Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

[rick357]

Since this is unorthodox, maybe I have some latitude to say this.

I do think the Law is nothing compared to Christ, and is a mere extension of what it means to be Him. I understand we are saved by grace, not by how well we follow the Law.

But, if we don't strive for perfection like Christ - essentially arguing obedience to some Standard is necessary - then aren't we just "good people" who happen to believe in Christ? What separates us from an open minded person who believes in Christ, or even that He rose from the dead, but do not follow His Father's commandments - at least try to all the way (not picking)?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I really want to know how the philosophy of rejecting "Moses' law" for a better law came to mean ignoring, or leaving the OT laws to the Hebrews. I thought followers of Christ were [spiritual] Abrahamic seed, and therefore are a part of the extrapolation of both covenants over us spiritually. Christ tells us we have to be perfect, yet we understand this is a paradox that is vindicated through both obedience and faith in Him? Or, at the "greatest commandments" all we follow, and let everything else fall into place?

Please reread my post...the law is not an extension of Christ it is a description ...a DNA blueprint. One can not make the law small with out making Jesus less.
Yet if we will be obediant...if we will reach any standered of perfection; the self generated life can not get us there...it is necessary that I trust him to live through me.
Forit is no longer I but Christ in me...the life that I now live..I live by the power of the Son of God...for the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead shall quicken(make to live) your mortal bodies.
We reach for the perfection of him living through us...not us imitating his life. He is the only one obediant..the only one perfect..the only one righteous...the only one Holy...and so we trust in his life to live through in and for us.
For from faith to faith is HIS righteousness revealed in us....be ye holy AS I AM holy

 

[CryOfALion]

Please reread my post...the law is not an extension of Christ it is a description ...a DNA blueprint. One can not make the law small with out making Jesus less.
Yet if we will be obediant...if we will reach any standered of perfection; the self generated life can not get us there...it is necessary that I trust him to live through me.
Forit is no longer I but Christ in me...the life that I now live..I live by the power of the Son of God...for the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead shall quicken(make to live) your mortal bodies.
We reach for the perfection of him living through us...not us imitating his life. He is the only one obediant..the only one perfect..the only one righteous...the only one Holy...and so we trust in his life to live through in and for us.
For from faith to faith is HIS righteousness revealed in us....be ye holy AS I AM holy

Ok, let's take it further: the Law Is Christ. Specifically, the entire Word of God is Christ.

So, why would follow parts of Him and not all of Him? He is the Word of God incarnate - so whatever God said Christ Is whether God spoke to Moses or me.

I am not saying a born again believer has to be 100% squeaky clean. But, there is such a thing as sanctification (I thought,) where one actually does reach an asymptomatic perfection/sainthood. That can't happen if no law is in order. God said His better/New Covenant said the Law would be put on our hearts so that 1) our neighbors won't have to ask us if we know the Truth/God, and 2) so that we would delight in following His commandments. So, we have Jeremiah saying the law is contrary to being voided. We have Christ championing obedience, perfection and the commandments of God - and exclaiming not one iota of the commandments will pass until ALL is fulfilled. We have Peter telling God he never ate an unclean thing - adhering to OT laws, we have Paul telling us "God forbid" we should dismiss God's laws/not follow them just because we can't do it 100% of the time...

Where is the evidence for me, for example, disregarding the commandment of the Sabbath, or commandment of honoring my parents? Where does God or Christ say, "Look, don't worry about what I said for the 3500 years of Hebrew history - and the judgments I put on them because they did not follow my commandments, focus on love and forgiveness"? I really want to know where God or Christ said this - that we don't have to follow their older laws because of Christ, or because we may not be genetic Hebrews.

If you find this will turn into an argument, then fine let's forget it. But, these issues are serious; it isn't like the age of the earth where I can (marginally) consider not that important. This is about obedience and the commandments of God Christ and the disciples talk about so much. I need to hear one of them (God or Christ) say what the common doctrine of today is - whether we trash the first half of canon, or take it all.


By the way, my post wasn't toward you (don't know what post you wanted me to read.) It was semi blind.

 

[rick357]

Stephen you know someone once asked our Lord the greatest commandment...with his death and resurection and exaltation whereby the Holy Spirit has come to make us one with The Father and our Lord...if the same question was asked...how would our Lord sum up the fullfilled law of the Spirit of life in Christ....it would sound like this

All that was recieved from Adam must be entrusted to me...to be crucified in my crucifiction...that Holy Spirit may be the only life found in you...that I and my Father may live our shared life in you that our life is made your life...
For in this faith is every command made alive in us.

I will try to be plain...this is the way in wich Jesus fulfilled the law.
1) the law(even those things Jesus commanded) is not a list of things to do but a mirror of who we should be.
2) the life we recieved as from Adam was self generated cut off from God a self life...God calls this death because it is seperated from him
3) this self life can not generate the power to be the way the law teaches us to be...Paul tells us that trying to do the law only shows us the sin and death that is in us
4) but when we trust in what Jesus has done for us our old self is crucified in him
5) not only this but Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit wich becomes the source of our life...no longer a self life...but made one with the Father and his Son by the Spirit...it is their life living in us shared with us to make us one.

So we trust him to will and to do in us...if we see our life is not in line with what he has told us his life is...then we know we have trusted in our old man...so we confess our sin(lack of trust in him alone) and trust him to live through us.
In the short form...we lose our self life and by faith in him his life lives through us making us one with him. we become the living word instead of trying to perform what is written.

col these are the post...and my point is to fulfill all scripture it is by him living through us

 

[CryOfALion]

col these are the post...and my point is to fulfill all scripture it is by him living through us

As is mine. I am, and have been asking honestly about where what I brought up was actually said by God or [the Word of God.]

But, if you think this will be a five page exchange between us then we can agree to disagree because I have been there several times on here. Not trying to argue.

 

[rick357]

As is mine. I am, and have been asking honestly about where what I brought up was actually said by God or [the Word of God.]

But, if you think this will be a five page exchange between us then we can agree to disagree because I have been there several times on here. Not trying to argue.

I dont wish to argue yet how many pages our discusion goes for is not a concern....maybe thats worded wrong
My point is we can edify one anouther in the faith for years if the Lord allows....as to ignoring all God has commanded in order to love.
Love is a motive more than an act...by desiring the Lord to make us lovers of our brothers and all men...it drives us to what is said in the law.
The law must be seen with circumsized eyes and heart...the scripture Moses gave us the law but grace and truth came by Jesus is used by many to discount the law....but this is not a correct perspective...the gift of Gods Spirit living in us from Jesus shows us the truth in the law and empowers us to become that truth not simply to perform it.

 

[CryOfALion]

Honestly, I could discuss for pages, but I would rather not be a stumbling block. I was (past tense) asking for serious "closure," but I would rather not anger or argue - even if it is solely me in the feels.

It is unfortunate that [my] cynicism and skepticism of this forum prevents possible edification, but I would rather healthy edification from someone else over me saying offenses.

 

[rick357]

Honestly, I could discuss for pages, but I would rather not be a stumbling block. I was (past tense) asking for serious "closure," but I would rather not anger or argue - even if it is solely me in the feels.

It is unfortunate that [my] cynicism and skepticism of this forum prevents possible edification, but I would rather healthy edification from someone else over me saying offenses.

I can promise I will not be offended...simply pick a place in scripture or a general idea and we will speak about it as brothers

 

[Norah63]

Christ in us, that DNA blueprint for sure.
It does the work of sanctification as we walk out our life in the faith once delivered to the saints.
Yes we all long to SEE more of it in each other, that's a weakness we are all overcoming more and more as that precious DNA carries us along toward eternity.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I find it rather easy to love Jesus and follow his commands. For one, it is Jesus' commands:


go the extra mile (walk another mile).
give to those who ask (like I didn't do to the needy person at Food Lion parking lot last week, and was deeply sad that I failed Jesus in this).
give a full measure.
do not let your left hand know what your right is giving (as in alms to God).
Pray quietly in the intermost closet your prayers to God.
Let your yes be yes and no be no, do not swear...
Jesus was telling us to be moral, yet loving and kind to all, especially to our enemies as well.
To not live for riches.
To not live by the sword.
To love one another as I have loved you.
To be known by your love for one another.
do not resist evil.
to share your hope to those who ask about it.
(to the question of which of the Jewish commandments were necessary for salvation, Jesus gave us five (or six) of the Ten Commandments)
be prepared for persecutions and endure them till the end, to not deny the Faith.
do unto others as you would have them do unto you (love them).
Love the Lord you God with all of your mind, heart and soul.
follow the straight and narrow road that leads to life (follow Jesus Christ).
Do not worry about food and clothing, for God loves you and will supply your needs, as he does to the sparrows or lilies of the valley.
God desires mercy and not sacrifice.
Forgive others of there trespasses against you.
Love you enemies...do good to those who despise you...
seek a lower place, to be humble and accepting to God, not the higher places of honor.
Forgive 7 times 70 times (70 times 70, or always forgive, I would!) your brother (or neighbor whoever they are).
Ask of your Father in Heaven and he will give to you (being that it is in the will of God what you ask for and that you ask out of your love for God (and others))
Heal the sick and preach the Good News.
visit the sick brethren (neighbor) and those in prison, especially the least ones.
Baptize new believing followers of Christ in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit....
and many similar ones.

How do I call this fulfilling what Jesus asks of us? I don't go through Trinity. Jesus has the Gospel and commands, that is all that I use. Throw Trinity into the mix and you have what I call a tare.

The primitive churches didn't have the tares of today. Trinity basically came about later, not really in the earliest faith. So, if Jesus said something for you to follow, you would know what he was talking about and could try to accomplish this.

The primitive faith worked because the tares were planted after God's initial good seeds were. Paul, Peter and others saw things growing up within the church and warned us of what was coming, sure enough, it happened just as they had told.

You can obey Jesus' commands as he spoke them and still not have to argue or fight your brother, because he would also be trying to follow the same ones. Since the tares have come into play, the mix is bad. Now, to love one another is to know how to love Jesus first. You can. You just need primitive faith, find out what it was and listen to God through Christ and his disciples. The primitive faith probably had many house churches. Not a bad idea for today, as well. Faith makes the church, not the church makes the faith (where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there also).

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I believe that things were really that simple, except there came along those Gentiles and demanding Law keeping Jews. Still faith was simple enough to help start the church.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

My brother's faith, I am not responsible for, but I can love him and uplift him, God is the one who accepted him and will save him.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

You know, we are meant to help save those outside of our faith, God can save us within. We have a job and should respect each other and our relationships with our Father. Those outside are the ones that have needs that can't be met by the world. We can help guide them to the Father through Jesus. Shouldn't we say, "Let us get busy with the Lord's work, he wants us to follow him."

 

[rick357]

You know, we are meant to help save those outside of our faith, God can save us within. We have a job and should respect each other and our relationships with our Father. Those outside are the ones that have needs that can't be met by the world. We can help guide them to the Father through Jesus. Shouldn't we say, "Let us get busy with the Lord's work, he wants us to follow him."

We are told in the scripture to streangthen and encourage the brethern in the faith...also if we see our brother in sin to restore them to the faith....and yes we should be trusting him to do his work through us as we rest in him

 

[Stephen Kendall]

We are told in the scripture to streangthen and encourage the brethern in the faith...also if we see our brother in sin to restore them to the faith....and yes we should be trusting him to do his work through us as we rest in him

What Jesus saw as sin were moral sins: greed, pride, lust, theft, lying, murder, perversions, idolatry, adultery, coveting, and others, but the type of relationship that one has with their master, God' isn't a sin. Our relationships are not the same. Some are very weak and have a complex religious toned faith with the Father. Some are strong and have a very free and substantive faith with Him. Faith with uniqueness and variety is the way that God has relationships. Our relationships are not religion, for God has accepted us through Christ's blood and given us each his Holy Spirit, Christ is in us and God is in Christ, we are not believing in God, for we know him through Jesus and are willing to give our all to him. Religion is a belief and system of such of God. We each have a relationship and knowledge of God through his son Jesus, and they are alive within us. Why are we judging relationships? Paul said that of the weak faith ones, to love and respect them, edify and lift them up. We can see them as weak, but we know who they belong to. Yes, if they sin, for what sin really is, then we bring them back as best as we can. Moral sins are true sins, but unique relationships and weaker faiths are not sins, God can save them and will. Something has confused our faith, yet it will bear fruit anyway. Let us bear the treasured fruit of loving our our neighbors, especially to those who have accepted Jesus.

 

[rick357]

What Jesus saw as sin were moral sins: greed, pride, lust, theft, lying, murder, perversions, idolatry, adultery, coveting, and others, but the type of relationship that one has with their master, God' isn't a sin. Our relationships are not the same. Some are very weak and have a complex religious toned faith with the Father. Some are strong and have a very free and substantive faith with Him. Faith with uniqueness and variety is the way that God has relationships. Our relationships are not religion, for God has accepted us through Christ's blood and given us each his Holy Spirit, Christ is in us and God is in Christ, we are not believing in God, for we know him through Jesus and are willing to give our all to him. Religion is a belief and system of such of God. We each have a relationship and knowledge of God through his son Jesus, and they are alive within us. Why are we judging relationships? Paul said that of the weak faith ones, to love and respect them, edify and lift them up. We can see them as weak, but we know who they belong to. Yes, if they sin, for what sin really is, then we bring them back as best as we can. Moral sins are true sins, but unique relationships and weaker faiths are not sins, God can save them and will. Something has confused our faith, yet it will bear fruit anyway. Let us bear the treasured fruit of loving our our neighbors, especially to those who have accepted Jesus.

Yes weak faith by Pauls definition is when one does something for the glory of God that one with stronger faith may see in a greater fullness

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Yes weak faith by Pauls definition is when one does something for the glory of God that one with stronger faith may see in a greater fullness

Interesting, but I am not sure exactly what you are saying.

I suppose that the stronger faith person can see the weaker faith person's in a better light than another different faith person would (who perhaps also is weaker). Someone with great faith could actually follow Jesus' command of loving and edifying the ones below him, yet it is he who must be the lowly servant and not them. I am thinking from this, that it is the invisible yet strong faith servants in and out of church who are above the one's who think their faith is greater.

I would also think that those who show respect to God's different servants would have greater faith than those who argue and raise themselves above others.

Did people and the church think that they were doing so well, yet dividing ever into oblivion (41,000 denominations and growing)? The faith that we have is insufficient for our maturity. Holiness is a apart of faith, yet the ability to serve humbly, lift up others and actually be able to follow Jesus' known way that our faith is recognizable, "you will be known by your love for one another." If our faith is visible to Jesus by our love for one another, He should be able to see faith on earth.

We should be able to gauge our faith by whether we can actually lift up and love our brethren within all Christian faiths, JW to Seventh Day Adventist to Orthodox to Unorthodox, and save some room for loving our neighbors whether good or bad. The Gospel of Jesus starts with Jesus, and getting him right first. In our convictions to follow him and believe in him is our faith's foundation, and not things other than his authority. Faith's authority is the Holy Spirit within us. We need to stay with Christ.

If we are busy with things outside of Jesus' spoken Gospel to us whether given by angels or spiritual leaders, who servant are we becoming? Don't we belong to Jesus first and always? Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the sufficiencies of our faith.

 

[rick357]

*[[Rom 14:4-8]] KJV*
%v 4% Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
%v 5% One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
%v 6% He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
%v 7% For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
%v 8% For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

The sabbath is about mans rest...one man sees he should rest on the seventh day to honor God
Anouther man sees that every day we should rest seated in Christ in heavenly places while he by his Spirit does the works of God through us....if the second tells the first that he should do differant...in his heart the weak will believe that by his working he is acting against what he has seen from God putting him in disobediance in his heart...
To be weak in faith is not less faith its just not a full picture which God will bring to one...we encourage our brothers faith not tear it down as less...God gives the increase.for we both must be fully convinced we do what we do unto the Lord.

 

[CryOfALion]

I can promise I will not be offended...simply pick a place in scripture or a general idea and we will speak about it as brothers

Let's start with Matthew 5:28, and then John 1:1.

With that, why do we/are we not supposed to follow the entirety of God's commandments when The Word of God expects it of us. This doesn't give salvation, but obedience of the commandments of God is a faith based action like baptism.

Why am I legalistic because I choose/want to follow all of His law the best I can?

 

[rick357]

Let's start with Matthew 5:28, and then John 1:1.

With that, why do we/are we not supposed to follow the entirety of God's commandments when The Word of God expects it of us. This doesn't give salvation, but obedience of the commandments of God is a faith based action like baptism.

Why am I legalistic because I choose/want to follow all of His law the best I can?

Im going backwards with my answers...
1) seeking to follow the whole word of God is not legalistic in any way...thinking one will be declared innocent (justified)by the doing of those things is legalistic...as I have said before the law is a promise of who God is making me into not a list of actions to perform...but will I do away with his promise to seek after my own way...God forbid
For example God says you shall not bear false witness...the flesh says this is something to do to be right with God...the Spirit says as Gods workmanship he is making me to be someone who would never bear false witness against anouther.with the first belief I am the power source for change...with the second he is the source

2) there is no question of if we must be obediant only the how is a point of discussion...do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles...new wine must be in a new wine skin...can a corrupt tree bring fourth good fruit...till coruption puts on incorruption...when Adam was found to have iniquity he sinned and died...he was a rebel, a transgresser, a self cut off from being one,cursed...and he brought forth children in his image....could Adam as a self, having no oneness with ELOHIM, a thornbush if you will make himself to become a fruit tree...is he not the Father of us all after the flesh...so can we be a fruit tree of ourself...no
But in Yeshua who was obediant who lived as one not as a self let his self be killed that by faith our self could be put to death...that the life of being one from Holy Spirit living in us can also be given to us...we dont improve our life we die and are given a shared life of being one with him.so by his living in and through us we become obediant...not by will or by might but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord.

3)you are right every single thing he has told us we must be...we must be....this is only possible as he is our life not in a poetic sense but in a very real way.

4)John 1:1 yes everthing given to Moses ,the prophets, found in the wisdom books,manifested in his flesh, and testified by his apostles is him and as such we can remove none of it...but if we kiss his hand...if we say he is Lord we must do this in Spirit and in truth.we can live of him or decieve ourself that we live of ourself but we cant do both...we can not serve two masters...we must be one as he is one.we can not follow him...we can not learn him...we must become the living word.

5)matthew 5:28 our righteousness must excede those who think we must keep the law...no adultry is not righteous enough our heart must not desire to look apon a woman....with men alone this is impossible but with God alone all things are possible

 

[CryOfALion]

Im going backwards with my answers...
1) seeking to follow the whole word of God is not legalistic in any way...thinking one will be declared innocent (justified)by the doing of those things is legalistic...

There is a strong misinderstanding in the church which implies that people who follow all of God's laws believe that obedience will get them salvstion. That is no5 whst we think. We are already dead, because we sinned - and universal Law sentences us to deaty. So, for me obedience does nothing except a measure of faith. We understand Christ saves, but we still have to follow His law to the best of our abilities.

as I have said before the law is a promise of who God is making me into not a list of actions to perform...but will I do away with his promise to seek after my own way...God forbid
For example God says you shall not bear false witness...the flesh says this is something to do to be right with God...the Spirit says as Gods workmanship he is making me to be someone who would never bear false witness against anouther.with the first belief I am the power source for change...with the second he is the source

hmm...

2) there is no question of if we must be obediant only the how is a point of discussion...do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles...new wine must be in a new wine skin...can a corrupt tree bring fourth good fruit...till coruption puts on incorruption...when Adam was found to have iniquity he sinned and died...he was a rebel, a transgresser, a self cut off from being one,cursed...and he brought forth children in his image....could Adam as a self, having no oneness with ELOHIM, a thornbush if you will make himself to become a fruit tree...is he not the Father of us all after the flesh...so can we be a fruit tree of ourself...no
But in Yeshua who was obediant who lived as one not as a self let his self be killed that by faith our self could be put to death...that the life of being one from Holy Spirit living in us can also be given to us...we dont improve our life we die and are given a shared life of being one with him.so by his living in and through us we become obediant...not by will or by might but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord.

3)you are right every single thing he has told us we must be...we must be....this is only possible as he is our life not in a poetic sense but in a very real way.

4)John 1:1 yes everthing given to Moses ,the prophets, found in the wisdom books,manifested in his flesh, and testified by his apostles is him and as such we can remove none of it...but if we kiss his hand...if we say he is Lord we must do this in Spirit and in truth.we can live of him or decieve ourself that we live of ourself but we cant do both...we can not serve two masters...we must be one as he is one.we can not follow him...we can not learn him...we must become the living word.

5)matthew 5:28 our righteousness must excede those who think we must keep the law...no adultry is not righteous enough our heart must not desire to look apon a woman....with men alone this is impossible but with God alone all things are possible

I am kind of confused on what you are saying, but if you are saying Christ made it "harder" for us I believe that. As in, the mere though of lust is sin already, as opposed to the act. If you disobey God's commandments in your heart, the action naturally comes later.

And, I still don't see where Christ/God said to stop following any laws of God.