• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured Will there be a second chance for salvation after the Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, May 12, 2017.

  1. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +929
    Christian
    Married
    Jesus teaching as recorded by John the resurrection is at the last day John 6

    Paul teaching 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 resurrection at His coming at the end. 2 Thess. 2 after the man of sin is revealed

    Daniels teaching at the end of days, at the time of trouble Daniel 12

    Jobs teaching at the latter day Job 19

    Peter’s teaching Acts 3:21 Christ will not return until the “times of restitution of all things”

    All of these agree.

    There is no Pre-trib resurrection of the church in scripture!
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  2. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    That is correct. There are only two general resurrections recorded in the Bible, 1,000 years apart, according to Rev.20:4-6. Show me in any post I have made on this site, where I have made any claim to the contrary.

    But Jesus and His apostles sure do teach a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as documented in the four post link that follows:

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


    Quasar92
     
  3. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

    +936
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I don't agree with a post trib rapture, I'm a Mid-Tribber.
    Explain these verses obviously telling us that the multitude is the Church just raptured OUT OF THE TRIBULATION. If we came out of it, then that means we were in it too, no?
    "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb" ... "... These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Rev. 7:9, 14
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,356
    Christian
    Married
    Since the 7th trump is the last trumpet in the Bible, which is found at Revelation 11:15 and "the time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18, there is no 7 year tribulation.


    No 7 Year Tribulation:
    7 year Tribulation?

    .
     
  5. GUANO

    GUANO Well-Known Member

    739
    +318
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Even the scripture 'caught up in the air' is completely arguable from a scholarly standpoint. The word used here is AER, IE: Atmosphere, a word we still use today to describe the pervading tone or mood of a place, situation, or thing (You know, the place that Satan currently rules). We even today still use the term "clouds" or "haze" to describe a state of mind.
     
  6. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    The Scriptures teach the timing of the rapture of the Church is before the man of lawlessness is revealed, who is the same person as the three "he's" in Dan.9:27, who triggers the tribulation, which fuly supports, pre-trib. The Church does not go through ny part of the seven year tribulation. Review the following four post link for a complete documentation of it:

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


    Quasar92
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,356
    Christian
    Married

    The covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with many in Matthew 26:28.



    The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

    Daniel 9:27

    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

    .......................................................................

    Who Confirmed The Covenant?
    James Lloyd
    http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  8. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    A rebuke to the above follows:

    What is it that "he" will do? The antichrist will "make a firm covenant with the many for one week," that is seven years. Non-literal interpreters of Daniel’s seventy-week prophecy usually attempt to make this covenant a reference to Christ’s covenant to save His people, usually known as the covenant of grace. "This, then, is a confirming of a covenant already extant, i.e., the covenant of God’s redemptive grace that Christ confirms (Rom. 15:8)," claims Dr. Gentry. Dr. Gentry and those advocating a similar view, must resort to a non-textual, theological interpretation at this point since there was no seven-year covenant made by Christ with the Jewish people at the time of His first coming. They must back off from the specifics of the text in verse 27 and import in a theological interpretation, thus providing us with a classic example of spiritualization or allegorical interpretation.

    If this is supposed to be a reference to the covenant of grace, then "it may be observed first that this would be a strange way to express such a thought," notes Dr. Wood. Christ’s salvation covenant is not limited to seven years rather it is an eternal covenant. Daniel 9:27 says the covenant is to be made with "the many." This term always refers in some way to Israel throughout the book of Daniel (Daniel 11:33, 39; 12:3). Thus it is a narrow term, used in a specific context. It is not a broad term, synonymous with the language of global salvation. Further, "it is evident that the covenant is subsequent to the cutting off of Messiah and the destruction of the City and the Sanctuary, in the twenty-sixth verse; therefore, it could not have been confirmed at the First Advent," says G. H. Pember. Such an interpretation does not fit this text and it does not account for the seven years that Gabriel says this covenant will be in place. Dr. Wood further explains:

    Since a covenant as described in verse 27 has not yet taken place in reference to the nation of Israel, it must therefore follow that this will be a yet to occur future event. This then, demands a postponement of the seventieth week with a gap of time between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks of years.

    For One Week

    This passage clearly says that the length of the covenant that "he" will make will be for one week or seven years. I suppose that this could mean either that the covenant will be predetermined to last seven years or that it does not specify a length of time when made, but as it turns out, is only in existence for seven years. Many of those who believe that the entire prophecy of the seventy weeks has already been fulfilled around the time of Christ’s first coming teach that the first half of the seventieth week was fulfilled by Christ’s ministry. "We know Christ’s three-and-one-half-year ministry," says Dr. Gentry, "was decidedly focused on the Jews in the first half of the seventieth week (Matt. 10:5b; cf. Matt. 15:24)." G. H. Pember objects to such a view with the following:

    Conclusion

    Once again we have seen in this installment on the seventy weeks that the text of this passage supports a gap of time between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. It is becoming increasingly obvious that the seventieth week is still future to the time in which we now live. "Israel has now been reestablished as a nation (1948), suggesting that the seventieth seven may soon begin." Maranatha!

    By Thomas Ice, PhD

    From: http://www.raptureme.com/featured/70-weeks-9.htmll


    Quasar92
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    +702
    United States
    Word of Faith
    Married
    Ha ha! So the body of Christ will be "caught up" into a "state of mind!"
    How sad. And I thought we were going to be escorted to those mansions Christ went to build for us.
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

    +702
    United States
    Word of Faith
    Married

    Ronald, did you not notice that John used those two words together: "great tribulation" referencing one of the 7 churches early on in the book?

    And did not forget that those two words, "great tribulation" were not enough for Jesus, who added more words to describe those days He was referring to that will come late in the week?

    Many people, when they see these two words together, think they can ONLY mean the terrible days Jesus was speaking of. This is simply not true.

    When John saw the raptured church (the crowd too large to number) around the throne in heaven, before he even started the "trib" or 70th week in his narrative, he did include that they came out of "great tribulation." But his meaning was certainly NOT that they were in the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, for John has not yet even started the week, much less arrived at the days of the Beast's 42 months of authority. His only meaning is, at the time of the rapture (which he shows us will be pretrib) there will be great tribulation on earth. In fact, it is great tribulation today in many places in the world. Saints are being martyred in great numbers. For them "tribulation" could not be any greater, for they could not be killed twice.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,356
    Christian
    Married
    From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores, and before the crooked lawyer from Kansas had his Scofield Reference Bible published with the help of Zionist Samuel Untermeyer.

    Daniel 9:27

    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

    .....................................................................................................
    Who Confirmed The Covenant?
    James Lloyd
    http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

    .
     
  12. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    The first time you posted the above, it was responded to and refuted in post #428. Nothing has happened since then to change any of it.

    There were seven English translations of the Bible when the Pilgrims came to America. What is the source for your claim the Geneva Bible is specifically the one they came with?


    Quasar92
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,356
    Christian
    Married

     
  14. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

    +936
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I never said there was! I've been telling people it's gonna be a 3 1/2 year trib for a decade.
     
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

    +936
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Daniel 9:27 is history, it happened already. The Seventy Weeks of Daniel was an accurate prophetic message from Gabriel signaling Christ's first coming - that's it. Christ was sacrificed in the middle of the 70th week. It have to be a full week. It stands to reason that Gabriel's message to Daniel would not be true unless it was complete and accurate. If 70th week was intended to be suspended in time for thousands of years, then God would not have given the prophecy to begin with. NO, the prophecy was accurate and pertained only to Christ's First Coming. This is a stumbling block for the Pre-Tribbers ... don't worry, you'll soon get over it.
    Dan. 9:26 states that "after" the 7 + 62 = 69 weeks, The Annointed One will be cut off. Isn't it plainly stated that He was cut off after the 69 weeks? If after, it must have been during the 70th week.
    Then the prophecy jumps to a later date that describes the fall of Jerusalem (not within the 70 weeks, just an aftermath). Then "... war will continue till the end ... desolations ..."

    Verse 27 states: He will confirm a covenant for one week - Christ did and was cut off in the middle of 70th week.
    "in the middle of the last week he will put an end to sacrifice" - Christ did end Temple sacrifices with His once and for all sacrifice
    " and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one." YLT
    translation: Christ made the "abominations" desolate AND continued until our consummation (which is our salvation) AND at that time the "desolate one" which plainly was and is Israel will be poured on. What does that mean? Since Christ, the Jews have been blinded and according to Romans 11, during the end times (and our consummation as well), God will pour out His Holy Spirit on a remnant 1/3 of the Jews, lift the veil and they will see.
    "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." KJV
    Here we see the wing as an overspreading of abominations and then it gets more specific, "he shall make it desolate". It's not one abomination of desolation event in the end times this verse is referring to.
    Christ died and the Temple veil was split and sacrifice ended (that actually meant anything). The Temple became obsolete and we became the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Jews were blinded, and in a sense empty (desolate) because they no longer had access to God unless they came to Him by was of Christ. I would call that a desolate life. It's spiritual desolation the verse is referring to, not physical desolation.
    And abominations have always been occurring and judged, but the abominations committed by the Pharisees to lead up to the arrest, torture and crucifixion of Christ was abhorring for which they were punished and made desolate.
     
  16. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    Your views are refuted by the Scriptures. For example. Jesus Olivet discourse in Mt.24:4-31 is all prophecy, including His second coming, in verse 30. In verse 15, He made reference to the Holy Place, which petains to the third temple Israel has not yet built. All of Rev.6 through 19 is prophecy, as 1:3 so states, that has not taken place, referring to the Great Tribulation.

    The views you propose are the same as that which Preterists teach.


    Quasar92
     
  17. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

    +936
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Rev. 2:22 says Jesus will cause "great tribulation' to those who commit adultery with Jezebel in the church of Thyatira. And? ... As if great tribulation has not come upon anyone yet in this world. How about being tortured, torn apart by animals or burning to death or having your head chopped off ... would that be consider great tribulation? Individuals have suffered judgment throughout history; why you bring this up is irrelevant to The Great Tribulation that will effect ALL who live on the planet. Remember, even the 5th Trumpet released demon locusts who torture those on earth who have the mark of the beast only. This means those who have God's mark will be passed over like the angel of death in Moses day passed over those Jews with the blood of the lamb over their doorways. This also suggests during the 5th Trumpet, we are still here, unless the trumpets are blown quickly in succession during the Feast of Trumpets and then the events follow and accumulate over time -- I'm OK with that.
    Read my previous post, I do not adhere to a 70th week. Christians have gone through persecution since Christ and all through the Church Age. The tribulation that occurred in 67 A.D - 70 A.D in Jerusalem or Rome did not encompass the entire world, it was small compared to what will come.
    I do not agree with your interpretation pertaining to "the multitude who came out of the Great Tribulation" or any of your Pre-Trib views -- but you are entitled to believe what you want.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +6,356
    Christian
    Married

    Maybe you missed the part about the temple being destroyed at the beginning of the chapter.

    The disciples clearly asked when the temple would be destroyed.

    Mat 24:1  Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 
    Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." 


    Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (The section highlighted in Blue is the first question. The other color is the second question.)


    Christ answered both the first question and the second question in the Olivet Discourse.

    .
     
  19. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

    +936
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    No third physical Temple is needed, that's another Pre-Trib misunderstanding. The Temple in Heaven opens up and receives those who are resurrected. Christ made the physical Temple obsolete when He died. We became the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
    Why God require a Third Temple with animal sacrifices which he would consider empty and an abomination since He is the Sacrificial Lamb. He will open up the eyes of the Jews but a Temple will not be necessary for that, nor will sacrifices be. It is a futile idea and not part of God's plan for them.
    Revelation contains things visions of the past, present and future. In chapter 6, Jesus opens the seals when He arrives in Heaven after His ascension. He doesn't wait 2000 years to open it, otherwise none of us would know what was in it. It was a written scroll the REPRESENTS things that will take place in the future. John was given visions of those events. The scroll is like a play written long ago but the human actors weren't born yet. When the stage is set (and it is being set), then the play will begin when the trumpets blow.
     
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,932
    Christian
    Single

    Your views are refuted by the Scriptures. For starters, see the following, pertqaining to the two temples yet to be built in Jerusalem:

    he tribulation temple:
    Matthew 24:15 - When you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…
    2 Thessalonians 2:4 - "...so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God"
    Revelation 11:1 - "...Go and measure the temple of God and the alter..."

    The Millennial temple:

    Ezekiel 43:7 - "...this is the place of my throne...This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."

    Ezekiel 43:27 - …your priests will your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar, and I will accept you, declares the Lord.

    Zechariah 6:12 - Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and he will…build the temple of the Lord.
    At the present time there is no temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem,
    the location of both the first and second Jewish Temples. Instead, two
    Muslim shrines, The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, stand on
    the Temple Mount. Meantime, the Jewish people to consider the Temple
    Mount to be the most sacred place for Jews in all the world. No wonder
    the Temple Mount is a political powder keg and must be part of any
    formula for peace in the Middle East!

    According to the Bible, a temple will once again stand on the Temple
    Mount. How and when the Temple Mount will be available for a future
    temple remains to be seen. Biblical prophecy “buffs” have proposed all
    kinds of potential scenarios for how all of this could take
    place—everything from earthquakes to explosives to the collapse of the
    Temple Mount platform!

    Some well-meaning Christians have felt that the biblical predictions of a
    future Temple should be spiritualized, saying that these prophecies
    refer to the Church or to the individual Christian. Indeed, 1
    Corinthians 3:16 makes it quite clear that the Church, as the body of
    Christ, is the spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit. And in 1 Corinthians
    6:19 we are taught that the physical body of every individual believer
    is to be honored and kept clean, because it is the temple of the Holy
    Spirit. But these wonderful New Testament truths do not alter the
    biblical predictions of a literal future Temple in Jerusalem.

    The question of a future Temple gets more complicated when we realize
    that the Bible teaches that two temples are yet to stand on the Temple
    Mount in the future. First will come a Tribulation Temple, followed by a
    Millennium Temple which will be built when the Lord returns and sets up
    His kingdom on this earth. Let's look at the Scriptures dealing with
    these two future temples.


    Here: Israel's Third and Fourth Temples

    Here: Millennial Temple Model of Ezekiel's vision, Third 3rd temples, 40-48 Jesus Israeli Land Holy Portion Jewish Messiah Yahshua [No tribulation temple shown]


    Quasar92
     
Loading...