Witchcraft in the Church

[Natsumi Lam]

The interesting thing I'm noticing here in this thread is that those who come from more charismatic type churches say they notice this kind of thing in their churches, but those who associate with more traditional, mainline churches are saying, "We don't see it."

Just because a person doesnt see it in their congregation doesnt mean it isnt happening.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Well, I have a foot in both worlds (charismatic and "mainline," although I maintain that mainline doesn't mean much outside America), and I have an open mind on the subject.

Me too

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Just because a person doesnt see it in their congregation doesnt mean it isnt happening.

Actually, to some extent, I agree with you, Natsumi. But I think we need to be careful in how we handle people and not get too worked up about the seeming presence of spiritual misdirection. I don't want sound like the pastors you've had who have told you to chill out, but on some things, we need to realize that we might be getting too worked up about situations in the church where we find a few people here and there who have been dabbling in the occult, whether it's just reading their daily horoscope, to playing a Ouija board, or even dallying with the nearby practices of a local coven.

On the other hand, I do understand your concern that a good number of Christians out there just plain ignore all of this occult stuff all the way around and don't see any traces of spiritual warfare as they peer through the church. There is a devil to deal with.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Actually, to some extent, I agree with you, Natsumi. But I think we need to be careful in how we handle people and not get too worked up about the seeming presence of spiritual misdirection. I don't want sound like the pastors you've had who have told you to chill out, but on some things, we need to realize that we might be getting too worked up about situations in the church where we find a few people here and there who have been dabbling in the occult, whether it's just reading their daily horoscope, to playing a Ouija board, or even dallying with the nearby practices of a local coven.

On the other hand, I do understand your concern that a good number of Christians out there just plain ignore all of this occult stuff all the way around and don't see any traces of spiritual warfare as they peer through the church. There is a devil to deal with.

I agree...i also think, from my experience over the last 25 years at various churches, that fear of dealing with the enemy and occult infultration are the culprits. You r right we dont fight against flesh and blood. I think people fear getting into battle and remembering that we have armour for a reason.

 

[PloverWing]

The interesting thing I'm noticing here in this thread is that those who come from more charismatic type churches say they notice this kind of thing in their churches, but those who associate with more traditional, mainline churches are saying, "We don't see it."

I think this is probably an accurate observation. I'm enough of a child of the Enlightenment that I have trouble believing in genuinely effective magick. I'm open to the hypothetical possibility, but it would take some pretty solid evidence to persuade me that I was looking at a truly magical event. I suspect I'm typical of members of mainline churches, and in fact this may be one of the significant differences between mainline and charismatic churches.

I'm not at all denying evil in its various forms. Greed, malice, simmering anger, envy -- these are all plain to see. People definitely act in various ways that cause harm to others. But my default approach is to attribute these things to human beings, rather than the successful conjuring of outside spirits.

 

[FireDragon76]

My objection has more to do with the horrible abuses that occurred when Christians believed that witches lived under every rock and tree, and the thousands of people that were persecuted as witches. As a result, I have no desire to dabble in witchhunting or anything like that.

Wiccans and neopagans are typically hippies and religious dissenters that want to have their own self-styled spirituality. And those that actual do put curses on people need to be prayed for. But I see no reason how a spirit of fear or suspicion is particularly edifying for Christians living in the 21st century.

 

[Phil 1:21]

So you're wanting to know how a pastor is supposed to deal with sin among the congregation? I would think that's pretty basic stuff.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

My objection has more to do with the horrible abuses that occurred when Christians believed that witches lived under every rock and tree, and the thousands of people that were persecuted as witches. As a result, I have no desire to dabble in witchhunting or anything like that.

Wiccans and neopagans are typically hippies and religious dissenters that want to have their own self-styled spirituality. And those that actual do put curses on people need to be prayed for. But I see no reason how a spirit of fear or suspicion is particularly edifying for Christians living in the 21st century.

Personally i dont believe they are under every rock.

IMHO it sounds like you are up in arms with a hint of defense for them.

Do you believe witchcraft can be found in churches?

If it can be found, wouldnt you want it exposed?

I am asking if it has been exposed...what do you do next?

I am not promoting a stirit of fear but the spirit of discernment and wisdom.

And of course pray for them.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

So you're wanting to know how a pastor is supposed to deal with sin among the congregation? I would think that's pretty basic stuff.

How would a pastor address an issue of someone bringing division, strife and death to his church? It is not a passive sin i am speaking about but a purpose of direct combat and willful hostility to the success and health of his congregation. An attack not passivity.

 

[Phil 1:21]

How would a pastor address an issue of someone bringing division, strife and death to his church? It is not a passive sin i am speaking about but a purpose of direct combat and willful hostility to the success and health of his congregation. An attack not passivity.

And how does that invalidate my response?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you believe witchcraft can be found in churches?

You weren't asking me, but speaking personally--no.

This comes across as little more than just another panic--we saw these sorts of panics in the past with the Salem Witch Trials, and again in the 1970's and 80's.

It's superstitious hogwash.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Natsumi Lam]

And how does that invalidate my response?

It doesnt except it is not sin alone.

How would you deal with the situation post exposure?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes

I guess I'm going to need something more substantial than just someone telling me it happens. Like, I don't know, actual documented evidence.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Natsumi Lam]

You weren't asking me, but speaking personally--no.

This comes across as little more than just another panic--we saw these sorts of panics in the past with the Salem Witch Trials, and again in the 1970's and 80's.

It's superstitious hogwash.

-CryptoLutheran

Unfortunately as one who has been apart of deliverance and has a spirit of discernment, and someone who has personally experienced this as part of the congregation...i will kindly have to disagree.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

I guess I'm going to need something more substantial than just someone telling me it happens. Like, I don't know, actual documented evidence.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok, do you have the gift of discernment? If not ask for it as one of the gifts if God wills. If so try different Churches, maybe not ur own, but ask the Lord to reveal it to you. You will come accoss it today in churches...especially in areas of high pop of satanists and those who practice the " dark arts" or magick.

I have an uncle who participated in this for a living almost a living that is. I have been in close contact with a leader of my church who participated in witchcraft and purposely brought control, division, rebellion, gossip and false prophecies infront of the congregation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think this is probably an accurate observation. I'm enough of a child of the Enlightenment that I have trouble believing in genuinely effective magick. I'm open to the hypothetical possibility, but it would take some pretty solid evidence to persuade me that I was looking at a truly magical event. I suspect I'm typical of members of mainline churches, and in fact this may be one of the significant differences between mainline and charismatic churches.

I'm not at all denying evil in its various forms. Greed, malice, simmering anger, envy -- these are all plain to see. People definitely act in various ways that cause harm to others. But my default approach is to attribute these things to human beings, rather than the successful conjuring of outside spirits.

Orthodox Christian teaching is fundamentally at odds with belief in magick. In the middle ages the Church worked hard to get people to give up their folk superstitions about witches (belief in witches and that such witches have actual magickal power is a pagan belief, not a Christian one). Belief in witches was regarded as heresy, and witch-hunting was condemned by European rulers (most famously under Charlemagne). It isn't until near the end of the middle ages with the publication of the Malleus Maleficarum in the 15th century that opinions began to change. We associate witch-hunts with Medieval Europe, but the actual truth of the matter is that witch-hunts weren't really a thing in the middle ages, virtually all organized witch-hunts were in the early modern period, and weren't done in Catholic dominated territories, but Protestant ones. Which is why the Salem Witch Trials weren't some bizarre vestige of the medieval past, but was actually representative of attitudes of the 17th century.

The idea that Satan has god-like power and has human servants who can use such power (i.e. magick) is both heretical and blasphemous. It is ascribing to the enemy a power that, though less, no creature ever has had. The devil isn't a god, but a creature, he does not have power over the heavens and the earth, instead he is a liar, he was a liar from the beginning, and he's a liar now.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Natsumi Lam]

I guess I'm going to need something more substantial than just someone telling me it happens. Like, I don't know, actual documented evidence.

-CryptoLutheran

So in your case...if you were the pastor ...and this did happen..how would you address this issue?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Orthodox Christian teaching is fundamentally at odds with belief in magick. In the middle ages the Church worked hard to get people to give up their folk superstitions about witches (belief in witches and that such witches have actual magickal power is a pagan belief, not a Christian one). Belief in witches was regarded as heresy, and witch-hunting was condemned by European rulers (most famously under Charlemagne). It isn't until near the end of the middle ages with the publication of the Malleus Maleficarum in the 15th century that opinions began to change. We associate witch-hunts with Medieval Europe, but the actual truth of the matter is that witch-hunts weren't really a thing in the middle ages, virtually all organized witch-hunts were in the early modern period, and weren't done in Catholic dominated territories, but Protestant ones. Which is why the Salem Witch Trials weren't some bizarre vestige of the medieval past, but was actually representative of attitudes of the 17th century.

The idea that Satan has god-like power and has human servants who can use such power (i.e. magick) is both heretical and blasphemous. It is ascribing to the enemy a power that, though less, no creature ever has had. The devil isn't a god, but a creature, he does not have power over the heavens and the earth, instead he is a liar, he was a liar from the beginning, and he's a liar now.

-CryptoLutheran

Then how can the enemy steal, kill and destroy?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Orthodox Christian teaching is fundamentally at odds with belief in magick. In the middle ages the Church worked hard to get people to give up their folk superstitions about witches (belief in witches and that such witches have actual magickal power is a pagan belief, not a Christian one). Belief in witches was regarded as heresy, and witch-hunting was condemned by European rulers (most famously under Charlemagne). It isn't until near the end of the middle ages with the publication of the Malleus Maleficarum in the 15th century that opinions began to change. We associate witch-hunts with Medieval Europe, but the actual truth of the matter is that witch-hunts weren't really a thing in the middle ages, virtually all organized witch-hunts were in the early modern period, and weren't done in Catholic dominated territories, but Protestant ones. Which is why the Salem Witch Trials weren't some bizarre vestige of the medieval past, but was actually representative of attitudes of the 17th century.

The idea that Satan has god-like power and has human servants who can use such power (i.e. magick) is both heretical and blasphemous. It is ascribing to the enemy a power that, though less, no creature ever has had. The devil isn't a god, but a creature, he does not have power over the heavens and the earth, instead he is a liar, he was a liar from the beginning, and he's a liar now.

-CryptoLutheran

Just because the past did it the wrong way doesnt mean we now, with knowledge of the past, cant do it the right way.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So in your case...if you were the pastor ...and this did happen..how would you address this issue?

If I met someone who claimed to be a "witch" and was playing make believe thinking it would cause a problem in the church? Well, I would probably invite them to have a chat, and ask if there's anything they need help with. I would assume at this point that they were a deeply troubled individual, and would probably recommend they seek counseling. I would also offer to pray with them.

Christ said His Church would stand even against the very gates of Hades, so I'm not terribly concerned about imaginary magick causing problems. The devil is a weakling and a coward, and is terrified of the truth. And since "one little word shall fell him" we would continue to preach the Word and administer the Sacraments--these things alone cause the devil to tremble and quake in fear.

-CryptoLutheran