Will there be a second chance for salvation after the Rapture?

Ronald

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Some Bible interpreters believe that there will be absolutely no chance for salvation after the Rapture. However, there is no place in the Bible which says this or even hints to it. There will be many people who come to Christ during the Tribulation. The 144,000 Jewish witnesses (Revelation 7:4) are Jewish believers. If no one can come to Christ during the Tribulation, then why are people being beheaded for their faith (Revelation 20:4)? No passage of Scripture argues against people having a chance to be saved after the Rapture. Many passages indicate the opposite.

Another view is that those who hear the gospel and reject it before the Rapture cannot be saved. Those saved during the Tribulation, then, are those who had never heard the gospel before the Rapture. The “proof text” for this view is 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11, which says the Antichrist will work miracles to deceive “those who are perishing” and that God Himself will “send them a powerful delusion” to confirm them in their unbelief. The reason given is that “they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (verse 10). Granted, those who are hard-hearted toward the gospel before the Rapture are likely to remain so. And the Antichrist will deceive many (Matthew 24:5). But “those who refused to love the truth” does not necessarily refer to people who heard the gospel before the Rapture. It could be anyone who wholly rejects God’s salvation, at any time. So, there is no clear scriptural evidence to support this view.

Revelation 6:9-11 speaks of those martyred during the Tribulation “because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained.” These martyrs will correctly interpret what they see during the Tribulation and will believe the gospel themselves and call on others to repent and believe as well. The Antichrist and his followers will not tolerate their evangelism and will kill them. All of these martyrs are people who were alive before the Rapture, but who were not believers until afterward. Therefore, there must be opportunity to come to Christ in faith after the Rapture.

Read more: Will there be a second chance for salvation after the Rapture?
I do read about and hear of people that foolishly say they will wait to commit themselves to Christ until then. Some even seem to look forward to the tribulation so they can go through the trials to "prove themselves". Those that make those statements must have no idea how devastating a time that will be, especially the last 3-1/2 yrs. God must show great mercy during the time of tribulation, IMO, to bring so many into His Kingdom with the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish witnesses.
Quasar92

1. The rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet (which is the last trumpet) [Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1Thes. 4:16,17] and so we must endure through the first six trumpets - however long that may be. Also Revelation is not in chronological order, events and chapters overlap, trumpet and bowl events fall within the seals as well to give us a sphere of vantage points. So for instance Rev. 11:15 is also the same event of Rev 7:9 from a different vantage point. Chapter 14 is a different vantage point of chapter seven where we see the 144,000 Jewish converts. It stands to reason that the trumpets are blown in succession but maybe within a short period of time and maybe as soon as the next Feast of Trumpets this year! Why? Because Rev. 12:1 will be revealed on 9-23-2017!!! Yes, we are close. But back to the trumpets, it's not like the first is blown and then all the events tied to it happen and finish and then the next trumpet and so on.
2. When the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way - since we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that the 144,000 are sealed just prior to this event. Many things occur at the seventh trumpet: The mystery of God is revealed; Christ appears; the resurrection of the church (rapture); The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's; The dead are resurrected and judged; We receive rewards according to our deeds; The Temple of God is open in heaven and the Bowls of God's wrath in full are released!
3. No one left on earth after the seventh trumpet is blown repents, they actually curse God (Rev.16:11) and war against Him. Repentance is not possible without the Holy Spirit, without God drawing the individual. His plan involves His church that has a finite number in His Book, so once judgment reigns down, there is no option, no grace on earth except the protection of the remnant Israel who will be put through the fire. Babylon, the world system, the prostitute that corrupted all nations falls at this time of wrath. God purposed this period of time for those sinners who did not repent, not for us. And remember the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs as well. What does this mean? Billions more of souls who have been locked in Hades are now brought to life to suffer on earth during this wrath of God upon the earth. I do not know why this isn't brought up. It's not like they will be zombies like some movies portray. No, they will once again become a living being on earth but will be subject to HELL ON EARTH and ultimately will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
God has given everyone ample opportunities in their lives and they chose other religions, atheism and their own way. Actually He does give final warnings - which I believe the six trumpets are, but they will pass it off as natural causes just man being evil.
4. Heads are being chopped off now and have been in Muslim countries. Rev. 20:4 is the signature of the Beast, which is ISLAM and of course ISIS is ISLAM who are terrorizing the world. Christians beheaded before the 7th trumpet (Rev. 6:9-11) and these are the ones clothed in white and their question is asked, how much longer oh Lord ... and the answer is when the number is complete. And as I already mentioned, Revelation is like a sphere of vantage points and not chronological, so Rev. 20:4 is most likely different vantage point of Rev. 6:9-11.
Once that number is complete, that's it, no one beyond that point repents because that is how God ordered it, He has a finite number, knows who will be saved and there is the red line that He draws. Left to themselves, they have no choice but to rebel, hate, kill, turn on one another, brother against brother, etc. Those whom He intended for repentance, repented before that sound of the last trumpet!
 
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Yahchristian

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When the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way - since we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.


Will anyone get saved during the Tribulation?

If so, will this apply to them...

John 14:16... And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
 
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jgr

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Two-Phased Messianic Passages

This means that it is legitimate to argue for a gap of time from the other Messianic passages that also include, in a single passage, the two elements of Christ’s career. Dr. Randall Price makes note of the way Scripture uses time gaps and provides a list of passages that fit into this category in the following statement:

Perhaps the most well-known example of the kind of prophecy about which I speak is found in Christ’s reading of Isaiah 61:1-2 as recorded in Luke 4:16-30. The passage reads as follows:

Tim LaHaye and I have a chart diagramming this passage in our new book called Charting the End Times. We say concerning this passage:

Another example of what some have called "double reference" is found in Zechariah 9:9-10. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum says concerning double reference:

In the same context we see that verse nine refers to Christ’s first coming:

Verse ten is a reference only to Christ’s second coming as follows:

In the Zechariah passage, there has to be a gap of time between the fulfillment of the verse nine that relates to Messiah’s first coming two thousand years ago, and His second advent, which is still a yet future event. Even though no time factor is explicitly stated in the text, because of the specific nature of the events described in the two verses, a gap of time is required to coordinate the fulfillment of this prophecy with the events of history.

So much for "Two-Phased (Faced?) Messianic Passages":

Isaiah 61
1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4
18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 21
22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Matthew 5
4
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.


Zechariah 9
9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

John 16
33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Ephesians 2
17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Jude 1
25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 
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Quasar92

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1. The rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet (which is the last trumpet) [Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1Thes. 4:16,17] and so we must endure through the first six trumpets - however long that may be. Also Revelation is not in chronological order, events and chapters overlap, trumpet and bowl events fall within the seals as well to give us a sphere of vantage points. So for instance Rev. 11:15 is also the same event of Rev 7:9 from a different vantage point. Chapter 14 is a different vantage point of chapter seven where we see the 144,000 Jewish converts. It stands to reason that the trumpets are blown in succession but maybe within a short period of time and maybe as soon as the next Feast of Trumpets this year! Why? Because Rev. 12:1 will be revealed on 9-23-2017!!! Yes, we are close. But back to the trumpets, it's not like the first is blown and then all the events tied to it happen and finish and then the next trumpet and so on.
2. When the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way - since we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that the 144,000 are sealed just prior to this event. Many things occur at the seventh trumpet: The mystery of God is revealed; Christ appears; the resurrection of the church (rapture); The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's; The dead are resurrected and judged; We receive rewards according to our deeds; The Temple of God is open in heaven and the Bowls of God's wrath in full are released!
3. No one left on earth after the seventh trumpet is blown repents, they actually curse God (Rev.16:11) and war against Him. Repentance is not possible without the Holy Spirit, without God drawing the individual. His plan involves His church that has a finite number in His Book, so once judgment reigns down, there is no option, no grace on earth except the protection of the remnant Israel who will be put through the fire. Babylon, the world system, the prostitute that corrupted all nations falls at this time of wrath. God purposed this period of time for those sinners who did not repent, not for us. And remember the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs as well. What does this mean? Billions more of souls who have been locked in Hades are now brought to life to suffer on earth during this wrath of God upon the earth. I do not know why this isn't brought up. It's not like they will be zombies like some movies portray. No, they will once again become a living being on earth but will be subject to HELL ON EARTH and ultimately will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
God has given everyone ample opportunities in their lives and they chose other religions, atheism and their own way. Actually He does give final warnings - which I believe the six trumpets are, but they will pass it off as natural causes just man being evil.
4. Heads are being chopped off now and have been in Muslim countries. Rev. 20:4 is the signature of the Beast, which is ISLAM and of course ISIS is ISLAM who are terrorizing the world. Christians beheaded before the 7th trumpet (Rev. 6:9-11) and these are the ones clothed in white and their question is asked, how much longer oh Lord ... and the answer is when the number is complete. And as I already mentioned, Revelation is like a sphere of vantage points and not chronological, so Rev. 20:4 is most likely different vantage point of Rev. 6:9-11.
Once that number is complete, that's it, no one beyond that point repents because that is how God ordered it, He has a finite number, knows who will be saved and there is the red line that He draws. Left to themselves, they have no choice but to rebel, hate, kill, turn on one another, brother against brother, etc. Those whom He intended for repentance, repented before that sound of the last trumpet!


The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.


Quasar92


Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church


The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92
 
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So much for "Two-Phased (Faced?) Messianic Passages":

Isaiah 61
1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4
18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 21
22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Matthew 5
4
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.


Zechariah 9
9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

John 16
33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Ephesians 2
17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Jude 1
25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


Please tell us what your point is in the above!


Quasar92
 
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Ronald

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Will anyone get saved during the Tribulation?

If so, will this apply to them...

John 14:16... And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
"The multitude in heaven which no man could number , of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,, stood before the throne and before the Lamb ..." (Rev. 7:9), is the raptured church "who came out of the Great Tribulation" (vs. 14). So the answer is yes. Being taken out of means you were in it, in the middle of it but not the worst part. And the other verse you gave confirms that the Holy Spirit goes with the entire church.
 
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Ronald

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The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.
Quasar92
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Ronald

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The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.


Quasar92

Response to #1 .
John 14:2-4 > heaven has many mansions and He will come and receive us doesn't confirm Pre-Trib view.
1 Thes. 4:13-18 confirms His coming at a trumpet call and our resurrection, not Pre-Trib view.
2 Thes. 2:1-8 says that "the falling away and the revealing of the son of perdition comes prior to the second coming and then in #2 you say just the opposite, a contradiction.
Did you just copy these scriptures from someone else and pretend to know what you are talking about?
Rev. 3:10 "I will keep you from the hour of trial" which means Judgment/ wrath in the full served in the seven bowls.
Rev. 4:1,2 "Come up here" is an invitation to come through the doors of heaven and see God's throne. This does not support pre-trib.
#2 Already debunked that 2 Thes. 2:1-8 is pre-trib, so next up would be the 7-year tribulation! It's 1260 days/ 3 1/2 years/ 42 months not 7 years. You are getting that from Daniels 70th week which happened right after the 69th - there was no gap.
#3 Already mentioned, I'm not an adherent to the 70th week theory, more pre-trib stuff.
#4. true
#5. Partially true with the exception of 7 years, it's 3 1/2 years.
Rev. 19:7-9 is the marriage, equivalent to the rapture at that moment which is in respect another vantage point of the rapture. It's gonna be great, salvation, new bodies, rewards, but heaven is outside our time domain, the clock doesn't tick up their because time itself is a dimension and is part of our physical realm.
#6 already discussed
#7 true
#8 true up until you mess it up with Daniel's 70th week.
#9 true, still none of these above scriptures supports PRE-TRIBULATION THEOLOGY.
It's OK, I know great teachers who teach this, I just don't believe it, I'm Mid-Tribber/Pre-Wrath.
#10 Wrong. The First Resurrection Consists of the entire Church, who have not been evangelized by the 144k. I wasn't, were you? Do you know any Christian on the planet who was. No, they are Jews from the twelve tribes whom only God knows. They evangelize Jews to Christ. And they will go through a testing and will be put through the fire, but protected. 1/3 remnant of Israel will be saved. I don't know how many Jews there are in the world, maybe 12 million so do the math. 2.3 billion Christians are now on this planet and that is about 1/3 of the population as well.
#11 2.3+ billion. The Millennial Kingdom is mysterious and so I'm uncertain about how it's going to work out, but listen, the Church gets new bodies so life expectancy is irrelevant to us. Those who will repopulate that planet will be the 144k male virgins coupled with an equal amount of females as well. Those new borns during this time will be subject to that life expectancy. oops, page is freezing up on me
 
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Quasar92

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"The multitude in heaven which no man could number , of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,, stood before the throne and before the Lamb ..." (Rev. 7:9), is the raptured church "who came out of the Great Tribulation" (vs. 14). So the answer is yes. Being taken out of means you were in it, in the middle of it but not the worst part. And the other verse you gave confirms that the Holy Spirit goes with the entire church.


The Great Multitude in Rev,7-9-17 are tribulation martyrs/saints who will be brought to the Lord DURING the tribulation, in the absence of the DEPARTED Church, who will be CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord in the sky, as recorded in 1 Thess.4:17, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. The Church DOES NOT go through any part of the tribulation.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Response to #1 .
John 14:2-4 > heaven has many mansions and He will come and receive us doesn't confirm Pre-Trib view.
1 Thes. 4:13-18 confirms His coming at a trumpet call and our resurrection, not Pre-Trib view.
2 Thes. 2:1-8 says that "the falling away and the revealing of the son of perdition comes prior to the second coming and then in #2 you say just the opposite, a contradiction.
Did you just copy these scriptures from someone else and pretend to know what you are talking about?
Rev. 3:10 "I will keep you from the hour of trial" which means Judgment/ wrath in the full served in the seven bowls.
Rev. 4:1,2 "Come up here" is an invitation to come through the doors of heaven and see God's throne. This does not support pre-trib.
#2 Already debunked that 2 Thes. 2:1-8 is pre-trib, so next up would be the 7-year tribulation! It's 1260 days/ 3 1/2 years/ 42 months not 7 years. You are getting that from Daniels 70th week which happened right after the 69th - there was no gap.
#3 Already mentioned, I'm not an adherent to the 70th week theory, more pre-trib stuff.
#4. true
#5. Partially true with the exception of 7 years, it's 3 1/2 years.
Rev. 19:7-9 is the marriage, equivalent to the rapture at that moment which is in respect another vantage point of the rapture. It's gonna be great, salvation, new bodies, rewards, but heaven is outside our time domain, the clock doesn't tick up their because time itself is a dimension and is part of our physical realm.
#6 already discussed
#7 true
#8 true up until you mess it up with Daniel's 70th week.
#9 true, still none of these above scriptures supports PRE-TRIBULATION THEOLOGY.
It's OK, I know great teachers who teach this, I just don't believe it, I'm Mid-Tribber/Pre-Wrath.
#10 Wrong. The First Resurrection Consists of the entire Church, who have not been evangelized by the 144k. I wasn't, were you? Do you know any Christian on the planet who was. No, they are Jews from the twelve tribes whom only God knows. They evangelize Jews to Christ. And they will go through a testing and will be put through the fire, but protected. 1/3 remnant of Israel will be saved. I don't know how many Jews there are in the world, maybe 12 million so do the math. 2.3 billion Christians are now on this planet and that is about 1/3 of the population as well.
#11 2.3+ billion. The Millennial Kingdom is mysterious and so I'm uncertain about how it's going to work out, but listen, the Church gets new bodies so life expectancy is irrelevant to us. Those who will repopulate that planet will be the 144k male virgins coupled with an equal amount of females as well. Those new borns during this time will be subject to that life expectancy. oops, page is freezing up on me


The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul can be reviewed in the fur post link that follows:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

You will need a Scripturally based argument to prove any part of it is false, or yours are.


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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The Church DOES NOT go through any part of the tribulation.

The Capital "C" Church as you have used the word above is not found at all in the Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The following verse shows your statement above to be in error. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the Church.


Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 

.
 
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Quasar92

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The Capital "C" Church as you have used the word above is not found at all in the Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The following verse shows your statement above to be in error. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the Church.


Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 

.


FYI, the designation of churches in Rev.2 and 3 is reference to local churches in seven different locations. My use of the word Church you have alluded to pertains to the One Body of Christ, His Church.

Your observation is akin to swallowing an elephant and choking on a nat.


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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FYI, the designation of churches in Rev.2 and 3 is reference to local churches in seven different locations. My use of the word Church you have alluded to pertains to the One Body of Christ, His Church.

Your observation is akin to swallowing an elephant and choking on a nat.


Quasar92

Luk_6:42  Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

.
 
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Luk_6:42  Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

.


Which has no relevance to the subject of this thread.


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Ronald

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The Great Multitude in Rev,7-9-17 are tribulation martyrs/saints who will be brought to the Lord DURING the tribulation, in the absence of the DEPARTED Church, who will be CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord in the sky, as recorded in 1 Thess.4:17, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. The Church DOES NOT go through any part of the tribulation.


Quasar92
So says the Pre-Tribber. If you were a Christian in Sudan or any Muslim country where they are chopping off heads, scattering families and causing million of refugees to flee the country, you might think you were in a great tribulation. Persecution has existed throughout the Church Age, this age is no different. Do not think that we won't be tested, don't not think that these trials may also bring people to the Lord when the trumpets start to blow. I would prefer a Pre-Trib rapture, believe me and hope that you are right and I'm wrong, but I think not. Listen most of this tribulation is centered around Jerusalem. All will come against Jerusalem and who are now against the Jews and Christians? Islam and so this BEAST is now active and will continue until the last trumpet.
 
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Well, I have gone through your list and debunked all verses that relate to any Pre-trib view, what else do you want me to do? I wrote a book about Christianity. Do you see my avatar? That is my book, "Hell ... If I Know". In it, I address several chapters on the nature of Hell and the Great Tribulation Period. The first half of the book discusses fundamental Christianity to equip the reader for the second half which was necessary to answer the questions, "Why Hell and why a Judgment Day is necessary." I used 570 scriptures from seven major versions of the Bible in order to dispel any doubts about translations of words and phrases. So, you can believe what you may and I will do the same. See you in heaven either way it goes, OK?


FYI, you have debunked nothing, Provide the Scriptural facts that debunk any part of the four post link I provided you in #372, or your views are false. FYI, I am a WWII vet who served with the USAAF Air Corp in the Pacific/Asiatic theater for two years. So you waste your time telling me about the persecution suffered now at the hands of the Muslims Jihadists. In addition, I am a qualified teacher of the Bible. And where may I ask did you obtain your qualifications to do so?


Quasar92
 
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