Would God Really Send Someone to Hell?

[Jipsah]

We are not to conform to the world’s standards.

Whassat got to do with the accuracy of a translation? The world says 2+2=4, should we reject that fo the sake of nonconformity?

 

[returntosender]

Hitler was a christen and loved Jesus. He wanted to be a minister. Do you think he went to heaven. He met the criteria.

 

[Der Alte]

Hitler was a christen and loved Jesus. He wanted to be a minister. Do you think he went to heaven. He met the criteria.

Romans 9:6​

(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​

IOW Not everyone who claims to be a Christian, is. Including, Adolf.

 

[returntosender]

My point is no one really knows for sure. Who can say who will or who won't. Some posts drive wanna be's away. That's why people move to universalists because of their promise.

 

[Jipsah]

Hitler was a christen and loved Jesus. He wanted to be a minister. Do you think he went to heaven. He met the criteria.

Whose criteria?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day." John 6:44

If we could simply submit to God's will under our own power there would be no need for grace. Sin is not simply a matter of disobeying God. Sin is a power we are under and from which we cannot be freed without grace.

Only in Christ are we truly free. This idea that we have freedom to choose God's will is not the account of freedom given in the scriptures. We are either slaves to righteousness or slaves to sin. Libertarian freedom, i.e., the idea that one is free if one could have done otherwise, is an illusion. The only true freedom is freedom from sin, which is a gift of grace.

The problem with this view is that nowhere in the scriptures does it say that God will not bestow His grace upon those who are willing to repent and humble themselves to Him. So God being both omniscient and omnipresent knows exactly who to bestow His grace upon. Therefore anyone who would repent and come to Christ will be granted by The Father. Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. At the fall of man, man didn’t only receive the knowledge of evil, he also received the knowledge of good as well. Iranaeus put it this way.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

So while the scriptures may say that no one can come to Christ unless The Father has drawn him it doesn’t say that man is so deprived that he can’t repent and humble himself to God. The scriptures that people use to support this doctrine are not being taken into the correct context. I know many will quote Romans 3 which is an OT quote of psalms 53 which begins with the words “the fool says in his heart”. It does not apply to all men and we know this because the scriptures give numerous examples of righteous men in the OT. Enoch, Elijah, Noah, Job, and Abraham are a few that were said to be righteous. Just because a fool says no one is righteous doesn’t make it true.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The problem with this view is that nowhere in the scriptures does it say that God will not bestow His grace upon those who are willing to repent and humble themselves to Him.

This whole construction presumes a bogus notion, that there can be some who are willing to repent and humble themselves to Him, apart from his Grace.

 

[public hermit]

So while the scriptures may say that no one can come to Christ unless The Father has drawn him it doesn’t say that man is so deprived that he can’t repent and humble himself to God

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that these two work together. Even if one humbles themselves and repents, grace is at work. I just don't think we're ever absent that help, which I take to be the point of the Father's drawing.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I skimmed through the link. A piece of biased rubbish with zero scriptural support. From the above quote a sample "The resort of the early fathers to the esoteric is no doubt derived from Plato."

God did not make hell for human beings. He made it for the devil and his angels. God never sends people to hell. They end up there because they side with the devil against God and therefore join the devil where he will be going. God is not willing that any should perish, and so He has to look sadly on those who continue to rebel against Him being dragged into hell by the devil.

When the unconverted stand before Christ in the judgment, they won't be confronted with a catalogue of their sins. They will be shown all the opportunities that they had to receive Christ as Saviour and the record of their rejection of Christ. The suffering and torment for those in hell will be the constant reminder that they were given many opportunities to receive Christ and to avoid hell, and their torment will be that it will now be too late for them.

 

[Blade]

Satan and his angels.. found now place in heaven.. God mad hell for Satan and his angels it was never meant for man. Really think about that. Mad a place with out God gave him what he wanted.

I don't run with experiences but in this one case its what He said. I was young never thinking God would really answer me. How can you send all these people to hell? He came right back and said "For God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice.". Most are blind if blind have no sin.. its those that say they see their sin remains. When your lost.. whos light to you run to? He knows this.. most are blind. Praise GOD glory to Jesus we man get no say in this what so ever. We forget its not our kids our creation were talking about. Its one of the reason man has been given so much time.. He is still going after the one.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This whole construction presumes a bogus notion, that there can be some who are willing to repent and humble themselves to Him, apart from his Grace.

Nowhere do the scriptures say that a person cannot repent and humble himself without grace.

 

[Light of the East]

I don't recall ever having used that term in this forum. Why have you single me out for this off-topic question? Maybe you give me your definition and I'll tell you if you are right or wrong, which seems to be your intention. Meanwhile I'll let Jesus do my talking.

Matthew 25:46​

(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

And be advised, I can demonstrate from the very words of Jesus alone that Jesus meant exactly what I quoted. Verstehen sie?

Of course, (but you don't really care, now do you?) that's NOT WHAT THE ORIGINAL GREEK SAYS.

(46) And these shall go away into αἰώνιος (aionios) age-lasting κόλασις (kolasis) correction, but the righteous into into ζωή (life) αἰώνιος (aionios) age-lasting

Who gave you or any Western translator the permission to change the original wording of the Bible to suit your particular taste for tormenting people forever? I know where it started. It started with Augustine, who despite not knowing Greek (and openly admitting he hated the language) had the hubris to translate the manuscripts in Greek anyway and come up with some of the most wretched idea that have cursed Christianity for 1500 years. What's even worse is that the Roman Church, instead of saying, "Hey Augustine, we are going to call a council. We are concerned about some of these strange new teachings of yours." they just plowed ahead, grabbed what he taught, and ran with it.

The result is the difference you see between the merciful soteriology of the Orthodox East, where Christ is the Great Physician and healer, and the Roman influenced West (Both RC and Protestant) where Christ is the angry Judge just waiting to get His hands on you and administer a whuppin'.

You can have that Christ, thank you! Makes me glad I am in the Orthodox Church

 

[Light of the East]

I am retired X3, one might say this is my full time "occupation." Some folks will uninformedly argue that the Greek word "aionios," which is most often translated "eternal" does not mean "eternal" but "really means age" or some such nonsense. But that is impossible "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun. No way, no how!
Since I have a plethora of time, I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios" in the NT. Part of the results of that review.

“aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.​

“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [.03%]​

“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T. [53%]​

“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T. [35%]​

Despite some uninformed arguments “aionios” is never translated “age(s)” in the N.T. That is impossible. “aionios” is an adjective and “age” is a “noun.” The noun “aion” is translated “age(s)” ​

= = = = = = = = = =​

Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.​

In the following verses αἰώνιος/aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.​

= = = = = = = = = =​

…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal, e.g. “world,”​

However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the N.T., as in the following verses.​

…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.​

It is often argued that “aionios” “really means “age(s)” but that is impossible. “Aionios” is an adjective and age is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.​

…..In the following two [2] verses Jesus defines/describes “aion” as “eternity/for ever.”​

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας/lit. unto the eternity [aionas [PlMas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here definitely means eternity.​

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/aiona [lit. unto eternity]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live forever” with “death.” If “live unto aiona” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiona” by definition here means “eternity.”​

…..In the following eight [8] verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal/for ever/everlasting” by juxtaposition with other adjectives/descriptive phrases.​

[3] John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never​

[εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα[font]/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aiona” means “age(s), a finite period,” “age(s) is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”​

[4]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[5] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.​

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen]I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.​

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.​

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” Aionios cannot mean an indefinite age since "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. By definition aionios means eternal. ​

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.​

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][unto eternity][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.​

I have 14 more vss. but these 10 should be all that is necessary.

Hogwash! You have a lovely habit of twisting words to make them sound like they mean what you wish them to mean. Let's do a little detective work here.

First of all, if what you say is true, there is no way that the great saints of the first five hundred years of Christianity would have believed in age-lasting correction. St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Gregory the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, etc., all who were obedient to the Scriptures they taught, would have never taught Universal Restoration.

You know who did translate the Scriptures the way you have above? The ROMAN CHURCH. The LATIN SPEAKING Roman Church who did not understand the Greek at all. Jerome didn't. Augustine didn't. They made horrendous errors in translation.

Secondly, Greek scholars, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli and Joseph B. Rotherham, the creator of the Rotherham Translation of the Bible, would straighten you out in a hurry. You are working under presupposition and making words mean what you wish them to mean instead of being faithful to the Greek.

Thirdly, and I am surprised that you don't see this, if "aion" means "age," then the derivative words from it, such as aionios, must have to do with age, not eternity. I saw that early in my studies and realized that the idea of making an adjective out of a word that has no eytemological connection with the root word is beyond ridiculous. That's like saying that a man who plays a guitar, a musician (noun) is colorful (adjective). No, he is musical.

Fourthly, adjectives are not set apart by themselves. They relate to the noun they are describing. For instance, you can speak about a "tall dog," a "tall man" and a "tall building." Does that mean that the adjective carries the same height meaning for each of these items. Nonsense. I would love to see a tall dog the size of the Empire State Building. In this manner, aionios can mean eternal, but ONLY when it is speaking of that which is eternal - i.e. GOD!!

Finally, there is a specific Greek word for eternal, adidios. That is only used in two places in the Bible, and not in any of your favorite hellist verses.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Nowhere do the scriptures say that a person cannot repent and humble himself without grace.

I assume you mean, by, "a person", to refer to the lost, though at times it seems you can't tell the difference. Anyhow, would you say that for a person to repent and humble himself would not please God? Yet Romans 8:8 says that the natural man (those in the realm of the flesh) cannot please God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I assume you mean, by, "a person", to refer to the lost, though at times it seems you can't tell the difference. Anyhow, would you say that for a person to repent and humble himself would not please God? Yet Romans 8:8 says that the natural man (those in the realm of the flesh) cannot please God.

Everyone who ever lived was a natural man until they repented. Repentance is the transition from the natural man to a Spiritual man. Was God not pleased when you repented? Were you not a natural man before you repented? In 1 Corinthians 2 & 3 Paul tells the Corinthians that even tho they believe they are still carnal, they were still acting like “mere men”. What do you think he meant by “mere men”?

 

[Der Alte]

Hogwash! You have a lovely habit of twisting words to make them sound like they mean what you wish them to mean. Let's do a little detective work here.
First of all, if what you say is true, there is no way that the great saints of the first five hundred years of Christianity would have believed in age-lasting correction. St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Gregory the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, etc., all who were obedient to the Scriptures they taught, would have never taught Universal Restoration.
You know who did translate the Scriptures the way you have above? The ROMAN CHURCH. The LATIN SPEAKING Roman Church who did not understand the Greek at all. Jerome didn't. Augustine didn't. They made horrendous errors in translation.
Secondly, Greek scholars, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli and Joseph B. Rotherham, the creator of the Rotherham Translation of the Bible, would straighten you out in a hurry. You are working under presupposition and making words mean what you wish them to mean instead of being faithful to the Greek.
Thirdly, and I am surprised that you don't see this, if "aion" means "age," then the derivative words from it, such as aionios, must have to do with age, not eternity. I saw that early in my studies and realized that the idea of making an adjective out of a word that has no eytemological connection with the root word is beyond ridiculous. That's like saying that a man who plays a guitar, a musician (noun) is colorful (adjective). No, he is musical.
Fourthly, adjectives are not set apart by themselves. They relate to the noun they are describing. For instance, you can speak about a "tall dog," a "tall man" and a "tall building." Does that mean that the adjective carries the same height meaning for each of these items. Nonsense. I would love to see a tall dog the size of the Empire State Building. In this manner, aionios can mean eternal, but ONLY when it is speaking of that which is eternal - i.e. GOD!!
Finally, there is a specific Greek word for eternal, adidios. That is only used in two places in the Bible, and not in any of your favorite hellist verses.

I have NOT twisted anything. I have shown conclusively using words of scripture only that "aionios" means eternal/everlasting.
Thou knowest not whereof you speakest. "adjectives are not set apart by themselves. They relate to the noun they are describing" That is the etymological fallacy.
There are two [2] specific swords for eternal "aidios" and "aionios."
Please show me a rule established by accredited scholars, in any grammar or lexicon which says "aionios can mean eternal, but ONLY when it is speaking of that which is eternal - i.e. GOD!" There ain't no such rule! Never was. Made up by "phony scholars" to appease the masses.
You do err about "aidios." Paul uses "aidios" and "aionios" synonymously. Unlike a lot of folks, I have done my own homework. Instead of copy/pasting something someone else wrote without checking it for myself as you have done.

Romans 1:20​

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [αιδιος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Romans 16:26​

(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
To show that was not a one time thing. Another vs. by Paul showing conclusively that "aionios" does mean "eternal."

1 Timothy 6:16​

(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
And once again. Jesus, Himself, defines/describes "aionios" as "eternal/everlasting, twice!

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.
And FYI your "tall" argument does not make any sense.

 

[Der Alte]

*** Secondly, Greek scholars, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli and Joseph B. Rotherham, the creator of the Rotherham Translation of the Bible, would straighten you out in a hurry. You are working under presupposition and making words mean what you wish them to mean instead of being faithful to the Greek.***

I few years ago, right here, one UR-ite quoted Dr. Ilaria Ramelli as saying "Origen spoke many times about 'after aionios life." I decided to buy the publication where Origen supposedly said that.
Here is what Dr. Ramelli claimed Origen said,

"But even the aiónes will come to an end, Origen tells us: “After aiónios life a leap will take place and all will pass from the aeons to the Father, who is beyond aiónios life. For Christ is Life, but the Father, who is ‘greater than Christ,’ is greater than life” (Comm. in Io 13.3; quoted in Ramelli, p. 160).​

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2017/10/08/sometimes-eternity-aint-forever-aionios-and-the-universalist-hope​

And here is what Origen actually said. See any difference?

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen​

"(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.[John 4:13-14]​

(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20" Pg. 23​

 

[Der Alte]

Of course, (but you don't really care, now do you?) that's NOT WHAT THE ORIGINAL GREEK SAYS.
(46) And these shall go away into αἰώνιος (aionios) age-lasting κόλασις (kolasis) correction, but the righteous into into ζωή (life) αἰώνιος (aionios) age-lasting
Who gave you or any Western translator the permission to change the original wording of the Bible to suit your particular taste for tormenting people forever? I know where it started. It started with Augustine, who despite not knowing Greek (and openly admitting he hated the language) had the hubris to translate the manuscripts in Greek anyway and come up with some of the most wretched idea that have cursed Christianity for 1500 years. What's even worse is that the Roman Church, instead of saying, "Hey Augustine, we are going to call a council. We are concerned about some of these strange new teachings of yours." they just plowed ahead, grabbed what he taught, and ran with it.
The result is the difference you see between the merciful soteriology of the Orthodox East, where Christ is the Great Physician and healer, and the Roman influenced West (Both RC and Protestant) where Christ is the angry Judge just waiting to get His hands on you and administer a whuppin'.
You can have that Christ, thank you! Makes me glad I am in the Orthodox Church

Once again. "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. Ain't no way, no how that the adjective "aionios" can be translated as the noun "age" anything. You keep throwing out Augustine as if that is supposed to mean something. Have you ever actually read Augustine? Most of this post is empty copy/paste rhetoric. No credible verifiable evidence of anything.
You want to talk Eastern Orthodox? Here are quotes from the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible.[EOB]

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
FYI I started learning to speak Greek more than 6 decades ago in Germany, overseeing Greek workers on an Army base. Not knowing that I would study Greek at the Graduate level about 2 decades later.
If you are interested here is a link to the definition of "aionios" from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon.

Daily Christian Universalist Verses

Good. Now show me where Josiah said that? It ain't in the Bible. You are the one that is not careful, choosing questionable sources because they support your assumptions/presuppositions. Did you even bother to read the sources I posted, with links, which included archaeological evidence? There...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Mark Quayle]

Everyone who ever lived was a natural man until they repented. Repentance is the transition from the natural man to a Spiritual man. Was God not pleased when you repented? Were you not a natural man before you repented?

Do you have an explanation then, for how this natural man can please God when Romans 8:8 says they cannot?

In 1 Corinthians 2 & 3 Paul tells the Corinthians that even tho they believe they are still carnal, they were still acting like “mere men”. What do you think he meant by “mere men”?

I guess you will have to be more specific where in 1 Corinthians 2 & 3 Paul mentions them being "carnal" and references "mere men". If you are speaking of (I don't want to guess, but) chap 3:1-4, I wonder why you go to the KJV. The Greek doesn't say either one, though it does say they behave as fleshly, i.e. immature. There is no mention of them being, but only behaving, as mere men, where the KJV inserts the word 'mere'. Seems to me that if you would do some looking around comparing one with the other, you might have some of your own questions answered, and some of your posturing eased off.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I have pondered this many times. It would seem not. But then I look at it from the price paid angle. What was the suffering and death of Jesus worth? What is the blood of Christ worth? The payment received on the receipt was "infinite." An infinite payment was for an infinite expense. That infinite expense was humanity in hell for eternity. He paid for it.