Word-Faith?

[look]

Huge huge difference though.
Many do not go down at alter calls because they do not believe. However, if they did, and went down and did everything because they believe, they would be saved at that exact moment.
With healing, we see many people, like the lady Israel mentioned, who go down for healing over and over again, but are never healed.

?!? How do you know they got saved?

 

[Andrew]

So if we are promised healing just as we are salvation doesn't the same criteria apply? How can people that are not saved and do not meet any of the requirements be healed?

That is the amazing grace of God. When gifts of healings flow in a meeting, it is just that -- gifts. You can't earn it. God freely gives it. Many a times, it is sinners (like the prostitutes and tax collectors) who are able to receive from God, becos they have no confidence in themselves, they dont have a single religious bone, thinking they are good enough to get anything from God.

Sometimes, God performs a miracle on sinners first, b4 they get saved. And when a person is touched so powerfully and intimately by the grace of God, rarely will he walk away from the offer of salvation. It is afterall, the goodness of God that leads one to repentance.

A person was healed in my church. He came up to testify. At the end of the service, when the altar call was given, he gave his life to Christ.

Usu, perhaps also, there is some faith involved. I mean, a sinner-skeptic taking time off to go attend a church service does involve some faith. The healing doesnt just drop on him when he's walking down a street.

Do spirit filled pastors have the power to heal and do other miracles as long as the people have faith.

I think this statement is misleading. No one claims to have the power to heal. You can't turn it on and off as you wish, as though you owned it. When we say so and so has the gifts of healings, what we mean is that God is using him in the area of healing. IOW, during a service the Holy Spirit channels the gifts thru him, using him as the vessel.

There are also 2 main ways to receive healing. One is by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The other is via the written Word. Most people receive thru the latter. The former depends on the will of the Spirit. But this is another topic altogether.

 

[Luchnia]

Interesting statement about turning the gift of healing on and off. It would seem that Peter turned the gift of healing on with the cripple.

After Peter saw the man had faith to be healed, Peter turned on the healing gift he had.

He said, "Silver and Gold have I none, but such as I HAVE GIVE I THEE in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk..."

This is most interesting in light of this discussion. The gifts of God are subject to the individual and are to be controlled in order and not confusion, as it is written of them. Paul even told Timothy to "Stir Up..." the gift that was within him by the laying on of hands by Paul.

Word up!

 

[Andrew]

With healing, we see many people, like the lady Israel mentioned, who go down for healing over and over again, but are never healed.

1. She did not really believe.
2. She received but expected instant results. But becos she did not see instant results, did not believe.

I am not equating healing to the born again experience, as though they are the exact same things. One involves the regeneration of the human spirit, one is the physical body.

What I am saying is that healing is part of the redemptive work of Christ, and that has been proven with scripture.

Again, what I'm challenging you to do is to see that in scripture first, and not look to experiences and peripheral arguments. See the world thru the Word, not the Word thru the world.

If the world says 1+1+1 = 3 but the Bible says = 1, who are you going to believe?

Let me ask you a simple question: If Jesus said "Whatsoever ye desire, when ye pray, believe ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

What is the rule here? To believe it is received first. Then ye shall have them is the physical manifestation of it, which may be instant or gradual or after a year or more. But the point is, we are told by our Lord to BELIEVE YE RECEIVE FIRST!

And if that is the rule, one cant go to God in prayer wondering if God will say yes or no to our request, becos then one cannot be possibly "believing ye receive" at that moment.

What the lady should do is settle in her heart once and for all that the next time she goes up, she WILL receive. Then hold on to that, keep confessing her healing using the Word, until her healing is manifested in the physical realm.

A baby girl who had clubbed feet was prayed for by a minister. He felt power and energy go from his hands right into her feet. But when he opened his eyes, her feet looked just as deformed. But he told her parents it was done.

Her parents believed the report. For the next three days, despite seeing those deformed feet, they would thank God for her healing and confess their little girls healing. They put the Word of God above what they saw in the world. They called things that were not as though they were. After the third, day, the manifestation came and the baby's girls feet began to transform until they looked normal.

Now the couple could have simply given up when they didnt see any instant results, and say that the minister was a hoax, and the little girl wld not have received the manifestation of her healing.

I believe this is what the lady is doing.

 

[Andrew]

Interesting statement about turning the gift of healing on and off. It would seem that Peter turned the gift of healing on with the cripple.

Most assurdly he did not and could not. Any healing evangelist will tell you the same thing. But what they do look out for is the annointing. IOW, when they perceive that the annointing is present to heal, they act.

Btw, it was not Peter but Paul.

Ac 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,

1. The Word was being preached. The annointing to confirm the word preached was hence present.
2. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. This man heard. Faith was imparted.

so, it can be seen that Paul did not just wake up one morning, snap his fingers, turn on his power to heal, and go out and heal this man.

 

[Luchnia]

I was speaking about Peter and not Paul. The Word says Peter did this. The Word could be wrong I guess, but probably not. The gifts of God are always subject to man's will just as it is written of them. It is the same with prophecy, or any gift. It is under the individual's control and even can be misused as it is written as well. Solomon is a good example of misusing a gift of God.

According to the text Peter did just what was written of him. I guess this must be reconciled some way, since Peter gave the man what he had by healing him and Peter did not ask God for anything, just commanded the guy to rise and walk.

Peter saw the man had faith and Peter said, "I have no silver and gold, but I give you what I have; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." (Acts 3:6)

The man shoulted up!

Word up!

 

[usadingo]

I cor 15 says that Jesus died for our sins "... according to the scriptures...". Does the fact that this action fulfilled prophecy somehow annul what He did?

Right. He died for our sins. That was what His attoning work on the cross did. In other words, His death was the payment required for our sins, and He did that.
Sickness, however, is not a sin. His healing ministry was fulfilled before he even went to the cross according to Matthew.

 

[usadingo]

dingo,

OK. . .well, I can see I did not word that very well

What I meant to say is that we are being conformed into His image.

No need to treat me like I'm stupid.
The only reason I ask is because pretty much anyone who speaks out against the Word of Faith movement can give you the quote where Copeland talks about God having a physical body. It goes as far as him stating God has a hand-span of 9 1/2".
I just wanted to see if you were refering to this or not. That's all.

As far as you not seeing physical healing in those scriptures. . .To me, I see that there is WHOLENESS. Not 1/3, not 1/2, but whole. I never made good grades in math but I know that 1/3 does not make a whole.

And I know that if we were in fact made whole, we wouldn't find passages like this in the Bible...

Romans 8:18-25
Future Glory

"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."

Tell me, if we "groan inwardly" for the "redemption of our bodies" from this world created in a "bondage to decay," what does this mean?

When Jesus told the woman that her faith had made her whole. . .would you say it meant spiritual only? If so, why do you suppose she was physically healed? Only to fulfill scripture? Would you say then that Christ studied scripture, and then healed people, not out of compasson for the hurting but just to systematically prove Who He was?

See, Jesus was/is the Messiah. That's a guy who was prophecied about in the Old Testament. Isaiah 53:4-6 is a good example of what the Messiah will do. In fact, there are over 300 prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament. Jesus, through His life, fulfilled all of them. It's a strong case for who He was when examined in context.
He did in fact study scripture. In the New Testament, it tells of Him teaching in the temple when He was young. However, He didn't study so He could go around fulfilling the prophecies. That would be impossible because many of them were out of His hands. Such things like where He would be born, his ancestors, etc.
But now that that's out of the way, John 5 speaks of Jesus healing the man at the pool. Many sick people were there, and Jesus went up to the one man and healed him. He mentioned nothing about the man's faith. In fact, the man didn't even ask Jesus for the healing- Jesus asked the man!
Now tell me, if we have to have faith to be healed, how do you explain this? Could God/Jesus possibly have purpose behind His healings? And if God's desire is to heal all, why did Jesus only heal the one man? Certainly He had the power to heal them all if He wished so.

 

[usadingo]

Ah yes, the famous "sin of Uzziah"? What did you expect? Uzziah (He was the king of 2 Kings 15:5 and his name was also Azariah) had stepped out of his office as king and stepped over into the office of priest. He had commited the grievous sin of "offering up strange incense" to God. (2Ch 26:16-21)

It wasn't like Uzziah didn't know the Law regarding the strange fire and incense, after all, he knew his country's history.

I love you debate strategy. You make a claim, and when I answer it, you blow it off as typical even though it proves you wrong.
You asked, and I quote, "Yes, there are records of God's people who died of sickness, but you will not find anything that points the finger to God as the One who put it on the guy..."
All people, regardless of whether or not they follow Christ, are God's people. He created them. God put the disease on the King. Even if the King was disobeying, it was God who put the disease on him.
If God can put sickness on people then, who's to say He can't do it now?
I never once said that sickness can't be a result of sin. Why? Because God can use it. If we sin, He can use it as a form of discipline. Now, if He put it on us out of His own will, it's His will that decides whether or not to remove it.

Look in Psa 38:7-11, for King David's veneral disease...

I suppose that could be a possibility...
However, it only says his back hurt, he had wounds, his heart pounded, and his friends avoided him. I don't think that's enough information to classify it as an STD.

Brother, I hope you can see that the "church age" is a very special time to live in and snatch people out of the clutches of sin! When the age is over, we are going home!

To which I say to you, ditto.

 

[usadingo]

The traditional belief is that Paul's thorn was some kind of sickness, with speculations ranging from migraine to eye disease to...

In the olden days, this was taught becos people did not believe in a God of miracles, so they had to find verses to support what they see and experience in the natural. This myth has been already debunked a long time ago, using proper Bible study and interpretation principles (basically, let the Bible tell you what "thorn" means). Unfortunately, the damage done continues till today.

If you are interested to know what Paul's thorn really is, read:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/thorn.html

I present a systematic and consistent argument based on the Bible, not wild speculations to fit human experiences.

Just because a few people disagree with the "Paul's thorn" passage, doesn't mean it's been "debunked." Many scholars still hold to the belief that Paul's "thorn" was eye problems.
It seems odd that if he was fine he'd have someone else write for him as the days went on. After all, he used to do all the writings. I know my Grandma had my aunt start writing letters for her as she got older. But that was only because her eyesight was getting bad.

 

[usadingo]

What I am saying is that healing is part of the redemptive work of Christ, and that has been proven with scripture.

You believe it's been proven by scripture. Opinions and facts are two different things.

Again, what I'm challenging you to do is to see that in scripture first, and not look to experiences and peripheral arguments. See the world thru the Word, not the Word thru the world.

And I'm challenging you with the exact same thing.

Let me ask you a simple question: If Jesus said "Whatsoever ye desire, when ye pray, believe ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

What is the rule here? To believe it is received first. Then ye shall have them is the physical manifestation of it, which may be instant or gradual or after a year or more. But the point is, we are told by our Lord to BELIEVE YE RECEIVE FIRST!

Read the rest of the Bible. It says we have to ask in accordence with God's will.
Now here comes the agruement that the Bible is God's will...

What the lady should do is settle in her heart once and for all that the next time she goes up, she WILL receive. Then hold on to that, keep confessing her healing using the Word, until her healing is manifested in the physical realm.

My suggestion Israel, have her realize that God's will and plan for our lives is greater than our own. Point out the numerous amount of people who have brought many to God with less than perfect bodies. Point out that the amazing thing about God is that He doesn't use what we'd expect to get the job done.
He uses the weak, the poor, the guy with the speaking problem, the small, etc.
Our minds tell us a strong, handsome, able bodies mand with great speaking skills would be the best for the job. God says otherwise. He's will and knowledge will always be far from what we can begin to understand, and it's far from me to say I know His will for people.

 

[israel_knight]

God doesn't choose the qualified he qualifys the chosen. I know the reason i was called to that church and it wasn't for there teaching it was to meet the women who will be my wife God has great plans for the two of us which he has revealed.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

No need to treat me like I'm stupid.
The only reason I ask is because pretty much anyone who speaks out against the Word of Faith movement can give you the quote where Copeland talks about God having a physical body. It goes as far as him stating God has a hand-span of 9 1/2".
I just wanted to see if you were refering to this or not. That's all.

dingo, I profusely apologize. What did I say that came across treating you as if you were stupid? When I re-read what I had said the first time I saw that I did not say it very well. . . and that's what I was referring to. I was answering your question in seriousness. I consider you to be quite intelligent and I enjoy very much the conversation with you.

 

[Andrew]

Luchnia,

You are confusing this verse:

Acts 3:6 and Peter said, ‘Silver and gold I have none, but what I have, that I give to thee; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and be walking.’

with this verse:

Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,

Earlier, you said "After Peter saw the man had faith to be healed, Peter turned on the healing gift he had."

You are refering to Acts 3:6 but Acts 3:6 does not say "After Peter saw the man had faith to be healed". This was only recorded in Acts 14:9, where it was Paul who "perceived that he had faith to be healed".

In either case, scripture clearly does not say that Peter or Paul just turned on their gift of healing and healed them. You seem to be adding "Peter turned on the healing gift he had" to scripture. As I already showed you, preaching of the word and faith were involved. The gifts and the power comes from the Spirit, so it is logically as the the Spirit leads, not as we ourselves wish.

anyway, I will not belabour this point with you. anyway, if healing evangelists cld just 'turn on' their gifts of healings at will (as though they owned them) then they should be clearing out hospitals by now.

 

[Andrew]

Sickness, however, is not a sin. His healing ministry was fulfilled before he even went to the cross according to Matthew.

excuse me but the church carries on his ministry.
Whether its evangelising or healing the sick. Jesus is still healing the sick today, unless of course you think its some other god supplying the power and miracles.

Just because a few people disagree with the "Paul's thorn" passage, doesn't mean it's been "debunked." Many scholars still hold to the belief that Paul's "thorn" was eye problems.

I wouldn't call the Pentecostals, charismatics, WOF folks or any Christian who can read the Bible w/o any traditional 'blindings' as "a few". Those that believe Paul's thorn is some sickness, are a dying breed. God is raising up a new generation of Calebs and Joshua (I see that in many youths and teens), the unbelieving traditionals being left to die in the dessert and not enter the promised land.

 

[israel_knight]

Thats not the impression i got. My pastor said when he was filled with the spirit he says he can nock people down and joked that he could blow them through a wall.

 

[Andrew]

You believe it's been proven by scripture. Opinions and facts are two different things.

Well, there's not much more to say if you choose to deny plain scripture and call it an opinion.

Isa 53:3,4
3 He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness,
4 Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains--he hath carried them, And we--we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted. [Young's Literal Translation]

call that an opinion if you want to.

And I'm challenging you with the exact same thing

No, you are losing the argument and running out of things to say, so you're just repeating what I say.

Read the rest of the Bible. It says we have to ask in accordence with God's will.
Now here comes the agruement that the Bible is God's will...

Well, looks like the Bible is not the sole authority to you, but personal experiences are. You do not even know what God's will is regarding healing.

 

[Andrew]

Thats not the impression i got. My pastor said when he was filled with the spirit he says he can nock people down and joked that he could blow them through a wall.

Perhaps you can check with your pastor if he can still do this as and when he wants to, to anybody at anywhere, just by "turning it on".

If the annointing is there, yes, he can do it. And sometimes the annointing remains from anything from an hour to a few days. But if the annointing is not there, he can't do it, though he may be able to 'do' certain things to stir up that annointing.

 

[israel_knight]

Could you explain to me what you mean by interpreting the bible because of personal experiences. I do belive the bible should explain are experiences, not the other way around.

 

[Andrew]

So Israel Knight,

Are you finally telling us that the lady who is in a wheelchair and has gone up many times for healing and who's still not healed is going to be your wife?

If so, then if you had all the power and love in the universe, would you withold healing from her? Do you think Abba Father is like that too?

I can confidently say that He wants her healed more than she or you or anyone of us here wants her healed. For that is the heart of our Father revealed in His Son.

I seriously doubt that if Jesus was still walking the earth today, and that she went to him for healing, he would turn her away and say "Sorry, no can do becos I got bigger plans for you." That wld be the devil talking!