Wine

[ps139]

Cliff, are you saying that St. Paul is incorrect? Is he teaching bad morals?

 

[elman]

Was the wine back in Jesus day alcoholic or was it just grape juice? Ive found many references in proverbs that too much wine will get you drunk..but one of the brothers at church told me that it was only enough alcohol to purify it enough to drink - so you wouldnt get sick..but you d have to drink like 50 bottles just to get toasty..whats the word say?

It was alcoholic. The rule not to drink is from men and not God.

 

[SPALATIN]

Genesis 9:21
When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.

Genesis 9:24
When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,

Genesis 19:32
Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."

Genesis 19:33
That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

Genesis 19:34
The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father."

Genesis 19:35
So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

Deuteronomy 29:6
You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

Judges 13:4
Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean,


Judges 13:7
But he said to me, 'You will conceive and give birth to a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from birth until the day of his death.' "


Judges 13:14
She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her."


That should be enough, there are many more to support the non-drinking of fermented drink in the Bible.

Most likely you have taken these verses out of the true context for which they were used. Your position is that of a legal moralist and is not biblical. We do not live under the law for the laws sake, but for the sake of Christ. Cliff, these verses do not support your position at all. You can't make people bend to your moralist ways based on this or to say that you are right and everyone else is wrong. It doesn't work that way and deep down you know it.

 

[zjl56]

Some make the point of that the Old Testament Forbids it but Jesus used it himself. Unless he condehmed it how do we not know he just wanted us to rid ourselves of those certain laws in the Old Testament? For Jesus's teachings should be followed more than the laws of the Old Testament.

 

[Christ Aficionado]

In fact, if you just leave the juice out it will ferment. Keeping juice unfermented in the ancient world would have been a great challenge.

Let's say that the 'wine' that Jesus turned into water was freshly pressed grape juice. The Bible tells us that is was 6 jars filled with about 20-30 gallons of wine. Let's also say it is about 80 degrees outside, which is a normal temperature for Jerusalem. How long would that freshly pressed grape juice take to ferment? What would the alcohol content be?

 

[stray bullet]

Let's say that the 'wine' that Jesus turned into water was freshly pressed grape juice. The Bible tells us that is was 6 jars filled with about 20-30 gallons of wine. Let's also say it is about 80 degrees outside, which is a normal temperature for Jerusalem. How long would that freshly pressed grape juice take to ferment? What would the alcohol content be?

Well, I see no reason to assume He made grape juice, given that the culture He was in would have been used to wine.

To answer your question, it simply depends on how much yeast was in there and what kind it was. I have no idea on how quickly wine ferments if exposed to jars containing yeast.

To answer your question, if you add yeast to a bucket of juice, you can see noticeable fermentation in a matter of a few hours and convert the bulk of the sugars to alcohol within 24 hours.

Regardless, I think He made wine because the bible says so, as does tradition.

 

[stray bullet]

Speaking of the scriptural references to alcohol, let's also remember the bible, for example, spends a great deal talking about sex and is very much opposed to fornication, adultery, et cetera.

In fact, the apostle Paul went so far as to say celibacy is preferred in 1st Corinthians, Chapter 7. Does that mean sex is immoral? Of course not, only when used outside of God's will and plan for us.


I don't mean to seem sarcastic, but I consider alcohol almost a gift from God in the ancient world. The coolest thing about fermentation is you can't mess it up. Unlike improperly salting meat, or canning, you can't poison wine. None of the deadly bacteria which contaminates our food work as fermenting agents. So, you can make bad tasting wine, but you don't have to worry about getting a bad strain accidently. Homebrewing is legal because unlike distilling, you can't hurt yourself any more than with store bought alcohol.

Why is this a 'gift'? Wine would have been a regular source of vitamins in the ancient world. You don't exactly exactly see oranges growing in the winter, yet, you can get all the nutrition found in grapes by drinking wine.
It has many health benefits on its own.
It can be used to purify water for drinking. Those with upset stomachs could use its deadly affects on microbes in the days before antibiotics.

Finally, without alcohol, how could anyone tolerate the pain of surgery, which did take place in the ancient world? Before pain killers, all you had was alcohol.


Like sex, it has a lot of great things going for it, but also can be very destructive. With all things, consideration needs to be taken in if it serves God or does the opposite.

 

[Tetzel]

Let's say that the 'wine' that Jesus turned into water was freshly pressed grape juice. The Bible tells us that is was 6 jars filled with about 20-30 gallons of wine. Let's also say it is about 80 degrees outside, which is a normal temperature for Jerusalem. How long would that freshly pressed grape juice take to ferment? What would the alcohol content be?

Unless you have some kind of textual backing for this hypothesis (for example if you could demonstrate that the original texts were in a language that would not differentiate unfermented wine, I believe it's called "must", and fermented wine), I see no reason why the hypothesis should even be entertained.

 

[ClementofRome]

"His research indicates that the wine Jesus drank, and the water he turned into wine, was not alcoholic."

If this is the case, why were the partiers so shocked that the wine was the "good stuff" as opposed to the custom of serving the good first and the cheaper last as tounges were less sensitive.

Nonsense.

 

[Cliff2]

"His research indicates that the wine Jesus drank, and the water he turned into wine, was not alcoholic."

If this is the case, why were the partiers so shocked that the wine was the "good stuff" as opposed to the custom of serving the good first and the cheaper last as tounges were less sensitive.

Nonsense.

Don't be fooled into thonking that Jesus made wine and people got drnuk on it and it was OK to do so.

The wine Jesus made was grape juice.

There is just too much in the Bible condeming the use of wine to think otherwise.

 

[prodromos]

There is just too much in the Bible condeming the use of wine to think otherwise.

No. There is much in the Bible condemning the misuse of wine.

 

[33ad]

Don't be fooled into thonking that Jesus made wine and people got drnuk on it and it was OK to do so.

The wine Jesus made was grape juice.

Cliff, Please get real! This is an Adventist myth, and only SDA's with blinkers on believe it. My sister in California is SDA, and they're going to have a swell Christmas Party - with WINE.

Get off your soapbox and stop critisizing everybody else. Have you looked at the statistics of Alcohol Abuse in the SDA church? They're shocking!

Start by living a humble Christ centred life, and others will notice, and you will draw men to Jesus living in you. No one has ever been persuaded to convert by critisism of their own beliefs.

It's only when you show by practical living that your belief is worth knowing about that you'll get people interested to listen.

Here on CF, all who belong to a church believe in the saving power of Christ. We represent many denominations, and open discussion of our beliefs with one another is good, as long as we don't take a superior attitude that we are the ONLY right party.

We can all agree to disagree on many points, and our understanding of other beliefs ond our own become enriched when we do it in a spirit of non-confrontation.

A Blessed Christmas to you all.

Kolya

 

[Thursday]

The wine Jesus made was grape juice.

There is just too much in the Bible condeming the use of wine to think otherwise.

Paul told Timothy to drink wine. How can you deny that?

 

[Cliff2]

Cliff, Please get real! This is an Adventist myth, and only SDA's with blinkers on believe it. My sister in California is SDA, and they're going to have a swell Christmas Party - with WINE.

Get off your soapbox and stop critisizing everybody else. Have you looked at the statistics of Alcohol Abuse in the SDA church? They're shocking!

Start by living a humble Christ centred life, and others will notice, and you will draw men to Jesus living in you. No one has ever been persuaded to convert by critisism of their own beliefs.

It's only when you show by practical living that your belief is worth knowing about that you'll get people interested to listen.

Here on CF, all who belong to a church believe in the saving power of Christ. We represent many denominations, and open discussion of our beliefs with one another is good, as long as we don't take a superior attitude that we are the ONLY right party.

We can all agree to disagree on many points, and our understanding of other beliefs ond our own become enriched when we do it in a spirit of non-confrontation.

A Blessed Christmas to you all.

Kolya

Can't speak for your folks where they are but can say for sure there will not be any SDA's from our family or Church drinking wine on Xmas or any other day.

As for the abuse you claim, don't know about it so can't comment on it.

 

[Cliff2]

Paul told Timothy to drink wine. How can you deny that?

The wine Paul is talking of is the non-alcoholic variety, that is grape juice.

It has to be to be consistent with what is in the Bible.

 

[Oblio]

The wine Paul is talking of is the non-alcoholic variety, that is grape juice.

It has to be to be consistent with what is in the Bible.

The Bible speaks of not being drunk with wine. How is this consistent with it being grape juice ?

 

[BjBarnett]

the wine Jesus drank was alcoholic. The proof for this is in all the times where he and his disciples were accused of being drunk. the only way they could of thought they were drunk is if they were drinking alcoholic wine.

 

[Cliff2]

the wine Jesus drank was alcoholic. The proof for this is in all the times where he and his disciples were accused of being drunk. the only way they could of thought they were drunk is if they were drinking alcoholic wine.

How do you think think Jesus remained sinless if he drank alcoholic wine?

 

[ClementofRome]

How do you think think Jesus remained sinless if he drank alcoholic wine?

Because it is not a sin to drink alcoholic wine. Please show me the scripture that says so. It is a sin to fall into drunkeness or abuse of the wine.

 

[Christ Aficionado]

Unless you have some kind of textual backing for this hypothesis (for example if you could demonstrate that the original texts were in a language that would not differentiate unfermented wine, I believe it's called "must", and fermented wine), I see no reason why the hypothesis should even be entertained.

The term used in the New Testament for wine is "Oinos". Oinos can mean either fermented or unfermented grape juice.

Here is another research article on the definition of wine:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/2.html