Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

[rick357]

There is a strong misinderstanding in the church which implies that people who follow all of God's laws believe that obedience will get them salvstion. That is no5 whst we think. We are already dead, because we sinned - and universal Law sentences us to deaty. So, for me obedience does nothing except a measure of faith. We understand Christ saves, but we still have to follow His law to the best of our abilities.

hmm...

I am kind of confused on what you are saying, but if you are saying Christ made it "harder" for us I believe that. As in, the mere though of lust is sin already, as opposed to the act. If you disobey God's commandments in your heart, the action naturally comes later.

And, I still don't see where Christ/God said to stop following any laws of God.

It is no longer I that live but Messiah in me...we are his workmanship....it is Messiah to will and to do in me...from faith to faith is the righteousness of Messiah revealed in me.

I trust him to live in and through me...has he ever broken any of the Law...should he start because he is living through me. If I see failure in me then I know I am not fully trusting him...somewhere I am leaning on self...so I trust his words are true that he gives his Spirit and life to those that believe on him...that he is author and finisher of my faith and that by his work in me his righteousness is revealed in me....
We are not putting away the Law by trusting him...rather we are establishing obediance to the law by trusting him to live through us.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Is it necessary for us to have universal salvation, in that a soul is never threaten with eternal separation from God versus the other two types of God's judgments (eternal torment and eternal annihilation)? What I am saying is: did the primitive faith of the chosen disciples of Christ have a faith with the threat of eternal separation or did it just have the Wrath of God as given individually in proper punishment amounts to the disobedient ones (as a period of punishment, eon)?

The primitive faith was accepted by Jesus, and, in fact, given to us by him. This faith should be rediscovered so that he would recognize us as his.

There is a lot of conflict, confusion, barriers and illogical imbalance of scriptures with a soul being permanently separated from God. Yet, how do we make it back to universal salvation, if this is truly primitive faith, when even the Bible seems written with these irreversible conclusions for the lost souls? It seems like a no-win challenge. However, the Bible plainly says many times using the universal language of all knees will bow and all will be saved. What has happened with the Bible? Surely the Torah (Old Testament) is perfectly preserved and surely the main part of the New Testament of the Gospel (Jesus' commands and teachings) is as well (excluding parts that have been found to be imperfect or tampered with). Could we blame it on Pagan (and tare) influences during the period of the development of the New Testament? Yes, we surely can, if fact, these influences could also change the Torah's translation into our language. How was that allowed by God? He preserved what the world didn't want (the commands and teachings of Christ). The tares planted by Satan around the world and even within God's churches were allowed to grow by the command of God. These tares could choke the word, but the word was God's and would produce a harvest anyway. To remove them would only damage many saved souls. So we have a different faith, than the primitive faith without the tares around. Can we see the tares and return to the real faith that Jesus gave us?

Does anyone have an idea how we can discover the primitive faith of Jesus' chosen disciples (the real leaders of the church)? The enemy's tares have grown with the church for 2,000 years. We can't peel back the layers of their influences, can we? Isn't faith all about accepting what isn't proven, just that we believe in Him, or is faith built upon us being afraid of Him? Fear of God is proper, but the angels tell those who are to not be afraid. It is not counterproductive to have fear, yet to not be afraid? When you mix those two together, do you not have love? If we love God, we have true fear of him, yet we are not afraid as we are told to be. Back to my question, can we see the tares or, better still, can we see the primitive faith? If we love God, though we are with fear of Him, our love gives us courage. Can this courage give us our original faith? I believe that there are many tares around us, yet there is but one real Gospel and real faith, let us take the courage together to find it. Could obeying the teachings and commands of Christ help us as a group to find our faith as one?

 

[CryOfALion]

It is no longer I that live but Messiah in me...we are his workmanship....it is Messiah to will and to do in me...from faith to faith is the righteousness of Messiah revealed in me.

I trust him to live in and through me...has he ever broken any of the Law...should he start because he is living through me. If I see failure in me then I know I am not fully trusting him...somewhere I am leaning on self...so I trust his words are true that he gives his Spirit and life to those that believe on him...that he is author and finisher of my faith and that by his work in me his righteousness is revealed in me....
We are not putting away the Law by trusting him...rather we are establishing obediance to the law by trusting him to live through us.

So, do you believe we should follow God's law explicitly? (In other words, do you think following God means following a nebulous arc of grace, rather than directly following His laws?) And, please show where Christ or God said we can throw away His laws I favor of the "grace of the new covenant." Why did Christ say be perfect as God? Where did God dismiss His laws "given to Moses," and where did He say only Hebrews have to follow His law?

 

[rick357]

So, do you believe we should follow God's law explicitly? (In other words, do you think following God means following a nebulous arc of grace, rather than directly following His laws?) And, please show where Christ or God said we can throw away His laws I favor of the "grace of the new covenant." Why did Christ say be perfect as God? Where did God dismiss His laws "given to Moses," and where did He say only Hebrews have to follow His law?

I can hardly speak for all but I can speak to my understanding....one grace has a certain meaning which does not mean forgiveness words do have definition and specific meaning...I believe the confusion is in with each new word the previous words become inclusive but let me explain what I am speaking of
1)Elohim's relationship with us when in unbelief is one of long suffering and forbearance
2)when Adonai brings us to faith in Messiah we first recieve mercy...a payment
3)by this mercy YHWH gives justification...a declaration of innocence(like when he said he saw no sin in Israel)
4) because we are clean our Father by Holy Spirit comes to abide in us...making us one with him...this is the promise of Abraham..."I am thy shield and thy exceedingly great reward"...this is also the gift which is called grace
5)as we trust in the life of the Father and our Elder Brother to live in and through us...the bonds and strongholds of the old self are broken and spoiled this is called saved...it takes us from transgression to obediance.
6)as the life of our Father, his living Word, and his quickening Holy Spirit make a new heart and mind in us the righteousness of Messiah is revealed in us...so his right ways are made living in our heart which affects how we act...

His law does not change...if we try to obey it by the nature of self we recieved from Adam it shows us the sin and death found in that self.
If we trust the new life of the Spirit to make us into the living law it shows us the life in Messiah whom we are in and who is in us

In the flesh the law can only be kept by fighting our nature...and like holding ones breath it can be practiced but eventualy nature takes over and you will breath

It should be noted under grace Yeshua has raised the bar...he has moved the law from expression in the flesh to motive in the heart...so lust is adultry...hate is murder...self is idolatry...unbelief breaks his rest...to not be as Yeshua is; is to bear a false witness

"be ye Holy as I am Holy"...Moses law is YHWH's law but the veil of the flesh hides its glory...when the flesh is removed there is no self to do its duty or part...only the Spirit of Elohim making us to be one.

 

[Norah63]

OUR Most CRITICAL NEEDby A.W. Tozer
Surely we need a baptism of clear seeing if we are to escape thefate of Israel (and of every other religious body in history that forsookGod). If not the greatest need, then surely one of the greatest is forthe appearance of Christian leaders with prophetic vision. We desperately need seers who can see through the mist. Unless theycome soon, it will be too late for this generation. And if they docome, we will no doubt crucify a few of them in the name of ourworldly orthodoxy. But the cross is always the harbinger of the resurrection.

 

[rick357]

OUR Most CRITICAL NEEDby A.W. Tozer
Surely we need a baptism of clear seeing if we are to escape thefate of Israel (and of every other religious body in history that forsookGod). If not the greatest need, then surely one of the greatest is forthe appearance of Christian leaders with prophetic vision. We desperately need seers who can see through the mist. Unless theycome soon, it will be too late for this generation. And if they docome, we will no doubt crucify a few of them in the name of ourworldly orthodoxy. But the cross is always the harbinger of the resurrection.

*[[Luk 16:31]] KJV* And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

In his parable Jesus is rebuking the leaders of Judah for having made all God had given them a source of pride instead of compassion.
In the doing of that they had become blind to the message of the very scriptures which they boasted their knowledge and authority in...
if they could see the scriptures they would have known Jesus for the scriptures testify of him.They said all the right words but with all the wrong understanding...this is why Jesus said it is near you even in your mouth. Even when he rose from the dead they remained blind.
It is not the prophetic our leaders need to see but the truth of the very scriptures they believe themselves masters of.
They say you must not act from self...then try to teach you how to control yourself.
They say you must have the fruit of the Spirit...then try to teach you how to developed that fruit.
It is all self help...self improvement...self dedicated to God...self lowering its place and.working to raise up anouther...still all self.
But the scriptures say the old man is crucified in Christ...buried in his death...the resurection life is the Spirit making you to live....not living with you..living for you.
Not to go to long but Jesus said in anouther place that these leaders say if they had been alive in their fathers days they would not have killed the prophets....but by making memorials of their graves they showed they did not understand the life these men preached....I myself and every christian I have known has said if they where there they would not have crucified Jesus...but we teach his death forgave us...and forget he has given us life by making us one with God.

Norah accidentally posted this on another thread

 

[Norah63]

It was no accident. A good word fits in several places.
But thanks for noticing.

 

[rick357]

It was no accident. A good word fits in several places.
But thanks for noticing.

I mean my post on the other thread was an accident....by the way I love Tozer.

 

[Norah63]

Oh, I understand now.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Y'all keep the ball rolling while I do some reading. Will post later.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Reading the Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years , I came across the "Teachings of the Twelve Apostles" which included John Chrysostom's the "Synopsis of the Works of the Old Testament," the "Epistle of Barnabas," A.D. 70-120 two epistles of Clement, and less important works. Reading into this, I find that it was believed in the "teaching," ("Teaching of the Twelve Apostles") that in the New Testament verse: "Every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven" (the sin of an apostle asking money for his services). This would make sense that God would not take lightly of such conduct.

John Chrysostom was a fine Christian, excellent leader, but was hated by the Christian Leaders of his day. Why? No need to explain why, for he followed Christ and his leaders did not, plain and simple (God seed's amongst the tares). Check out for yourself about him: John Chrysostom - OrthodoxWiki (notice that this source came from the Orthodox wiki site).



Of a writing, the "Teaching"(composed in 120 - 160 A.D.), which was quoted by Clement of Alexandria, by Eusebius and by Anthanasius, in an American edition in English (translation) with notes by Roswell D. Hitchcock and Francis Brown, professors in Union Theological Seminary, New York, they said that the work was entirely silent on the duration of punishment (God's judgment to come). This is interesting. Surely, if damnation into everlasting torement was known then, then it would not be silent, would it?


How much of the understanding of Christ is denied us because of the interference of rather bad religious leaders. Two thousand years of Tare ridden Christian history is a bit much to unravel. We just as soon give up, and then we should pray and let God re-establish his church again. There be too many tares in these fields and perhaps only the Angels are able to remove them, but God has commanded them not to. What a mess Satan is capable of! We need to be like John Chrysostom and follow Jesus. Does anyone see things as I do? Surely, I am not alone in seeking out our true faith in Christ.

There is a trend here that exposes those who are the tares and those who follow Christ. We might as well go through history and mark these two groups, right? No, we don't really have the right, but we can at least decide on those who do follow Jesus, just look at what kind of people are those who hate them. Jesus was killed by religious authority, this didn't end with the start of his church.

Sometimes, I have thought that to do this exposure of the tares might be against the will of God, but I am one who lacks fear. I trust God and Christ. I am only one little plant growing amongst the tares around me. Because I see what is going on, am I wrong to expose this corruption, surely I am not an Angel whom God had commanded not to remove the tares, but I am one to try to make sense of things and encourage us all to come closer to Jesus and not our neighboring tare?

I will explore more writings into universal salvation, to see what else there is to our real faith, our primitive faith in Jesus.

 

[timbo3]

So, do you believe we should follow God's law explicitly? (In other words, do you think following God means following a nebulous arc of grace, rather than directly following His laws?) And, please show where Christ or God said we can throw away His laws I favor of the "grace of the new covenant." Why did Christ say be perfect as God? Where did God dismiss His laws "given to Moses," and where did He say only Hebrews have to follow His law?

Must we carefully follow God's laws ? Jesus answered that by telling Satan, quoting Deuteronomy 8:3: "Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah's mouth." Through a series of covenants, Jehovah has provided what commands we are to follow.

The Mosaic Law covenant was given only to the nation of Israel, for Psalms 147 says that God "declares his word to Jacob, His regulations and judgments to Israel. He has not done so with any other nation; They know nothing about his judgments. Praise Jah !".(Ps 147:19, 20)

The apostle Paul wrote of the Mosaic Law: "What, then, is the advantage of the Jew......A great deal in every way. First of all, that they were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements (Mosaic Law) of God."(Rom 3:1, 2) Paul also points out that the Law covenant was "a guardian leading to Christ".(Gal 3:24)

Therefore, after Jesus blood instituted the "new covenant" on Pentecost 33 C.E. (Luke 22:19, 20; Acts 2:4), the Mosaic Law covenant became obsolete. Paul wrote to the Hebrews: "In his saying “a new covenant,” he has made the former one (old law covenant) obsolete. Now what is obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away."(Heb 8:13)

The Mosaic Law is built on the principle of love, in which Jesus identified the two greatest commands as (1) "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind."(Matt 22:37, quoting from Deut 6:5) and (2) "The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself."(Matt 22:39, quoting from Lev 19:18)

With the Law covenant, an Israelite could just read what it said and go through the motions of obedience without heartfelt motivation, but with the "new covenant", this changed things, for this now fully involved the heart.

At Jeremiah 31, Jehovah said: "Look ! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.”(Jer 31:31, 32)

Jehovah now says: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”(Jer 31:33)

What effect will this have ? "And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah !’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin.”(Jer 31:34)

The nation of fleshly Israel was replaced with another "nation" that would "know" Jehovah, for Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders: "This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:43)

With the flow of Jehovah's holy spirit upon individuals of this new "nation" who are really striving to please him, they no longer needed a series of written laws to determine what genuine or agape love is.(the Mosaic law contained some 600 laws that became the nation of fleshly Israel's national constitution)

These ones of this new "nation" would have Jehovah's "law within them", fulfilling "the law of the Christ".(Gal 6:2) These ones would grasp what the Bible really teaches, recognizing that only a "few" are willing to do what God requires of them.(Matt 7:14; Luke 13:24)

These ones have put into practice (and not just words), what Jesus words means: "You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Matt 5:48) These ones have implemented what it means to love as Jehovah loves, to be "perfect" in agape or self-sacrificing love (Matt 5:44, 45), unwilling to go to war, putting into practice the prophetic words of Isaiah 2: "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, nor will they learn war anymore."(Isa 2:4)

These ones have "streamed" to "the mountain of the house of Jehovah" where true religion is found, recognizing that this is where the "word of Jehovah" is.(Isa 2:2, 3) These ones have done as Paul wrote, quoting from Joel 2:32: "For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”(Rom 10:13)

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Timbo3,

The Christian that tries to be perfect by following Jesus will not be joining in violence, but living with the Holy Spirit giving them guidance, strength and Christ's pathway for us to the Father. JWs are a people trying to follow such a pathway to please God, Jehovah. I know their sincerity. I don't know of their right to attain what they claim, as being His new people. We are mere humans, even if we are JWs. The umbrella clause of being Shepardly led to the Father by their elders is kind and nice, but is it accurate and is this what God wants (another organization of man trying to please God and are exclusive to Him)? Is primitive faith personal or man organized? Is the church tare-free and able to accomplish what JWs believe? If you don't recognize Satan's tares throughout the world, including within all of Christendom (the New Testament to the churches to all the unique faith environments (the Christendom environment one has found his conversion and faith in Christ)), then how can you know that you are pleasing to Jehovah God? If you assume that the New Testament is the infallible Word of God and don't really check it out, how can you claim all is well within the Kingdom Halls? There is too much assumptions within all churches and Kingdom Halls. Are you even allowed to see if the New Testament has developed problems by all the evidence out there: (example: Comma Johanneum ( Desiderius Erasmus ) and others). So where is infallibility when it comes to corruptions? Primitive faith is still possible, but it is by having for sure the commands and teachings of Jesus and his Gospel.

Here goes my assumption: we have these things (the commands and teachings of Jesus and his Gospel) preserved by God and of no interest of man or Satan. I know that we don't have an infallible New Testament. If everyone stands on equal footing with being able to be pleasing to God on his own with the guidance and help of the Holy Spirit, then the real church is the spiritual one of a varied yet unified group of Christians from within Christendom around the world. They know God for they follow Jesus and they actually obey Jesus. Can a weaker Christian be a part of this spiritual church? I hate to say it, but the answer is probably yes.

I have to go before editing my post here, I have a three year old son needing my attention. Love you brother and others here.

 

[CryOfALion]

I am not going to get any further into it. I already said following the Law is about obedience, not salvation. People keep confusing the two.

I could pound scripture from the mouth of God that shows us 1) the Law of God is for EVERYONE who wants to be a child of God, not just Hebrews, and 2) Christ charges us to be perfect like Our Father.

It won't matter. As I said, I have been through this before with other believers on this forums. I have yet to see from Christ's mouth that we are NOT to follow God's laws.

So, I will do you all a favor and exorcise myself from the thread. You all carry on. I don't feel like being called a stumbling block heretic demon tare again.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

CryOfALion,

I hope that I am not correcting you. I respect your view on God's and Jesus' requirements. I definitely don't call you or anyone here a tare or stumbling block, please don't think that you are.

A tare has to be a lie, for we are children of the truth, of the light and of God. Nobody should be calling another a tare. We don't judge one another. That isn't part of being respectful and loving. A Christian that devotes themselves to following Christ as best as they can in their faith environment isn't wrong and isn't a tare. We shouldn't be feeling hurt or out numbered or weaker (or even stronger). We are a part of the family of God, even a JW who follows Jesus or Mormon who tries. If we were convicted by the Holy Spirit to follow and believe in Jesus, than we are brethren. It is difficult to live in our modern society in the flesh, and yet to be in the spirit for our God (Jehovah) and for our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet, our modern society has many advantages in joining together all around the world as one people serving God and obeying Jesus.

God be with you CryOfALion and with all here.

 

[CherubRam]

Luke 18:8
I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Various Christian leadership has taken Christians every which direction.

Jude
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.

 

[he-man]

Luke 18:8
I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Various Christian leadership has taken Christians every which direction.

Jude
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.

John 15:1-6

(1) "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. (2) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. (3) You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. (4) Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. (5) "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned up.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Does anyone agree with this: "Every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven" (the sin of an apostle asking money for his services)?

If there is silence here about this, then should I ask doesn't everyone here believe that this is true? The mortal sin that can't be forgiven is the sin of an apostle (religious leader) asking money for his services!

So one's faith is terribly wrong when such is done. This is a common thing in our world today and back through history for the love of money.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I have come across another writer's website talking about universalism Christianity. It is very interesting. I will give my opinion here soon. For those who want to check out some on America's beginning belief in universalism Christianity, here is the site:

Where Have All the Universalists Gone? | The Christian Universalist Association

This other site that I gave seems to have problems opening, may have been hacked by someone or some group opposing them or is just having technical difficulties:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html#5 I won't at the present time be able to read anymore on this site, so I will save this when it is working again.

There are many Universalist Christians in the world and this faith of theirs has been attacked by those who believe that God has a tormenting everlasting Hell for souls, you figure! I am finding that those who believe God as unusual and being a tyrant & capable of horrendous evil, are actually acting the part that they believe of their God. Go figure again! You can imagine how wonderful is the faith of those who believe "that God is too good to condemn humankind to Eternal Hell and that , sooner or later , ALL humanity will be saved ."

We don't have a choice of faith under most Orthodox and Unorthodox Christian denominations. Yet universal salvation Christianity is growing slowly around worldwide (perhaps because of the internet). This has been happening within many denominations and to regular Christians. Christian universalism is like lifting a huge load off of a person's shoulders. The more that I view regular Christendom's popular basic faith, the more that I realize the connection of a soul killing & tormenting God with Paganism and just plain evil human nature. How are you going to escape your old self & human nature, if you accept Christendom's misguidance with its implanted ways and thoughts into our basic faith?

I have seen this same scenario going on when researching Trinity years ago. The deeper that I got the more that I realized that those who support it and led it were not acting as Jesus commanded us, and to my opinion these people really don't have any excuse to be against Him (Jesus doesn't change and faith doesn't either, I guess you either have real faith or you don't).

 

[Stephen Kendall]

The whole point of this thread is to answer "will Jesus find faith on earth when he returns" with another question, "what is the faith that Jesus spoke of?" We are here to try and find this primitive faith of Christianity's beginning. The Chosen Disciples of Jesus warn what was coming that would quickly change the Church (Anti-Christs and warnings about coming bad leadership and wrongful changing of the way (faith)). These things happened long ago, shortly after the departure of the chosen ones of Jesus. Christ also warned earlier about the coming of the tares. We have an unbelievable mess from tares (& anti-Christs) amongst Christendom and around the world. These things occurred after the Torah (Hebrew Bible, Old Testament) was complete, so the tares and Anti-Christs had no effect on it.

When Rome accepted Christianity and made the empire Christian, the new Catholic church around the third century A.D. began canonizing writings to be formed into the New Testament. The early churches at that time had all sorts of sacred writings, but any scriptures that were not found to be acceptable (canonized) were destroyed. Luckily many of these escaped this destruction and now they can help piece together the primitive faith of the churches. This canonizing of the writings into our New Testament eroded some of the effectiveness of the primitive faith scattered around these early Christians. The problems that started then has continued by its forceful way from its new canonized faith which had left the earlier primitive one and also the simplicity in following Christ alone. For those who have researched Christianity, and know some of what I have been speaking in this thread, would be putting together a Christian puzzle about our faith much like I have been. We know for a fact when you make things modern and new, all sorts of problems occur. When you sterilize wheat to make it white, you harm your food. When you make medicines to cover-up or reduce systems, and yet do not discover the root cause, you become a pill pusher and the disease continues. Your new, modern and so called better ways are damaging. The body is an amazing thing and able to heal itself if understood and given its full needs. We need to use its mind to help find a better way for it than the mess that our modern thinking has created (to prolong the old bad ways (self) and live comfortably with its diseases). So, this is true with the modernizing in the 3rd Century A.D. of the church; sterilizing, covering up the healing process (not dealing with the old human nature (old self) and not allowing the Spirit to heal us in Christ. It is true that the Spirit is as amazing and able to heal when Christ is understood and we get his full Word.