Wine

[fields316_2000]

Was the wine back in Jesus day alcoholic or was it just grape juice? Ive found many references in proverbs that too much wine will get you drunk..but one of the brothers at church told me that it was only enough alcohol to purify it enough to drink - so you wouldnt get sick..but you d have to drink like 50 bottles just to get toasty..whats the word say?

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

I would have thought that the wine was alcoholic, though I don't imagine it was as strong as some modern wines.

 

[stray bullet]

Was the wine back in Jesus day alcoholic or was it just grape juice? Ive found many references in proverbs that too much wine will get you drunk..but one of the brothers at church told me that it was only enough alcohol to purify it enough to drink - so you wouldnt get sick..but you d have to drink like 50 bottles just to get toasty..whats the word say?

All wine was alcoholic.

I am a brewer of beer, wine, cider, et cetera. Basically, if you leave out unfermented juice, it will turn into alcohol.

What people who make wine do is deliberately and rapidly spoil their product with a yeast and under conditions that makes the best tasting end result.

In the past, people that had vineyards, if they left out their juice, it would ferment anaerobically, which produces alcohol, but leaves a lot of nutrients and some sugars. They eventually found some batches made better tasting wine than others, so they experimented with exposing the new juice to old wine, which passed over the best yeast... thus began wine making.

People take pasteurization for granted and think people 2000 years ago had fridges and sealed juice... didn't work that way. If you wanted meat to last, you salted it. If you wanted juice to last, you fermented it with your favorite yeast, otherwise it would ferment on its own unpredictably.

 

[wellman]

I like a good, well aged bottle of cabernet sauvignon, with brazed turkey in marsala sauce with mushrooms .....

 

[InspiredHome]

Timothy was told to take a little wine for his health problems.

I Timothy 5:23
23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Also, the Bible warns against drunkeness

Ephesians 5:18
18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.


So I doubt they were drinking grape juice!

 

[Serapha]

Was the wine back in Jesus day alcoholic or was it just grape juice? Ive found many references in proverbs that too much wine will get you drunk..but one of the brothers at church told me that it was only enough alcohol to purify it enough to drink - so you wouldnt get sick..but you d have to drink like 50 bottles just to get toasty..whats the word say?

Hi there!



"don't quote me"... but if my memory is good, then water was regularly mixed with 1 part wine to 20 parts water... and any wine that was "blessed" had to be mixed with water, I believe 3 parts wine to one part water. There were different ratios for different usages.


Today, though, Palestine/Israel/Jordan all receive water from the Jordan, purified and no need for adding "wine" for health reasons.


~serapha~

 

[PapaLandShark]

Eh...to address the OP... The question had never occured to me so off I went to look. There are 256 references to Wine in the NAS. Some of these references are too "new wine" which I'll have to look into deeper. Others were quite clear about the effects and strength of wine back when. Strong stuff. Get nekkid and loose memory type strong.

Kids...cover your eyes...

[size=+0]Genesis

[/size][size=-1]Genesis 9:21
He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.

[/size][size=+0]Deuteronomy

[/size][size=-1]Deuteronomy 29:6
"You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

[/size][size=+0]1 Samuel

[/size][size=-1]1 Samuel 1:14
Then Eli said to her, "How long will you make yourself drunk? Put away your wine from you."

[size=-1]1 Samuel 1:15
But Hannah replied, "No, my lord, I am a woman oppressed in spirit; I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but I have poured out my soul before the LORD.

[/size][/size][size=+0]Song of Solomon

[/size][size=-1]Song of Solomon 5:1
"I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride;
I have gathered my myrrh along with my balsam.
I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey;
I have drunk my wine and my milk.
Eat, friends;
Drink and imbibe deeply, O lovers."


[/size][size=+0]Isaiah

[/size][size=-1]Isaiah 28:1
Woe to the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,
And to the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
Which is at the head of the fertile valley
Of those who are overcome with wine!


[size=-1]Isaiah 29:9
Be delayed and wait,
Blind yourselves and be blind;
They become drunk, but not with wine,
They stagger, but not with strong drink.


[size=-1]Isaiah 49:26
"I will feed your oppressors with their own flesh,
And they will become drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine;
And all flesh will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior
And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."


[size=-1]Isaiah 51:21
Therefore, please hear this, you afflicted,
Who are drunk, but not with wine:


[/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+0]Jeremiah

[/size][size=-1]Jeremiah 23:9
As for the prophets:
My heart is broken within me,
All my bones tremble;
I have become like a drunken man,
Even like a man overcome with wine,
Because of the LORD
And because of His holy words.


[size=-1]Jeremiah 51:7
Babylon has been a golden cup in the hand of the LORD,
Intoxicating all the earth.
The nations have drunk of her wine;
Therefore the nations are going mad.


[/size][/size][size=+0]Joel

[/size][size=-1]Joel 1:5
Awake, drunkards, and weep;
And wail, all you wine drinkers,
On account of the sweet wine
That is cut off from your mouth.


[/size][size=+0]John

[/size][size=-1]John 2:10
and *said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."

[/size][size=+0]Ephesians

[/size][size=-1]Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

[/size][size=+0]Revelation

[/size][size=-1]Revelation 17:2
with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality."

[size=-1]Revelation 18:3
"For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality."[/size][/size]

 

[Crispie]

Real Alchohol Wine. Especially since regular drinks would spoil back then (no refigeration).

 

[Christ Aficionado]

All wine was alcoholic.

I am a brewer of beer, wine, cider, et cetera. Basically, if you leave out unfermented juice, it will turn into alcohol.

What people who make wine do is deliberately and rapidly spoil their product with a yeast and under conditions that makes the best tasting end result.

In the past, people that had vineyards, if they left out their juice, it would ferment anaerobically, which produces alcohol, but leaves a lot of nutrients and some sugars. They eventually found some batches made better tasting wine than others, so they experimented with exposing the new juice to old wine, which passed over the best yeast... thus began wine making.

People take pasteurization for granted and think people 2000 years ago had fridges and sealed juice... didn't work that way. If you wanted meat to last, you salted it. If you wanted juice to last, you fermented it with your favorite yeast, otherwise it would ferment on its own unpredictably.

I found a research article by an author who states that in ancient times they did have the ability to preserve unfermented juice (grape juice, etc.):

"In comparison to preserving fermented wine, preserving grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process. It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, or by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly indicates that the means of preserving grape juice without fermentation were known and used in the ancient world. This conclusion is indirectly supported by the teachings and example of Jesus."

His research indicates that the wine Jesus drank, and the water he turned into wine, was not alcoholic.

Link: http://www.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html

 

[Bradford]

Thread has been moved from General Apologetics to Genreal Theology.

Please remember Rule 6 will now attach to this thread.

Please do not report non-Christian posts above this one.

Thanks you.

 

[ps139]

The Bible says wine, its wine.

If you come from a Mediterranean heritage, you will know its wine too.

Welch's wasn't around back then.

This whole "grape juice" thing comes from a very unbiblical notion that alcohol is inherently evil and must not be consumed (see 1 Timothy 5:23). "Research" like the one above are attempts to justify this false teaching.

Go to Israel today and ask them if their ancestors drank grape juice.

 

[SPALATIN]

I found a research article by an author who states that in ancient times they did have the ability to preserve unfermented juice (grape juice, etc.):

"In comparison to preserving fermented wine, preserving grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process. It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, or by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly indicates that the means of preserving grape juice without fermentation were known and used in the ancient world. This conclusion is indirectly supported by the teachings and example of Jesus."

His research indicates that the wine Jesus drank, and the water he turned into wine, was not alcoholic.

Link: http://www.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html

No, it indicates that juice was more syrup than it was juice. And how would they keep the water cold in the desert climate? Fermentation was a inevitable process in that day and age. If it had been juice only I am sure the bible would have indicated such.

 

[ps139]

And how would they keep the water cold in the desert climate?

Probably by a very expensive process that a poor man like Jesus could not afford.

“Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

 

[Zoomer]

The Bible says wine, its wine

.

If you come from a Mediterranean heritage, you will know its wine too.

Welch's wasn't around back then.

This whole "grape juice" thing comes from a very unbiblical notion that alcohol is inherently evil and must not be consumed (see 1 Timothy 5:23). "Research" like the one above are attempts to justify this false teaching.

Go to Israel today and ask them if their ancestors drank grape juice.

 

[Oblio]

Well, the Church has been using alcoholic wine for 2000 years. Absent of any Scripture that declares otherwise, I would say that the wine of the Bible was alcoholic.

 

[stray bullet]

I found a research article by an author who states that in ancient times they did have the ability to preserve unfermented juice (grape juice, etc.):

"In comparison to preserving fermented wine, preserving grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process. It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, or by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly indicates that the means of preserving grape juice without fermentation were known and used in the ancient world. This conclusion is indirectly supported by the teachings and example of Jesus."

His research indicates that the wine Jesus drank, and the water he turned into wine, was not alcoholic.

Hi
These claims of temporary juice perservation come up and they are valid, but not practical. People who had vineyards stored their valuable product by fermenting it. No one is going to play games with a year's harvest so someone can have grape juice in February. One single mistake can ruin a whole batch of juice and turn it into something putrid if the wrong bacteria gets in it.

Let's look at the individual pieces of this 'research'-
"In comparison to preserving fermented wine, preserving grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process."

First off, this is downright false. Preventing fermentation is FAR harder than getting grape juice to ferment. You know why? Because it will ferment unless you preserve it. To ferment grape juice, all you need to do is expose it to a jar or some wine of a previous batch.
In fact, if you just leave the juice out it will ferment. Keeping juice unfermented in the ancient world would have been a great challenge.

It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration,

I am afraid to say this one is goes right against logic. If you filter the fermentables, that is, the sugars, out of juice, you end up with water. It is just silly, there is no reason to make grape juice just to squeeze out water from it and remove the sugars.

Secondly, I'd love to see how they managed to filter out sugars from the juice given the technology at the time.

or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water

This won't work either. Yeast can work at temperatures approaching freezing. So, unless they found a way to freeze the juice, there was no way to stop the risk of natural fermentation.

His research indicates that the wine Jesus drank, and the water he turned into wine, was not alcoholic.

He may believe that, but tradition holds otherwise and there is no reason to believe it.

IMO, people just need to realize back then, people lived in a culture with respect to regular use of alcohol.

 

[YahwehLove]

Was the wine back in Jesus day alcoholic or was it just grape juice? Ive found many references in proverbs that too much wine will get you drunk..but one of the brothers at church told me that it was only enough alcohol to purify it enough to drink - so you wouldnt get sick..but you d have to drink like 50 bottles just to get toasty..whats the word say?

What do the scriptures SHOW on the matter ?

Never take any mans word for anything without comparing it to scripture.
If they conflict, the man is incorrect by default;

 

[Oblio]

Secondly, I'd love to see how they managed to filter out sugars from the juice given the technology at the time.

And after that, I would like to see how they drank it

 

[YahwehLove]

The Bible says wine, its wine.

I cant think of any better way to put that