Wine

[Theophorus]

This whole debate is because of this verse in Habakkuk:

2:15
"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to [him], and makest [him] drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!" (KJV)


Some cannot reconcile this verse with Christ changing the water into wine at the marriage in Cana. As a result, an eloborate grapejuice theory has been constructed to deal with what is a percieved contradiction, or possoble sin.

The LXX states what the sin is more clearly;

"Woe to him that gives his neighbor to drink the thick lees of wine, and intoxicates him, that he may look upon their secret parts." (Brenton's)

 

[Tetzel]

I think that the definition of drunkeness has become much stricter in the modern era.

It might be useful to remember that in biblical times and long after that society did not have the heavy machinery and automobiles that are so dangerous to operate after drinking. Thus while 300 years ago someone might have had a few ales or wines and walked home "in the spirit" today a person would be a "drunk driver" The bible quotations seem to indicate that it is bad to become insensate with drink or to use alcohol to cause your neighbor to become extremely drunk for the purposes of exploitation.

 

[artofwar]

I personally see nothing good about alcohol, it has done much more bad to society than good, so Why dabble in it?

 

[ps139]

I personally see nothing good about alcohol, it has done much more bad to society than good, so Why dabble in it?

Because Paul said a glass of wine is healthy

 

[artofwar]

Yes but then he says do not get drunk, so why dabble at all?

 

[ps139]

Well he does say a glass of wine is healthy.

If you get drunk off one glass, then do not "dabble."

But if not, then a glass of wine is fine, and is recommended by an apostle in the Scriptures.

 

[artofwar]

Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to [him], and makest [him] drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!" i dont know about you but it says just gives not just drunk.

I think we need to put in all in context. Paul also says that women should cover their heads in church, do you believe this also?

 

[Cliff2]

When it comes to drinking wine or consuming alcohol in any form the Bible condems it outright.

It is the greatest used drug in society today.

There are no special advantages to be gained by using it that cannot be gained just by eating red grapes. The great advantage is eating red grapes is that one does not have a hang over the next day.

 

[Theophorus]

Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to [him], and makest [him] drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!" i dont know about you but it says just gives not just drunk.

I think we need to put in all in context. Paul also says that women should cover their heads in church, do you believe this also?

Yes

 

[artofwar]

When it comes to drinking wine or consuming alcohol in any form the Bible condems it outright.

It is the greatest used drug in society today.

There are no special advantages to be gained by using it that cannot be gained just by eating red grapes. The great advantage is eating red grapes is that one does not have a hang over the next day.

AMEN

 

[Theophorus]

When it comes to drinking wine or consuming alcohol in any form the Bible condems it outright.

It is the greatest used drug in society today.

There are no special advantages to be gained by using it that cannot be gained just by eating red grapes. The great advantage is eating red grapes is that one does not have a hang over the next day.

Wine was looked upon as a blessing in many OT passages. How do you account for that?

 

[33ad]

I found a research article by an author who states that in ancient times they did have the ability to preserve unfermented juice (grape juice, etc.):

"In comparison to preserving fermented wine, preserving grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process. It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, or by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly indicates that the means of preserving grape juice without fermentation were known and used in the ancient world. This conclusion is indirectly supported by the teachings and example of Jesus."

His research indicates that the wine Jesus drank, and the water he turned into wine, was not alcoholic.

Link: http://www.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html

Your quote source is an SDA institution, thus making any commentary from there subject to their "Politically Correct Adventist" version to perpetuate the myth that there was a way to preserve wine without it fermenting.
Why did Jesus say that we put "new wine" in "new wineskins"? So that there was elasticity to take up the gas of fermentation.

In Jesus time, it was not PC to drink undiluted wine, therefore the host of the party determine how 'merry' his party was going to be by how much water he mixed with his wine.

The Orthodox Church continues this tradition by mixing water with the communion wine, but it is also heated, to represent the water and blood that flowed from Jesus side.

Kolya

 

[33ad]

Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to [him], and makest [him] drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!" i dont know about you but it says just gives not just drunk.

I think we need to put in all in context. Paul also says that women should cover their heads in church, do you believe this also?

Yes, the Orthodox Church encourages their women to cover their heads. It's not compulsary, but my wife feels "out" if she has forgotten her scarf.

Kolya

 

[33ad]

When it comes to drinking wine or consuming alcohol in any form the Bible condems it outright.

Cliff,
The SDA's have obviously censored these texts from your bible:

Deuteronomy 14:22-26 (New International Version)

22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.


Deuteronomy 14:22-26 (Contemporary English Version)

22 People of Israel, every year you must set aside ten percent of your grain harvest. 23 Also set aside ten percent of your wine and olive oil, and the first-born of every cow, sheep, and goat. Take these to the place where the LORD chooses to be worshiped, and eat them there. This will teach you to always respect the LORD your God.
24 But suppose you can't carry that ten percent of your harvest to the place where the LORD chooses to be worshiped. If you live too far away, or if the LORD gives you a big harvest, 25 then sell this part and take the money there instead. 26 When you and your family arrive, spend the money on food for a big celebration. Buy cattle, sheep, goats, wine, beer, and if there are any other kinds of food that you want, buy those too.

Seems you may not know your Bible like you should?

Kolya

I didn't just 'drop out' of Adventism. I did my homework too!

 

[Cliff2]

Look at the word "wine" and see how many times the Bible says to stay away from it.

 

[33ad]

Look at the word "wine" and see how many times the Bible says to stay away from it.

Good point. But as you and I've stated, the bad part about drinking alcohol is the 'getting out of it'. Having a cup of diluted wine is good for you. Having 3 or more cups is overdoing it.

The same could be said of a good plate of vegetarian food. One plate is good for you, having 2 or three is bad. (I wonder why obesity is such a problem in the SDA church?)

Kolya

 

[ps139]

Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

How can a Christian who takes the scriptures as his authority possibly claim that any use of wine is immoral or sinful or that we should not do it? St. Paul says it! I find it amazing that some want to make an absolute rule on alcohol consumption, and totally ignore the advice of the greatest evangelist ever!
I've been accused as a Catholic of believing in "traditions of man," but this no alcohol consumption is a real "tradition of man" if I've ever seen one. It goes directly against the Bible.

 

[Zoomer]

Look at the word "wine" and see how many times the Bible says to stay away from it.

The Bible does not say stay away from wine but it does say not to get drunk on wine. It's all about moderation. If you cannot control yourself then it's better not to drink. It's also a good idea, not to drink in front of those who cannot control themselves, as not to cause others to stumble. However, drinking wine in itself is not condemned.

 

[Cliff2]

Genesis 9:21
When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.

Genesis 9:24
When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,

Genesis 19:32
Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."

Genesis 19:33
That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

Genesis 19:34
The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father."

Genesis 19:35
So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

Deuteronomy 29:6
You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

Judges 13:4
Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean,


Judges 13:7
But he said to me, 'You will conceive and give birth to a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from birth until the day of his death.' "


Judges 13:14
She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her."


That should be enough, there are many more to support the non-drinking of fermented drink in the Bible.

 

[Oblio]

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