Works Relation to Salvation

[Guojing]

So you saying you understand what I meant that it's OK to save spiritual life on Sabbath doesn't mean I'm not lying about what I said? Your sarcasm is getting pretty thick.

You can understand what others are saying, without necessarily agreeing with them.

You never thought that was possible, is that why you think I was being sarcastic?

 

[Guojing]

Yeah, it would be really stupid and hypocritical to say that saving phsical life is more important than spiritual life and I have said long ago here that I agree that it is good to save physical life and not think it's OK to save spiritual life.

If more than 1 reader don't understand what you meant, you could try to put yourself in their shoes and understand where they are coming from, and then phrase it in a clearer manner, like what I have done.

I take it that you have never taught in a school setting before?

 

[Gary K]

If more than 1 reader don't understand what you meant, you could try to put yourself in their shoes and understand where they are coming from, and then phrase it in a clearer manner, like what I have done.

I take it that you have never taught in a school setting before?

I haven't taught school but I have taught a Sabbath School class and people seemed to like it and I've preached and gotten very good responses to my sermons. I was told my sermons were some of the best ever given at that church.

I've never had a problem with being understood before.

 

[rturner76]

Is there a difference between being saved by faith and through faith to you?

I guess not

 

[Gary K]

You can understand what others are saying, without necessarily agreeing with them.

You never thought that was possible, is that why you think I was being sarcastic?

No. I just misunderstood you because of the winking smiley.

 

[Guojing]

I guess not

One clue is given in Hebrews 11, which is written to the Jews.

Do you notice, that all those OT saints, by faith requires a corresponding action from each of them?

So you are correct, for the circumcised, work is absolutely necessary to be saved by faith.

But the elephant in the room is, why did Paul deliberately mentioned that the uncircumcised are saved through faith, if there is no difference between the 2?

 

[Studyman]

Don't get hung up on the act, but mowing a lawn or another servent led task may be used as a mechanism for access into someone's life. That access may be used to share the gospel where otherwise that door was closed because not everyone welcomes the unsolicited gospel the same way but most react favourably to acts in kind. So mowing the law is not about mowing the law, it's about connecting with someone.

I see, so it's OK to break God's Commandments, to preach to someone who doesn't want preached to? This widow you are trying to save, does she have a TV? A radio? Or are you talking about a poor widow secluded off grid in America in 2022, who has never heard of the Bible or Jesus, or who can't read and doesn't like unsolicited visitors?

How does that work? Do you make a deal with this poor widow? "Hey, if you listen to me promote my religion for 30 minutes, I'll mow your lawn on God's Holy Sabbath?

Fascinating.

 

[Leaf473]

How did I know you wouldn't quote me? I've already reread this entire thread and I've never said what you and DamianWarS claim I did.

I quoted things you wrote in my posts #156 and #157. You can deny that you wrote the things attributed to do you in those quote boxes if you wish.

Guojing and I agree on hardly anything but he says I'm telling the truth.

Great! I'm glad he was able to make sense out of what you were saying

This is the last time I ever trust you unless you repent and apologize4.

If I wronged you, I readily repent and ask you to forgive me.

What exactly is it that you feel that I need to repent of?

 

[Gary K]

You too. You ignore my post explaining all of the misunderstanding to keep complaining I said something I never said?

I said those things to you because you refused to believe me. You even quoted my post when I said saving spiritual life is part and parcel of keeping the Sabbath. And you can't understand that either. Sorry. I'm flat out telling you you are brainwashed into your beliefs. There is no other way to explain your your inability to understand the written word.

I can see normal people disagreeing with me, but you cannot understand what I say. That is a vast difference. At first I thought you two were being dishonest, but this is far worse than that.

 

[DamianWarS]

I see, so it's OK to break God's Commandments, to preach to someone who doesn't want preached to? This widow you are trying to save, does she have a TV? A radio? Or are you talking about a poor widow secluded off grid in America in 2022, who has never heard of the Bible or Jesus, or who can't read and doesn't like unsolicited visitors?

How does that work? Do you make a deal with this poor widow? "Hey, if you listen to me promote my religion for 30 minutes, I'll mow your lawn on God's Holy Sabbath?

Fascinating.

Radio/tv/internet or other forms of mass media can all be effective tools for the spreading the gospel. So can being kind to your neighbour. Just because something else is happening doesn't mean we should stop connecting with people and stop sharing the gospel or stop doing good things.

There are always time sensitive tasks that we can help with motivated to show the love of Christ and there are always people who desire help and need that love. We manage this demand all the time so this should not be such a challenge to approach on the Sabbath. But Christ does tells us we may break our Sabbath rest to do good and this is lawful so we are only addressing lawful acts here and although rest is broken no commandment is. Christ's example was saving those in physical distress so if that's the exception does this not extend to the spiritual distress as well?

You seem to be having a forest through the trees problem, getting hung up over details of the person and/or task but missing the point. It's about connecting with people to share the gospel so feel free to replace "widow" with your actual neighbour and "grass cutting" with some other servent led task that would show them love because maybe the tv evangelist hasn't been enough and maybe what they need is you.

 

[Leaf473]

I said those things to you because you refused to believe me. You even quoted my post when I said saving spiritual life is part and parcel of keeping the Sabbath. And you can't understand that either. Sorry. I'm flat out telling you you are brainwashed into your beliefs. There is no other way to explain your your inability to understand the written word.

I can see normal people disagreeing with me, but you cannot understand what I say. That is a vast difference. At first I thought you two were being dishonest, but this is far worse than that.

Hi Gary, I'm assuming that you're talking to me in that post.

Here is the exchange from post #157
________________
First we have this post, quoted here in its entirety:

May we break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life?

Which is responded to with this, again quoted here in its entirety:

That's such an obvious answer I couldn't believe you asked the question. No, we cannot break the Sabbath rest to do that. That is part and parcel of resting on Sabbath.

Gary, the "that" which you say we cannot do refers to "break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life".
___________________

Now, am I confused as to what your position is? Yes. Is it because I am spiritually blind? Possibly. Or there may be something else going on.

Are you saying that we cannot break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life?

 

[Gary K]

Hi Gary, I'm assuming that you're talking to me in that post.

Here is the exchange from post #157
________________
First we have this post, quoted here in its entirety:


Which is responded to with this, again quoted here in its entirety:

Gary, the "that" which you say we cannot do refers to "break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life".
___________________

Now, am I confused as to what your position is? Yes. Is it because I am spiritually blind? Possibly. Or there may be something else going on.

Are you saying that we cannot break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life?

There you go again completely misunderstanding me. I don't know what to say to you any further on the subject. I'll just have to msay goodbye to you on this subject.

 

[Leaf473]

There you go again completely misunderstanding me. I don't know what to say to you any further on the subject.

You could give some real-life examples of what you're saying.

I'll just have to msay goodbye to you on this subject.

As you wish. Have a good one!

 

[Gary K]

You could give some real-life examples of what you're saying.


As you wish. Have a good one!

I know I have in giving examples such as coming here on Sabbath and discussing the Sabbath. I don't know how I can any better example than that but it didn't make any difference.

 

[rturner76]

One clue is given in Hebrews 11, which is written to the Jews.

Do you notice, that all those OT saints, by faith requires a corresponding action from each of them?

So you are correct, for the circumcised, work is absolutely necessary to be saved by faith.

But the elephant in the room is, why did Paul deliberately mentioned that the uncircumcised are saved through faith, if there is no difference between the 2?

I don't know if it is just semantics but it seems to me that the circumcised could only be saved with good works and obedience to the 613 Levitical laws. The uncircumcised have been saved through their faith with their works being a measuring stick of how deep their faith is. It would seem that there is a difference because obedience to Levitical law does not require a personal relationship with God or faith. It seems one could believe whatever they want to in their and as long as they are obedient, they are right with God and their fellow man. The Christian view would indicate that your works are the evidence of your faith while in the old covenant, one is not required to have faith in God but simply obey his commandments.

 

[Guojing]

The uncircumcised have been saved through their faith with their works being a measuring stick of how deep their faith is.

Do you think its possible that, through faith does not mean through their faith but rather through the faith of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16)?

 

[Gary K]

I don't know if it is just semantics but it seems to me that the circumcised could only be saved with good works and obedience to the 613 Levitical laws. The uncircumcised have been saved through their faith with their works being a measuring stick of how deep their faith is. It would seem that there is a difference because obedience to Levitical law does not require a personal relationship with God or faith. It seems one could believe whatever they want to in their and as long as they are obedient, they are right with God and their fellow man. The Christian view would indicate that your works are the evidence of your faith while in the old covenant, one is not required to have faith in God but simply obey his commandments.

So you believe God is unjust and a respecter of persons?

Act_10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

 

[rturner76]

Do you think its possible that, through faith does not mean through their faith but rather through the faith of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16)?

Both?

 

[rturner76]

So you believe God is unjust and a respecter of persons?

I'm not sure what you are responding to but I believe God gave us justice through Christ. I guess I don't know what a respecter of persons applies to. What does that really mean? What are you really getting at?

 

[Gary K]

I'm not sure what you are responding to but I believe God gave us justice through Christ. I guess I don't know what a respecter of persons applies to. What does that really mean? What are you really getting at?

The post of yours that I replied to very strongly implies that God makes a difference between Jews and Gentiles in how He treats them. It implies that God requires obedience from Jews but not from Gentiles.

I don't know if it is just semantics but it seems to me that the circumcised could only be saved with good works and obedience to the 613 Levitical laws. The uncircumcised have been saved through their faith with their works being a measuring stick of how deep their faith is. It would seem that there is a difference because obedience to Levitical law does not require a personal relationship with God or faith. It seems one could believe whatever they want to in their and as long as they are obedient, they are right with God and their fellow man.

What do you do with all the texts having to do with faith and God saying He is the one that sanctified the Jews/Israelites?

Deu_32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Hab_2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

And what about all of Jesus' comments on the necessity of faith made to the Jews? I count almost thirty references to faith in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.