MikeMcK said:
Look, I provided the references where Copekand has said these things. If you don't believe he did, you're welcome to show us that he didn't.
Actually, the onus is on you to show
us that he did indeed say these thing, for you are the one who made the assertion, not anyone else.
If anything, I can see and hear in your posts, present and past, that you are a super religious person who has allowed a root of bitterness to take root inside of your heart. It is this root that is ruling your interaction among other brethren on this forum and elsewhere...Jesus Himself told us that whatever is in a man's heart is what is going to come out of his mouth (keyboard).
Now for a "brief" cut and paste essay, the same as you have responded to my posts...
"
The difference is, I have provided links to my cites..."
Webster defines "heresy" as, "an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards."[1] In 1 Timothy 4:1 we are told: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." We are told yet again in Heb. 13:9, " Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace..." These passages show us that there is a definite need for the true apologetics[2] ministry in the church.
The early church fathers such as Iraeneus, Origen, Chrysostom, Polycarp, and others spent quite a bit of time defending the truth of Christianity against the well known heresies of their era. These men were true apologists in every sense of the word. Even before them, Paul, John, and the other early apostles had to continually defend the truth against the error that crept into the church.
Though I may not have always agreed with him, Walter Martin, the founder of the Christian Research Institute, was a true apologist. God raised up such a man when the American scene was becoming so filled with cults that it became difficult to distinguish them from Orthodox Christianity. His landmark book, Kingdom of the Cults, provided us with sufficient information on the different cults in America and how to deal with them.
[c]The Difference Between Apologists and Heresy Hunters[/c]
Nevertheless, there comes a fine line between the valid ministry of an Apologist (one who is defending the faith given to the church) and the need to search for something to use against those you may disagree with theologically in order to make them appear cultic and heretical to the general public. The latter is a Heresy Hunter. Heresy Hunting has become a cultic practice unto itself and the purpose of this essay is to show the reader the invalidity of such a practice. I will show you seven tactics that these people use in their vendetta against those they do not agree with. I will especially show you how these tactics have been used in the attacks against the Word of Faith movement.
The heresy hunters seem to enjoy labeling those that they theologically disagree with as "cultic, heretical, etc." The Word-Faith movement has
been labeled a "metaphysical" movement when their has been no trace of metaphysical teaching within this group. We have also been called "Gnostic," "Universalists," "Eastern Mysticism," and a host of other names. One web site labels Marilyn Hickey as the "fairy God-Mother" of the Word of Faith movement.
The heresy hunter even like to falsely label themselves. Many of them say that they are Pentecostals or that they are Charismatics. They do this so that they can be accepted among these particular groups while still attacking everything uniquely Pentecostal or Charismatic. They do this in order to turn the hearts of Pentecostals and Charismatics away from the essential truths that distinguish these two movements. The unfortunate thing is that it has actually worked. Many Pentecostals and Charismatics treat their Word of Faith brethen as if they have been sprayed by skunks. They now do everything to separate them from their groups.
Many of the heresy hunters say that they are members of Assemblies of God churches or affiliated with "Charismatic" churches such as Calvary Chapel. Yet, when you listen to them talk they often sound like Hyper-Calvinists and Cessationists. It's a shame because the same criticism that they make against the Word-Faith and other movements were made against the movements that they claim to be affiliated with.
In the beginning of the Pentecostal movement at Azusa street in 1906, the leaders of this movement, William J. Seymour and Charles Parham were labeled "rulers of spiritual Sodom." Another person labeled them, "Satan's preachers, jugglers, necromancers, enchanters, magicians, and all sorts of mendicants." This same person also labeled the Pentecostal movement as "spiritualism." Another well known preacher of that time labeled it, "the last vomit of Satan." A Bible teacher whose writings I love made a statement about the Pentecostal movement that I disagree with: "emphatically not of God and founded by a Sodomite".[3]
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Pentecostals were also falsely labeled as "hypnotists," "mentally unstable" and attributed the miraculous manifestations in the churches as "demonic power."...
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/seven_tactics.html
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[c]Did Jesus Suffer in Hell?[/c]
Todays Question: "I have a question about Jesus' descent into hell. In Luke 23:43, "And Jesus replied, Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise." TLB
The question I am wondering about is how could He have defeated Satan in hell if He declared to the thief that they both would be in Paradise that day? I believe Jesus made an open display of Satan on the Cross, according to Col.1:14: "Who bought our freedom with His Blood and forgave us all our sins."
Could you also explain to me how the Word of Faith teaching responds to Luke23:43? I'll be waiting for your reply."
Sincerely, William Carpenter
email address deleted for privacy
Bible Answer: I do not dare speak for the entire Word of Faith movement, but I would like to share some of my insights in this area.
As far as the passage in Luke 23:43 Jesus did go to Paradise that day. I agree. Jesus, however, did not say that He would be there for all three days. That's where you make a wrong assumption. Jesus said, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise." Today does not mean three days; it simply means the current day.
Before we proceed any further, we need to establish the fact that man is a three-fold being. God made mans body from the dust of the ground then breathed into him the breath of life which is mans spirit, and man became a living soul (Gen 2:7). He is a spirit, he has a soul, and he lives in a body. "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Thes 5:23). This truth is important to understand if you are to comprehend Christ descent into hell and His victory over the devil in hell.
Next, you need to realize that Adams sin resulted in not just physical death but spiritual death. God warned Adam and Eve, "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen 2:17, KJV). God said they would die in the day that thou eatest. Adam and Eve did not die physically that day, but they did die spiritual on that day. For Christ to eradicate Adams transgression He would have to experience the full judgement of sin, not just physical death.
The Bible teaches there is more than one type of death. As Paul said, "You were dead in your transgressions and sins" (Ep 2:1). This speaks of spiritual death. Then there is the passage in Rev 20:14: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." The soul suffers eternally in the lake of fire. Obviously from these passages there is more than one death. There are three deaths, and they all correspond to our three-fold nature: physical, spiritual, and soulish.
The message of the gospel is simple: Christ died for our sins. Does this mean only physical death? Well, if thats all sin does is kill us physically, then all Christ would have to do is die physically, but as we have already established, there are three deaths of the sinner. So if Christ is to die for the sinner, then He must die in all three ways.
[c]Isaiah the prophet confirms Christ three deaths:[/c]
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. (Isa 53:9)
The Hebrew word used for death1 is plural. Literally it reads, "He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich is his deaths." Scholars still dont understand why it is in the plural, so they usually translate it in the singular.
Isaiah chapter 53 speaks of Christ three-fold death. Isaiah mentions Christ afflictions and woundsthats physical (vs. 4- 5). He also alludes to His spiritual death by saying that the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all (v. 6). Finally Isaiah expresses Christ suffering in hell by declaring:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied
he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa 53:10-11, KJV)
Notice how often Christ' soul is mentioned. Jesus did not suffer in body only; His soul suffered as well. The soul suffers in hell.
Peter, in his first sermon, mentions the suffering of Christ soul in hell:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27, KJV)
Jesus soul was in hell, but not left there. Praise God. Why did Jesus go to hell for us? He went there because the punishment of sin is for the soul to be cast into hell. Since Christ suffered the penalties and punishment for our sins, it stands to reason that He would have to suffer in hell, and He did!
I asked the Lord to give me a clear passage about this and He did. He gave me Leviticus chapter 16. You need to read all of it. There you find the sacrificial order on the Day of Atonement. What is important to notice is that there are three sacrifices on this day: two male goats and one ram for a burnt offering.
From the Israelite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. (Lev 16:5)
Now why are three sacrifices necessary? Simply because the three sacrifices speak of the three-fold death of Christhis physical death, his spiritual death, and his soulish death.
Study the three sacrifices in Leviticus chapter 16. In this passage, only the first goat was killed through the shedding of blood; this speaks of Christ physical death and His shedding of His blood on the cross.
The Second goat had the sins of the nation confessed onto it and then banished alive in the desert; this speaks of Christ spiritual death whereby he became sin for us. This is why Christ said, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me" (Matt 27:46). Jesus was made sin there on the cross (2 Cor 5:21).
And now here is where it gets real interesting. After the sacrifices of these two goats, there is a time lapse. The Priest takes off his filthy garments and puts on clean garments (Lev 16:23-24). He washes himself and makes sure he is clean; this interim period is where I believe Jesus descent into Paradise takes place. Jesus is free from sin and He proves it by saying, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46). Jesus is restored to God the Father and is cleansed much like the Priest was. So Jesus is free from sin when He meets the thief in Paradise.
Now comes the final sacrifice that the priest makes, which is the ram and burnt offering. This is the only sacrifice that is burnt in the fire; I believe this speaks of Christ sacrifice in hell fire.
After Jesus meets the thief that day, the sun goes down over Jerusalem and the Passover officially begins. The first Passover is recorded in Exodus 12. God makes clear when the Passover should begin. (A Jewish day begins at sundown.)
Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. (Exod 12:6)
As you know, Jesus died on the day before Passover. For Jesus to fully fulfill the Scriptures He must be sacrificed on Passover. He was. Jesus descends into hell on Passover day and becomes like the ram in the burnt offering. Passover last for 12 hours. I believe this is the time Jesus suffers in hell. At dawn on Passover, Jesus strips the devil of his authority over mankind. He enters the deepest part of hell called the dungeon and declares His victory over Satan.
He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Pet 3:18-19)
Jesus was made alive in His soul right in hell itself. He then preached victory to the spirits in prison. He also led all the Old Testament saints out of Abrahams bosom.
This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." (Eph 4:8)
