The Christ and it is written that they plotted the death of Lazarus. Even more important is that these priests are the offspring of the Cain who was the progeny of the serpent – devil – satan. Matthew 23 and John 8 and 1 John 3:12. Jesus pulled no punches when he described them as being murderers. Matt. 23:34-35 & John 8:44

    We can go one way or the other here and it helps if we remember that our salvation does not depend on the nature of Judas' death.

    We can say that Judas was hung [ on what] a tree and that after some time the limb broke [ possibly] and that his body, swollen [possibly] from decomposition, fell through the rope [ possibly] and hit the ground causing all of his entrails to flow out of the body [possibly].

    OR

    We can say that the Chief Priest had Judas killed [possibly] in the Potters field because they could not allow him to be a material witness [Judas was telling the truth about his part in the murder of Jesus] and that his executioner [ possibly] did choke him out with their arm and then disemboweled him letting his bowel gush out on the ground. [possibly]

    Because of the obvious difference in the 2 accounts of Judas death and the scriptural evidence of the murderous intent of the chief priest the Latter Explanation makes the most sense to me.

    Though Judas was a willing instrument in this terrible deed, the Son of God was totally in control. He was laying down his life willingly (John 10:17-18; Galatians 1:4). Thus, he and the Father orchestrated these events. This were prophesied in Jeremiah and Zechariah. I believe Christ would have mercy on Judas as His Love and Sacrifice for us all allows us to repent and be forgiven as well. Only God knows!
     
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