Word-Faith?

[israel_knight]

its a diffrent girl. I so wish i could heal her and if i feel the spirit beconing me to and i know it is ment to be i will lay hands on her. But i have no power of myself. Neither does a pastor unless he has a gift of healing. but why would there be such a gift if it was free for everyone?

 

[Andrew]

Could you explain to me what you mean by interpreting the bible because of personal experiences. I do belive the bible should explain are experiences, not the other way around.

Sure, I simply mean this:

Mr A believes in healing becos he saw many people getting healed at a rally. In fact, his aunt got healed of cancer. So, when he reads scriptures like "Surely he bore our sicknesses and carried our pains", he believes it and interprets it as healing is provided for the believer. So he is interpreting scripture based on experience.

Likewise, Mr B does not believe in healing becos his sister did not get healed. In fact, he knows of many who were prayed for and who did not get healed. So, when he reads the same scriptures as Mr A, he interprets it otherwise, becos his own experiences tell him otherwise.

Both persons are on shaky ground, becos the storms of life and its ups and downs will toss them every which way. They are not grounded on the unshakable Rock and his unchanging Word.

It is the same with evolution. People are using what they see in the world (the bones, fossils etc) to interpret the Bible and tell God what he meant. Rather than starting from the Bible and interpreting those bones and fossils from the point of the truths in the Bible. No one is denying that there are bones and fossils out there. But it is how the evidence is interpreted and where you are coming from, the Word or the world.

 

[israel_knight]

so then which is right a or b? And why?

 

[Andrew]

its a diffrent girl. I so wish i could heal her and if i feel the spirit beconing me to and i know it is ment to be i will lay hands on her. But i have no power of myself. Neither does a pastor unless he has a gift of healing. but why would there be such a gift if it was free for everyone?

The subject of healing is a huge topic. The more I read and the more I learn, the more questions I have also. But thank God we know much more today than say 10 years ago.

I would encourage you to read Kenneth E Hagin for some basic fundamentals on healings and how they operate. Read Smith Wigglesworth and John G Lake too for some really awesome miracles to encourage you.

Basically, there are 2 ways to receive healing. One is by the gifts of healings. Notice its plural. ie when it is in operation in a service, the Spirit gives out freely, say, a gift of healing for cancer, then a gift of healing for migraine, then a gift or healing for backaches, etc. Some healing evangelists are more successful in the area of cancers, some in the area of backaches, some both etc. Why I do not know. Its up to God.

The 'downside' to receiving by this method is that it depends on the Spirit and the minister to who the Spirit works through. IOW, the sick person has to wait for a powerful healing evangelist to come to town, then hope that the gift will operate and be given to him at a particular service. In that sense, you may or may not receive it. And some people dont have time to wait for the next man of God to come to town.

A better and higher way of receiving healing is by the written Word. It is by taking hold of what God says about sickness and healing in his Word and confessing them over the sickness. In short, you are making the physical symptoms and what you see in the natural, 'line-up' with what God says about your body.

Receiving by this way is 'better' in the sense that you dont have to wait for the next healing evangelist to come to town.

There's a lot more to it and I'm afraid I'm only giving you a very crude and watered-down explanation. Its better you read up some good books on healing.

I would also highly recommend FF Bosworth's Christ the Healer and TL Osborn's Healing the Sick.

 

[Andrew]

so then which is right a or b? And why?

I wld say that A is right theologically, BUT not becos his friends got healed, but becos it is revealed in scripture. I hope you will come to the same conclusion thru your own unbiased study of the scriptures regarding healing. You must see it for yourself, not becos someone else told you so.

 

[Luchnia]

Yes, my implication was not really whether Peter or Paul saw that the man had faith to be healed, but more the faith issue for healing. I should have clarified that more and it would not have been an issue of who saw the man had faith to be healed. I appologize for that and do thank you for clearing that up as to which one saw his faith.

It is obvious before anyone can be healed, there must be faith to have it done. Yes, the gifts are turned on and off at will as the many text show. Not only turned on or off, but must be done so as is commanded. Man is even commanded to "be filled" by the Spirit as if one drinks in of liquids. Paul compares this with one who drinks too much. Telling Tim not to be drunk with much wine, but "be ye filled" with the Spirit.

All the great men of God's word turned on the gifts. Stephen is another good example of such. Those that brought their sick into the city and Stephen healed them. Gifts are just like all things in God's word, they are subject to the individual. The gifts are for us to profit from. It is just like your hand. You have the choice of whether to use your hand or not.

Authority is always like that. You have dominion, but it must be used properly and you have total control over when you use the gift. You must know when not to use a gift, just as when to use a gift. The same is with prophecy, tongues, healing, faith, etc.

If it were not possible to use these gifts as stated in God's word, then one sick could not be brought to the elders of the Church and have hands laid on him and he would recover. Laying on of hands would do nothing, or bringing the individual would do nothing, the anointing with oil would do nothing, if those laying the hands on could not use the gift of healing. Pretty simple really when you think about it. Even the gifts can be misused as we see in the case of the back-slidden king Solomon.

Word up!

 

[Luchnia]

One reason this subject is often misunderstood is because people simply do not understand their dominion and authority over things. You see people all the time asking God for things they already have authority over. This is their mistake and they need not expect God to do anything. It doesn't work that way. This is why so many are not healed. God doesn't have a thing to do with this. Jesus dealt with this in His hometown. He did not heal many their because of their lack of faith.

Then they will say something along the lines of, "Well, God decided to say 'no'" There is no one example of God saying, "No" as to something man already has authority over. The only times there is not answered prayer is when man is asking amiss and such.

Just as in the case when Peter chose to use the gift of healing with the crippled man. Peter did not once ask God for anything! He simply gave the man what he had and commanded him to "Rise up and walk." Christians have this same authority and when they start realizing this they will see amazing things start to happen in their lives. It is like a child that you have given authority to that continuously comes back to you and says, "would you do this, or that?" You see that is not authority, but ignorance of the facts. The fact is you gave them authority and it is theirs to use at their discretion.

I have seen people, once they realized this totally change everything around them. They bring sickness to a screaching halt, get their lives in aline with God's word, become powerful for His kingdom. Believe it or not, they now have defeated ignorance in many areas. It takes time for men to put off years of traditional thinking and start realizing what legal rights they have by what God has granted unto them. There are only a few minimal areas where anyone is to ask God directly for things. A careful perusal of His Word by the Spirit will bring this to light.

Word up!

 

[Andrew]

Okay Luchnia,

See what you are saying a fully agree. I guess I was coming from another angle.

 

[Luchnia]

Yes, the more I was reading the post, I thought they were are similar views. I think one of the key problems with typing out thoughts in small paragraphs via electronic medium is the lack of inflection and without that it is most difficult at times know what another is implying.

It is like reading a paragraph and trying to determine what the author would be saying if he were talking to you face to face. Although thought processes vary greatly, I wonder just how much actual disagreement there is. I think it is probably fractional when compared to the grand scope of things and our focal point of Christ. I have been in situations where I quickly discerned that it was more important not to bother with food, rament, keeping a day, drink, or the like, when other things were more important to the individual's spirit. The anointing breaks the yoke

Word up!

 

[look]

I love you debate strategy. You make a claim, and when I answer it, you blow it off as typical even though it proves you wrong.
You asked, and I quote, "Yes, there are records of God's people who died of sickness, but you will not find anything that points the finger to God as the One who put it on the guy..."

How does it prove me wrong? We were talking about God putting sickness on a person to "teach" him something (when we've got the Bible???) and then you brought up a situation of when judgement fell on a guy because of serious disobedience.

There is a big difference between what you were trying to say the whole time and the judgement of God falling on somebody...

All people, regardless of whether or not they follow Christ, are God's people.

That can't be true...All of us are God's creation, but then again, so is the devil...Remember when Jesus said something about "you are the children of Satan?"

Now, if He put it on us out of His own will, it's His will that decides whether or not to remove it.

OK, here's where the rubber meets the road...Please give me two, or better yet, three scriptural references that actually state that...Thanks, bro...

 

[israel_knight]

Ok I guess i don't quite get it. I gues i am uing personal experiance to explain what is happening and the whole issue is relative. I have a gift of tounges and not just a prayer language. I can use it at any time, so i can turn it on or off. I have had people instatly saved by it and not just conviced but have the holy spirit fall apon them and they get very heavy and lay down and it is hard for them to get up. It bears witness with my gift. But not every time so do i have power all the time, or only when the spirit directs me to use it and it works through me. Because i know when i am sopossed to use it, but if i just do it there just empty words.

 

[look]

I think you understand it...just use the guidelines set out that govern the use of tongues. We can choose to yield or we can choose not to yield to the Holy Ghost...

You can turn it off, but you can't turn it on. 1 Corinthians 14:32.And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. The gift (the correct meaning is manifestation) of the Holy Ghost is governed by the Holy Ghost. Again, we can choose to yield or not.

I hope I didn't confuse you more...Keep on praying in the spirit!!!

 

[usadingo]

excuse me but the church carries on his ministry.
Whether its evangelising or healing the sick. Jesus is still healing the sick today, unless of course you think its some other god supplying the power and miracles.

I've answered this so many times that I'm not going to even bother with it again.

I wouldn't call the Pentecostals, charismatics, WOF folks or any Christian who can read the Bible w/o any traditional 'blindings' as "a few". Those that believe Paul's thorn is some sickness, are a dying breed. God is raising up a new generation of Calebs and Joshua (I see that in many youths and teens), the unbelieving traditionals being left to die in the dessert and not enter the promised land.

Riiiiggghhht....While you call them a dying breed, I'll refer to them as the vast majority of practically every group that calls themselves "Christian."

 

[usadingo]

Well, there's not much more to say if you choose to deny plain scripture and call it an opinion.

Isa 53:3,4
3 He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness,
4 Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains--he hath carried them, And we--we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted. [Young's Literal Translation]

Once again, it was fulfilled in Matthew. Fact.

call that an opinion if you want to.

Not a problem. I'll share it with practically every other scholar's "opinions" on this topic.

No, you are losing the argument and running out of things to say, so you're just repeating what I say.

Have you considered a carear in stand-up? That's hilarious.
That's incredibly cocky to say you're winning the argument. At least my arguments don't defy logic.

Well, looks like the Bible is not the sole authority to you, but personal experiences are. You do not even know what God's will is regarding healing.

This coming from a supporter of a movement who's teachers run around yelling, "Look what just happened! They were healed! It must be guarenteed! Hey, do you like my Lexus? God wants to give you one too! Just have enough faith! What's that? Scripture to back it up? Um....hold on, let me twist a few things around here first."
While you follow these folks, I'll continue studing what the Bible actually says while you continue to point to "personal experiences" that I fail to see.

 

[usadingo]

I seriously doubt that if Jesus was still walking the earth today, and that she went to him for healing, he would turn her away and say "Sorry, no can do becos I got bigger plans for you." That wld be the devil talking!

Hey Israel,
Can you imagine if God had plans to use her condition to bring thousands of people to Christ? A lot like Joni Earekson Tada? Man, what a cruel God He'd be if He would have submitted to her will years ago and healed her. Think of all the lost souls!
It's a good thing that God's will is greater than our own. I suppose it makes sense that He tells us to trust Him and His wil.
Imagine how horrible this world would be if people thought their own will was God's, and turned Him into an errand boy doing as they wish!

 

[usadingo]

Mr A believes in healing becos he saw many people getting healed at a rally. In fact, his aunt got healed of cancer. So, when he reads scriptures like "Surely he bore our sicknesses and carried our pains", he believes it and interprets it as healing is provided for the believer. So he is interpreting scripture based on experience.

Likewise, Mr B does not believe in healing becos his sister did not get healed. In fact, he knows of many who were prayed for and who did not get healed. So, when he reads the same scriptures as Mr A, he interprets it otherwise, becos his own experiences tell him otherwise.

Israel,
Of course, just about from an objective standpoint could tell you the argument goes both ways. For example,
Mr. A. sees people getting healed, looks at scripture, and twists it to support a stance that says healing is guarenteed. He's interpreting scripture falsely because his experiences appear otherwise.

Mr. B. sees people going for healing, but not every one getting healed. He looks at scripture and sees others in the Bible not healed like Paul, Job, and others and sees scripture interprets itself. His experiences only support the interpretation.

 

[usadingo]

A better and higher way of receiving healing is by the written Word. It is by taking hold of what God says about sickness and healing in his Word and confessing them over the sickness. In short, you are making the physical symptoms and what you see in the natural, 'line-up' with what God says about your body.

In other words, you're a hypocondriact. You're making up sicknesses. Of course, any doctor will tell you that a hypocondriact won't die of their "sicknesses" because they're not really sick.
Now if we look at what the Word of Faith movement REALLY says, we'd see that if you're sick, it's because of sin. Sin can't be from God, so instead it's of the devil. In other words, Satan is responsible for you being sick.
So what does logic tell us?
If you die in your sickness, you die in your sins. And if you die in your sins, you're on your way to hell.

 

[usadingo]

OK, here's where the rubber meets the road...Please give me two, or better yet, three scriptural references that actually state that...Thanks, bro...

Nice try. I can already see your faulty tactic. Make a claim, tell them to back it up with scripture, and if it can't be done, it's automatically wrong.
I can back it up with logic, but I know you'll blow it off. I'll do it anyway though since the objective outside world can see the faults in your argument when viewed with basic logic.

Fact: There are passages in the Bible where God puts sickness or allows sickness to come on someone. Therefore, if it's His decision that sickness should come upon someone, then it's His decision to take it off. After all, He IS all powerful.
If He is able to put sickness upon someone, but not remove it, then He is not all powerfull.

I challenge you to simply provide me with one verse that states it's God's will for every sick person to be healed.

 

[look]

Usadingo, I'm sorry...I'm not going to debate with you if you can't back your doctrines with scripture. It seems your doctrine is backed from human observation, not scripture. It would be like flogging a dead horse, especially if you have your mind already made up...

Remember, Philippians 2:12. "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

As long as you believe in Jesus, (He is the foundation) you can build on that foundation. However it will be tested by fire. if it is wood, stubble or hay, it will be burned up. However, if your works are precious metals or stones, (believing and doing works of healing, deliverance and so forth...) it will be refined and Jesus will reward you accordingly. There are going to be some folks without any rewards, and they won't even get to hear Jesus utter the words, "Well done my good and faithful servant..."

I'm sure that I will hear those words. I'm obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit and Mark 16:
15.And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam*ed.
17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I know, because I pray for the sick and some of them get healed by their faith. Of course, Jesus worked through my mouth and hands, but it was Him that did the works, just as Jesus prayed and laid hands on the sick and His Father did the works...

Shalom, nothing broken or missing...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]