Would God Really Send Someone to Hell?

[Der Alte]

Is this the doctrine of "Reserve" as explained here?
This is a long quote but it makes an important historical point. It's an extract from Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years which contains much more such heresy punishable by eternal torture from our Loving Father:
"We cannot read the patristic literature understandingly unless we constantly bear in mind the early fathers' doctrine of "Economy," or "Reserve." Plato distinctly taught it, and says that error may be used as a medicine. He justifies the use of the "medicinal lie." The resort of the early fathers to the esoteric is no doubt derived from Plato. Origen almost quotes him when he says that sometimes fictitious threats are necessary to secure obedience, as when Solon had purposely given imperfect laws. Many, in and out of the church, held that the wise possessor of truth might hold it in secret. when its impartation to the ignorant would seem to be fraught with danger, and that error might be properly substituted. The object was to save "Christians of the simpler sort" from waters too deep for them. It is possible to defend the practice if it be taken to represent the method of a skillful teacher, who will not confuse the learner with principles beyond his comprehension. Gieseler remarks that "the Alexandrians regarded a certain accommodation as necessary, which ventures to make use even of falsehood for the attainment of a good end; nay, which was even obliged to do so." Neander declares that "the Orientals, according to their theology of economy, allowed themselves many liberties not to be reconciled with the strict laws of veracity."
Some of the fathers who had achieved a faith in Universalism, were influenced by the mischievous notion that it was to be held esoterically, cherished in secret, or only communicated to the chosen few,--withheld from the multitude, who would not appreciate it, and even that the opposite error would, with some sinners, be more beneficial than the truth. Clement of Alexandria admits that he does not write or speak certain truths. Origen claims that there are doctrines not to be communicated to the ignorant. Clement says: "They are not in reality liars who use circumlocution because of the economy of salvation." Origen said that "all that might be said on this theme is not expedient to explain now, or to all. For the mass need no further teaching on account of those who hardly through the fear of æonian punishment restrain their recklessness." The reader of the patristic literature sees this opinion frequently, and unquestionably it caused many to hold out threats to the multitude in order to restrain them; threats that they did not themselves believe would be executed.""

I skimmed through the link. A piece of biased rubbish with zero scriptural support. From the above quote a sample "The resort of the early fathers to the esoteric is no doubt derived from Plato."

 

[Lost Witness]

I dont believe God sends anyone to hell.

No, it is us that make that choice through the lives we lead.

Agreed

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I'm not one to argue but I'll just state my personal beliefs; I'm not sure I fully understand the beliefs of the OP so this isn't a debate/argument towards her or anyone else, just an explanation of where I stand:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't believe in a Lake of Fire where sinners are tormented forever. The wages of sin is death. Revelation 20:14 calls it the second death. Malachi 4:3 states that the wicked shall be ashes. So I do not believe in a God who eternally torments sinners; this doctrine, in my view, was left over from a pagan era and used as a fearmongering tactic to bring people into the Christian church.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

In this regard, it's up to us to make a choice between life and death. In other words, those reserved for the lack of fire have settled on eternal suicide. No one's pushing them in; they chose to jump. Everyone must worship and obey the same God, otherwise you will never have peace. But at the same time God isn't going to make anyone love Him; but God is made it clear, the end result is eternal death for anyone who doesn't want to live His way. So if a individual truly hates Him and His way and would rather live in a world of war, murder, rape, theft, distrust, sexual perversion and on and on the sins go, then the end result is death.

God is what unifies all of mankind. A house divided cannot stand. It's God's desire that all repent and seek after His ways; because His ways are righteous and truth and life.

So I agree that an all-good God will enact the death penalty for the sake of righteousness on all who prefer unrighteousness. But those who receive the death penalty are fully aware of the choice they've made.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The question is Moot. And I might add minimalist. Why argue about it. Simply live the best life you can and encourage others to do the same.

 

[Saint Steven]

Is your free will really being exercised in saying "Thy will be done"? Doesn't Christ command us to surrender our free will? Isn't giving up your free will a requirement for entering the kingdom of God?

Wow. Just, wow.
That is the best, most concise, argument I have ever read about free-will. Thanks!

 

[Saint Steven]

The idea that God cares more for human freedom than God does for the actual human is absurd.

Wow, another gem. Thanks!
Where is the REAL violation in terms of free-will?

Ironic that the "gentleman" God that honors free-will, sends humans to a forever burning hell with no hope of escape.
Sounds more like a scoundrel than a gentleman.

 

[Saint Steven]

Some want Eternal Life while others do not...

You can't be serious.

 

[Lost Witness]

Some want Eternal Life while others do not (or at least they do not want it from God) but there is no where else to get it.

Absolutely Agree, Itching ears and Twisted Doctrines leading people to chase after the imaginations of their hearts instead of following the one TRUE GOD!!!
THE MOST HIGH
THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL
THE ETERNAL GOD ALMIGHTY!
HOLY,HOLY,HOLY IS THE LORD OF HOSTS;
THE WHOLE EARTH IS FULL OF HIS GLORY!!!

 

[d taylor]

You can't be serious.

I see it everyday. People refuse to believe in The Messiah for life (Eternal). So how do you describe the rejection of Eternal Life offered by The Messiah.

 

[public hermit]

Wow, another gem. Thanks!
Where is the REAL violation in terms of free-will?

Ironic that the "gentleman" God that honors free-will, sends humans to a forever burning hell with no hope of escape.
Sounds more like a scoundrel than a gentleman.

Yeah, the idea that God honors the human freedom to sin makes no sense. The human dis-ability to sin is not some great good that God values, especially since we have no choice since we are not free from sin. It would be like honoring a child's "ability" to play in the road with oncoming traffic. Our spiritual immaturity is not a great good; it's a stage in our process of becoming what we are created to be, i.e. Christ-like

 

[Saint Steven]

I see it everyday. People refuse to believe in The Messiah for life (Eternal). So how do you describe the rejection of Eternal Life offered by The Messiah.

I don't think they are rejecting "eternal life". Nor do I think they are rejecting Jesus. (The Messiah, as you say)

They are rejecting church. And for good reason. I have attended church most of my life. I stay there when most have left.

Don't get me wrong. I love my church and the wonderful people I fellowship with there.

If you convince someone to receive eternal life from The Messiah, what do you suppose they figure the next step is? (church)

So... what are they REALLY rejecting? It's NOT "eternal life". (or The Messiah)

 

[Saint Steven]

Yeah, the idea that God honors the human freedom to sin makes no sense. The human dis-ability to sin is not some great good that God values, especially since we have no choice since we are not free from sin. It would be like honoring a child's "ability" to play in the road with oncoming traffic. Our spiritual immaturity is not a great good; it's a stage in our process of becoming what we are created to be, i.e. Christ-like

I'm glad we are discussing this whole free-will aspect.

Perhaps you already had this sorted out in your mind. But I realized this week that I hadn't really worked it out.

I had given it some thought, of course, but this is really helping to collect some good points.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not one to argue but I'll just state my personal beliefs; I'm not sure I fully understand the beliefs of the OP so this isn't a debate/argument towards her or anyone else, just an explanation of where I stand:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I don't believe in a Lake of Fire where sinners are tormented forever. The wages of sin is death. Revelation 20:14 calls it the second death. Malachi 4:3 states that the wicked shall be ashes. So I do not believe in a God who eternally torments sinners; this doctrine, in my view, was left over from a pagan era and used as a fearmongering tactic to bring people into the Christian church.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
In this regard, it's up to us to make a choice between life and death. In other words, those reserved for the lack of fire have settled on eternal suicide. No one's pushing them in; they chose to jump. Everyone must worship and obey the same God, otherwise you will never have peace. But at the same time God isn't going to make anyone love Him; but God is made it clear, the end result is eternal death for anyone who doesn't want to live His way. So if a individual truly hates Him and His way and would rather live in a world of war, murder, rape, theft, distrust, sexual perversion and on and on the sins go, then the end result is death.
God is what unifies all of mankind. A house divided cannot stand. It's God's desire that all repent and seek after His ways; because His ways are righteous and truth and life.
So I agree that an all-good God will enact the death penalty for the sake of righteousness on all who prefer unrighteousness. But those who receive the death penalty are fully aware of the choice they've made.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[ozso]

The question is Moot. And I might add minimalist. Why argue about it. Simply live the best life you can and encourage others to do the same.

Yes indeed. Few seem to realize that and are always looking way off into the future, rather than focusing on here and now.

 

[d taylor]

I don't think they are rejecting "eternal life". Nor do I think they are rejecting Jesus. (The Messiah, as you say)

They are rejecting church. And for good reason. I have attended church most of my life. I stay there when most have left.

Don't get me wrong. I love my church and the wonderful people I fellowship with there.

If you convince someone to receive eternal life from The Messiah, what do you suppose they figure the next step is? (church)

So... what are they REALLY rejecting? It's NOT "eternal life". (or The Messiah)

That may be the case for people who witness by inviting people to church. To let the pastor doing the actual witnessing when he preaches. Or that also may be the case for people who present a gospel focusing on sin instead of The Messiah.

But there are still people who are rejecting God's free gift of Eternal Life. Many Biblical example are found in The Bible. Jesus came and even after His many miracles, there were people who did not believe He was who He said He was. In the up and coming 1000 rule of The Messiah, not all will believe in The Messiah during His 1000 year rule on earth. They team up with satan to try and battle against the saints and the beloved city.

 

[JulieB67]

Well, suppose a person rejects God and does not wish to be with him.

Then God would simply blot that person out if that's what they choose. And all loving God would not burn someone for an eternity. When we read the bible, we see that's not his nature. He doesn't even take delight that the wicked shall "perish" so he certainly would not burn someone forever. That doctrine has turned a lot of people off Christianity. The punishment is eternal destruction. If someone still rejects him in the end God will give them that choice. Christ states the Lake of Fire is the second death, not eternal life in hell. And that coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28. And we see that the former things will pass away. And the Lake of Fire would be included in that.

 

[Der Alte]

Then God would simply blot that person out if that's what they choose. And all loving God would not burn someone for an eternity. When we read the bible, we see that's not his nature. He doesn't even take delight that the wicked shall "perish" so he certainly would not burn someone forever. That doctrine has turned a lot of people off Christianity. The punishment is eternal destruction. If someone still rejects him in the end God will give them that choice. Christ states the Lake of Fire is the second death, not eternal life in hell. And that coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28. And we see that the former things will pass away. And the Lake of Fire would be included in that.

Only if you totally ignore what Jesus, Himself, said in Matthew 25:46 and Matthew 7:21-23!

 

[Aaron112]

Then God would simply blot that person out if that's what they choose. And all loving God would not burn someone for an eternity. When we read the bible, we see that's not his nature. He doesn't even take delight that the wicked shall "perish" so he certainly would not burn someone forever. That doctrine has turned a lot of people off Christianity. The punishment is eternal destruction. If someone still rejects him in the end God will give them that choice. Christ states the Lake of Fire is the second death, not eternal life in hell. And that coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28. And we see that the former things will pass away. And the Lake of Fire would be included in that.

With people translating variously the things about eternity and other seemingly endless continuation, there's no end to the confusion , even sometimes for the young and naive who may really want to know the truth, but cannot find it in what they are reading , yet. Eventually, As God Is Pleased , He May Reveal to them, albeit the truth comes with pain, suffering and persecution.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

@Der Alte Please define Capital PUNISHMENT

 

[Der Alte]

@Der Alte Please define Capital PUNISHMENT

I don't recall ever having used that term in this forum. Why have you single me out for this off-topic question? Maybe you give me your definition and I'll tell you if you are right or wrong, which seems to be your intention. Meanwhile I'll let Jesus do my talking.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

And be advised, I can demonstrate from the very words of Jesus alone that Jesus meant exactly what I quoted. Verstehen sie?