Womens roles in the church

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pescador

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This is something I’ve been confused about for a while, I can’t deny what the Bible says about it, but it seems like God is favoring men over women.
And what about the judge Deborah? Was she not “ruling” over men in a way?

Not "in a way". She was a ruler of Israel.

"She would sit under the Date Palm Tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the Ephraimite hill country. The Israelites would come up to her to have their disputes settled." Judges 4:5

"Deborah said to Barak, “Spring into action, for this is the day the Lord is handing Sisera over to you! Has the Lord not taken the lead?” So Barak went down from Mount Tabor with 10,000 men following him." Judges 4:14

""Warriors were scarce; they were scarce in Israel, until you arose, Deborah, until you arose as a motherly protector in Israel." Judges 5:7

Quotes from the NET
 
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Strong in Him

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As I said all Chrustian women can be called to walk and use gifts God gives within the parameters of His order. But as we read “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man” and many other verses.

Yes, we do. But context is important and a lot of these are taken out of context.
I've asked you before about what it means to "usurp authority" when it is God who gives it and men that recognise it, and not had an answer.
And given that we see women doing all kinds of things in the Bible, proclaiming God's word, (prophetesses, woman at the well, Mary Magdalene), teaching (Priscilla), instructing men (Esther) and sometimes telling them what to do (Sarah, Ruth), what do the words "I suffer a woman not to teach", mean? Paul didn't seem to have a problem with Priscilla teaching Apollos - and it was in Corinth that that happened.

Let's look at the context, and verses, of 1 Timothy 2.
Chapter titles weren't given in the original, but in my Bible, these verses have been given the heading "Instructions on worship".
Paul says that he wants petitions, prayers and intercession to be made for all people - he doesn't say that anyone in particular needs to be leading these; just that it needs to be done. It could be argued that Paul doesn't say that a woman may lead the prayers - but neither does he say that she is forbidden from doing so. And in 1 Corinthians 11 Paul tells women HOW they should pray and prophesy. He does say in verse 8 that he wants men to pray. Does that mean specifically, and only men? I don't know what the Greek says here. But in any case, they should lift up holy hands without anger or disputing.
Does this happen in churches? It should, if people are seeking to obey, and practice, ALL these verses.
Paul says that he wants women to dress modestly - fair enough - and not adorn themselves with gold, pearls or braided hair, but with good deeds. Does that mean that it is forbidden for women to wear gold? That's what it says. So what about wedding rings? Why can't women have braided hair, and have you tried forbidding women with dreadlocks from worshipping?

The Paul says that a woman should learn - opposing the culture of the time which said that women shouldn't be educated - and learn in quietness and submission. No one can learn if they can't hear what's being said.
If Christian women were beginning to be allowed to learn - following Christ's example when he let Mary sit at his feet- maybe they kept interrupting the speaker with questions or comments. Such behaviour would undermine his authority, especially if it led to other comments being made and the service disrupted. This fits with the verses that you quoted from 1 Corinthians 14 - "if they (women) want to enquire about anything, they should ask their own husbands at home". Paul would not have needed to say that if it were not happening; Christian women were able and eager to learn and were calling out questions in the service, or asking the nearest available man, when they should have been keeping quiet and asking their own husbands at home.

Paul mentions Adam and Eve; why?
In Genesis 2:17 we are told that Adam was given a direct command by God. Eve had not been created at this point and we are not told that God spoke to her in the same way. So Eve can only have heard about the tree from Adam. But it appears that either Adam didn't tell her clearly enough, or that Eve simply wasn't listening. Maybe she was talking, or her mind was somewhere else because when the serpent asked "DID God say ......?" and Eve repeated what God had said, she got it wrong - compare Genesis 3:3 with Genesis 2:17.
THAT'S why she was able to be deceived - she was not certain of what God had said; maybe hadn't been listening to her husband. Note that the serpent did not try to deceive Adam - no point; Adam had heard directly from God.
This is another argument for women being able to learn, says Paul; so that they will not be deceived.

I am certain that you will disagree with this; often when I try to explain the importance of context I'm told I am trying to "explain away" Scripture, or the bits of it that I don't agree with.

“ 1 Corinthians 14: 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. ..37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

See above.
And Paul may well have prayed before he wrote those letters and asked the Lord how he should teach those churches in that situation.
But that doesn't mean that this was a command from God for ALL churches at ALL times.

I discuss what this silence is in many post here

I'm sure you do, but have you explained it within the context - i.e that of order in church, only having one prophet or tongues speaker talking at a time and if women want to ask about anything, they should ask their own husbands at home?

And what law teaches that a woman should be "under obedience"?
We are not bound by the law.
 
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pescador

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If one doesn't interpret Paul's writings as a new version of the OT law, then there is no reason that women are incapable of fulfilling any role in the body of Christ to which they are called. This is the 21st Century; our Western society is unimaginably different than the 1st Century.
 
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Strong in Him

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You are assuming a woman has a call to be in oversight in the church, which scripture says they can’t.

No, it doesn't.

so we can not simply go by a persons feeling and saying they are called to do so.

Going by a person's feeling; no.
Listening to a sister in Christ say that she believes God may be calling her to serve him in this way, and allowing that call to be tested; most definitely.

Did you miss the post where I explained the great lengths that Methodists have to go to be ordained? No one would put themselves through that, and subject themselves to that, on the strength of a "feeling"; feelings change and may disappear. God's call doesn't.

does not meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3 (which is only for men)

So you say. Others - and it seems the Greek - disagree.
The Lord wrote those words; I think he knows what they mean, and he calls some women to be ordained.

Would you still say they have a call or that they were creating a call to do what they want contrary to scripture?

I say that they have the right to have what they believe to be a call from God tested.
A call from God does not just disappear, nor is it something that can be dismissed when the going gets too tough. If such a call is submitted to the church, after testing, and all are in agreement, that person will be ordained.
To quote Gamaliel: "if their purpose is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them; you will only find yourself fighting against God". If someone wakes up saying "I think this is a good idea, this is what I want to do", it will be from them and may well fall at the first hurdle. But if it is from God: however hard things are and impossible they look; it will happen.
And yes, I know the circumstances were different for the Apostles, but the principle is the same.
 
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All Glory To God

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The silly comments about needing to be a so-called expert in Greek to "prove" that the Greek means what it means only proves that this person isn't arguing in good faith and may even possibly be incapable of critical arguments if not outright trolling/gaslighting, which is very likely. I'm at the point where I'm reading his posts just to see what new levels of over-the-top ridiculousness he reaches because sometimes I'm just easily amused that way. :)


My dear bekkilyn, this is truly a disappointing message for me to see.

Understanding one's limitations and being honest about them is humility. You think that not trusting in people's abilities (including my own) that lack skill or understanding on a subject is proof I am arguing in bad faith? We clearly are not having the same attitude on these issues. But you have support with @Archivist agreeing with this comment.

This is not about critical argument. Winning or losing. For me this is about honouring Gods will.
 
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Strong in Him

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This is not about critical argument. Winning or losing. For me this is about honouring Gods will.

That's just it.
Women who believe that God is calling them to ordained Ministry are also honouring what they believe to be God's will for them.
Some may be wrong - just as some men may be wrong. Some may be responding with the wrong motive - just as some men may be.
But it's about God's will - and his call, and his guidance, and his right to call whomever he wants, even though some may not like, or understand, it.
 
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All Glory To God

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Except we disagree on what Scripture says about women being pastors. I look at Scripture telling us that in Christ there is neither male nor female. I look at the female deacon and female apostle mentioned by Paul. I look at John’s description of Mary being the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ. It is all in Scripture.


If I understand your system, it goes by who is called and no-one can bind the spirit. That was the point I was making. It is consistent to exclude any professing Christian that claims to be called.

My view is God has already told us in Pauls books, who is eligible to be called and going beyond that is sin because it's disobedience. You will say your interpretation is different. Ok.
 
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The much-debated text of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is not even Paul's commands to the church. It was a short quote from the Corinthian church sent to him in a letter asking Paul's advice on certain matters. This text in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is Paul quoting a brief excerpt from that Corinthian letter written to him earlier. Paul then responds with scorn and a stern rebuke for the men in that church; telling them NOT to forbid speaking in tongues for women.

Because people have gotten confused on this point, they have mistakenly presumed that this was Paul's opinion in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 that women should keep silent in the church. Instead, it was actually the legalistic believers in the Corinthian church who were fabricating that artificial command out of traditional rabbinical oral laws of the time, combined with some gender bias. Paul firmly squashed their opinion on this subject by countering it in 1 Corinthians 14:36-40.
 
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trophy33

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This is the 21st Century; our Western society is unimaginably different than the 1st Century.
In some things its different, in some things its very similar.

But what is the reasoning regarding the issue here? That our current view is superior because its ours?
 
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trophy33

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And as I said many posts ago, Luther was a man of his time. I don’t know why you can’t seem to understand that.
Because this claim has no meaning. Its no reasoning about if he was right or wrong and why.
 
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If I understand your system, it goes by who is called and no-one can bind the spirit. That was the point I was making. It is consistent to exclude any professing Christian that claims to be called.

My view is God has already told us in Pauls books, who is eligible to be called and going beyond that is sin because it's disobedience. You will say your interpretation is different. Ok.

I am looking at scripture itself. Phoebe was a deacon, although Scripture tells us that a deacon is the be the husband of one wife. Junia was an apostle. Mary was the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ. Other women are specifically named in Paul's letters. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge and a prophet. Scripture tells us that in Christ there is no male nor female. Yet you want to ignore this. No, it is not a sin for a woman to be ordained.

Again, if you don't believe in female clergy then don't join a denomination that ordains women.

BTW, I don't have a "system." Not sure what your meaning is.
 
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bekkilyn

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My dear bekkilyn, this is truly a disappointing message for me to see.

Understanding one's limitations and being honest about them is humility. You think that not trusting in people's abilities (including my own) that lack skill or understanding on a subject is proof I am arguing in bad faith? We clearly are not having the same attitude on these issues. But you have support with @Archivist agreeing with this comment.

This is not about critical argument. Winning or losing. For me this is about honouring Gods will.

I'm sure lots of sea lions would agree with you, but I'm more of a polar bear fan myself.
 
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Archivist

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Because this claim has no meaning. Its no reasoning about if he was right or wrong and why.

Wrong. Luther would have said that we should have persecuted Anabaptists and witches. Today we would say that he was wrong but that was the commonly held view when Luther lived. He was a man of his time.
 
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trophy33

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Of course it can be used as proof. Something you did not note is that the majority of English translations translate the Greek as “among the apostles,” meaning that she was an apostle. You might want to read the following: Junia, a Female Apostle: An Examination of the Historical Record
It can be translated both ways, so the majority does not matter. Of course translations will not be by accident mathematically equal 50:50, so one reading must be a majority.

However, I do not think that the majority translates it according to your view (I do not see it as a relevant point, though - and many translations seem to be ambiguous even in English):

New International Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

New Living Translation
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.

English Standard Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

Berean Study Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Berean Literal Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, and who were in Christ before me.

King James Bible
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

New King James Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

New American Standard Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding in the view of the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

NASB 1995
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

NASB 1977
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Amplified Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and [once] my fellow prisoners, who are held in high esteem in the estimation of the apostles, and who were [believers] in Christ before me.

Christian Standard Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

American Standard Version
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Invoke the peace of Andronicus and of Junia, my relatives who were captives with me and were known by The Apostles and they were in The Messiah before me.

Contemporary English Version
Greet my relatives Andronicus and Junia, who were in jail with me. They are highly respected by the apostles and were followers of Christ before I was.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners: who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

English Revised Version
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

Good News Translation
Greetings also to Andronicus and Junia, fellow Jews who were in prison with me; they are well known among the apostles, and they became Christians before I did.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Greet Andronicus and Junia, who are Jewish by birth like me. They are prisoners like me and are prominent among the apostles. They also were Christians before I was.

International Standard Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who are in prison with me and are prominent among the apostles. They belonged to the Messiah before I did.

Literal Standard Version
greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

NET Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my compatriots and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

New Heart English Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my compatriots and my fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Weymouth New Testament
and to Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen, who once shared my imprisonment. They are of note among the Apostles, and are Christians of longer standing than myself.

World English Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Young's Literal Translation
salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.
 
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bekkilyn

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The much-debated text of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is not even Paul's commands to the church. It was a short quote from the Corinthian church sent to him in a letter asking Paul's advice on certain matters. This text in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is Paul quoting a brief excerpt from that Corinthian letter written to him earlier. Paul then responds with scorn and a stern rebuke for the men in that church; telling them NOT to forbid speaking in tongues for women.

Because people have gotten confused on this point, they have mistakenly presumed that this was Paul's opinion in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 that women should keep silent in the church. Instead, it was actually the legalistic believers in the Corinthian church who were fabricating that artificial command out of traditional rabbinical oral laws of the time, combined with some gender bias. Paul firmly squashed their opinion on this subject by countering it in 1 Corinthians 14:36-40.

The thing is, they really don't care about facts, these fundamentalist zealot and/or trolling types. They're far more interested in the joys of mathematics, most especially division. The problem is that they never reach the levels of calculus in which some of these integral problems might be solved.
 
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trophy33

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Wrong. Luther would have said that we should have persecuted Anabaptists and witches. Today we would say that he was wrong but that was the commonly held view when Luther lived. He was a man of his time.
It seems you do not understand the point. The fact that our time is different from his does not mean we are right and he was wrong. You must provide some reasons.
 
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In some things its different, in some things its very similar. But what is the reasoning regarding the issue here? That our current view is superior because its ours?

Our current view on many things is superior not because it is ours but because it is right. Should be be burning Anabaptists? Of course not, but in the 1500's burning them was the generally accepted view. My former Amish neighbors are probably very happy that we no longer do that.
 
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trophy33

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Our current view on many things is superior not because it is ours but because it is right. Should be be burning Anabaptists? Of course not, but in the 1500's burning them was the generally accepted view. My former Amish neighbors are probably very happy that we no longer do that.
We are not discussing burning the anabaptists.
 
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It seems you do not understand the point. The fact that our time is different from his does not mean we are right and he was wrong. You must provide some reasons.

You really need reasons as to why he was wrong on burning witches and Anabaptists? I would think that the fact that people then were killing innocents for reason would be sufficient.
 
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