Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

[timbo3]

Stephen Kendall,

Unlike so many who espouse their own personal philosophy on the Bible (without consistently using the Bible to provide what is "truth"), I let the Bible speak for itself, following Jesus example. In your posts, the Bible is mostly not used, just a personal feeling of what you think the Bible says.

Jesus did not follow this dictum. Rather, he used the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly referred to as the Old Testament) consistently throughout his ministry to explain prophesy. When challenged by the Pharisees concerning his disciples eating some heads of grain on the Sabbath, Jesus referred them to 1 Samuel 21 and Numbers 28.(Matt 12:1-8)

Or when on another occasion, the Pharisees found fault with Jesus disciples about washing their hands before a meal. How did he respond ? He condemned them, quoting from Exodus 20 and Isaiah 29.(Matt 15:1-11) The Bible establishes that there is only one "truth" or one true religion.

At Acts 9:1, 2, it says that "Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women."

Many Bibles blur what is really said, such as the King James Bible, that reads that "Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, and desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem."

The Greek reads, not "this way", but "the Way"(Greek tes (of the) hodou (way), not houtos that means "this way") identifying as the name of true religion in the first century, being called this even after the designation of "Christian" was given.(Acts 11:26; 19:9) Yet it renders accurately Jesus words "I am the way" (Greek he hodos)

In addition, what religious organization stands for Jehovah God as his people, being identified by that unique name ? Though Jehovah is used in the Bible some 7,000 times and more often than even "God" and "Lord" combined, the churches of Christendom have failed to, not just stand for that name, but even use it.

They have found fault with what they call a "wrong pronunciation" of the divine name, but have no qualms in using other names in the Hebrew Scriptures of the Bible that have no certainty of correct pronunciation.(ancient Hebrew was written without vowels, only consonants, so that those who spoke it supplied the vowels as they read)

What religion is seeing to it that it is conforming closely to the Christian congregation of the 1st century, abstaining from blood and sexual immorality (Acts 15:20, 29), putting out those who violate this law ?(see 1 Cor 5:13 as well as Lev 17:10 whereby anyone "eating blood" was to be "cut off " or put to death)

What religion is seen at Isaiah 2, that says: "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, nor will they learn war anymore" ?(Isa 2:4) The churches of Christendom are "part and parcel" with the political governments, supplying young men for their wars. Concerning World War I, British Brigadier General Frank P. Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have and of them we made free use.”

What religion has seen through the falsity of the so-called "holidays" such as Christmas, Easter, Halloween, to name a few that the churches glorify, the pagan teaching of a "hellfire" (Jer 7:31; 19:5; 32:35) and immortal soul (Deut 12:20; Matt 10:28), and exposes them as being based on paganism, steering clear of them, applying the apostle Paul's words to "quit touching the unclean thing", so that Jehovah will "take you in" ?(2 Cor 6:17)

The churches are like what Jehovah told Jeremiah about the nation of Israel, that these will "come and stand before me in this house that bears my name and say, ‘We will be saved,’ despite your doing all these detestable things ?"(Jer 7:10)

Thence, Jesus said that "few" would gain life everlasting (Matt 7:14) because "many" are unwilling to "exert themselves vigorously" to carefully follow the Bible.(Luke 13:24) Throughout Christendom, though many feel that "Jesus is the way", they fail to meticulously look at and follow Jesus words. That is why Jesus likened such ones as building a house on sand.(Matt 7:26, 27)

Jesus used the Greek word syniemi at Matthew 13 concerning the "Kingdom of the heavens" that means "to mentally put the pieces together".(Matt 13:13-15, 19, 23, 51) The churches have not "put the pieces together" regarding what the Bible really teaches. Those who are really wanting to know "the truth" (John 8:32; 2 Tim 2:18; 4:4) will clearly see that what the churches (or those who feel that God speaks to them personally) promote is falsehood.

In the near future, when Jesus gathers "all the nations" before him in order to separate "the sheep and goats", whom will be chosen as "sheep" ?(Matt 25:31-33) Those who have failed to teach their members how to remain politically neutral and involved themselves in the political arena, accepted pagan doctrine and practices that the churches dispense, or those who have been "no part of the world" and abandoned Babylon the Great ?(Rev 18:4; John 17:16)

 

[Der Alte]

. . . What religion has seen through the falsity of the so-called "holidays" such as Christmas, Easter, Halloween, to name a few that the churches glorify, the pagan teaching of a "hellfire" (Jer 7:31; 19:5; 32:35) and immortal soul (Deut 12:20; Matt 10:28), and exposes them as being based on paganism, steering clear of them, applying the apostle Paul's words to "quit touching the unclean thing", so that Jehovah will "take you in" ?(2 Cor 6:17) . . .

The standard JW tirade against the Christian church. The church does not glorify "Halloween." That is strictly a secular observance. Nothing about the church's observance of Christmas and the Lord's resurrection is pagan. The church is not responsible for how society has secularized and commercialized both the birth of Christ and His resurrection. Neither the teaching of hell nor the immortal soul is pagan either.

Here is a link to one of my previous posts documenting that Jesus taught about hell to His fellow Jews who already believed in hell.

[post=66402666]Thread: Do you think you deserve eternal torment in hell? Post #21[/post]

 

[Stephen Kendall]

timbo3,

I don't think that you heard me or understood what I wrote. We are all busy about our business, I understand. If you want, go back to the last post or two which were directed to you and listen. I don't always quote the Bible, because the words of Christ are within me (I listened and still do) and I try to speak from my heart. I am not perfect, but I trust in Christ. You also didn't hear me say that the Torah and the commands of Christ, I view as untouched or truly canonized, but some of the New Testament has been messed with, so I can't say that they are infallible.

Yes, you are hearing me and my words and opinion. If it bothers you that I don't speak in the Bible, but speak from my heart instead, then just realize that is the type of person that I am. I accepted Jesus and thirst for what He gives me and love to share. Much of my thoughts are coming from the Bible, I just haven't laid out the usual road map to its location.

I will try to post shorter messages so that people can understand what I am saying.

Don't feel obligated to post to me, since your conversion efforts toward me will not work, I have heard it all before, probably 40 plus years ago. Things are not going to click and convert me away from Jesus into a JW. I have researched for a long time about our Christian history and many of the things of Christianity, including JWs. I am only speaking as one searching his faith to better understand what the early faith of Jesus' disciples was.

Have a great day in the Lord, timbo3.

 

[Norah63]

We have a saying around our home that goes, " every man preaches what he most needs to hear".
Kind of an interesting thought, so I remember it for myself quite often.
When someone goes on about religion, they are needing to hear about religion.
If someone goes on an on about Jesus, and hearing from Holy Spirit, thats what they need.
Same with greek and hebrew studies of history.
Myself, it is learning about how people view their faith. We all come from a unique perspective on things. Hopefully edifying each other from time to time.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

We have a saying around our home that goes, " every man preaches what he most needs to hear".
Kind of an interesting thought, so I remember it for myself quite often.
When someone goes on about religion, they are needing to hear about religion.
If someone goes on an on about Jesus, and hearing from Holy Spirit, thats what they need.
Same with greek and hebrew studies of history.
Myself, it is learning about how people view their faith. We all come from a unique perspective on things. Hopefully edifying each other from time to time.

I guess that I need to know what I may not know for sure and that is the reason that I keep talking about it, or maybe I already know about this and am trying to have someone convince me of what I already know or convince me that it isn't true what I believe is the answer.

Confusing? No. Let me explain. I believe that faith is a certain way and it has gone astray. I am afraid that a friend of mine has already said it, that we don't know the commands of Jesus and if we do, then we don't do them.

One of the most difficult challenges for Christians, is the simplest. To accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and to do what he has commanded us to do. Now, what is it that he commanded us to do. If we are rich, sell all that we have and give it to the poor, or is it that we are average and sell all that we have and give it to the poor? That is one case of refusal of most Christians of knowing what Jesus commanded and shaking their heads.

Our faith is the most important thing about us and our relationship with Jesus and our Father. We believe Jesus is the son of God and savior, but is our faith able to accomplish his commands of us? Even so, what commands go to what person, or are we all recipients of them? The JWs divide Christians into groups, for they may be believing that Jesus isn't commanding them all the same way, since one has a Heavenly hope, another an Earthly hope, and also there are the ruling classes (I believe).

My faith is important to me and knowing what Jesus really is commanding of us all, so I speak about this.

I know one part of Jesus' commands that are imminent for all of us, that is for us to be moral, forgiving, stop sinning, repentant, loving & caring to all people (even creatures) of the Earth and tell the world about Jesus & the Gospel. Yet what about the rest of his commands, the harder ones?

When I talk here about faith, I seem to leave out this part, for us to actually seek and do obey Jesus entirely. This kind of faith is one that others will know that we really are his, or is it? If our faith doesn't have to give everything to the poor, but instead we give our all to God's glory with our entire being and life, and trust him alone through his son Jesus, is that not the same? I have an older sister that loves God and has raised 4 young men to the glory of God, and live every moment within her heart for him, filled with peace and love. She is an example for everyone about faith and what is needed in it.

I sinned terribly in my life, during my younger years. It was the hardest thing to stop, repent and live without sinning. Jesus told us to stop sinning, even to conquer (the world?). I now feel comfortable to live a quiet life, yet eager to speak of God's will from the inspirations within me to everyone, rich, poor, neighbors, enemies, friends and strangers. I don't have the JW's Pioneers 8 or 10 hours a day job, doing that (full time), but I do have the 24/7 job of being for God and Christ. I know the hard work of the JWs, however also of their unfortunate pride, but they are a peaceful group who without question help one another and even outsiders (people of the world). You are right Norah, we do need to edify and speak kindly and lovingly to each other. It seems hard to find enough ignorance in our souls to be submissive to God's will through Jesus' teachings to love each other better than we do ourselves. I talk rather poorly.

Is the faith that I have been trying to bring to surface in this thread, so simple that it is to be 100% Jesus and show it 100% of the time, from food to tv, from words to internet sites, from conduct behind the steering wheel to kindness in greeting all, from listening & being quiet to speaking what God has us to. We already have the faith, it is just our laziness to stay within the confines of the world. The world and its traditions have our attention, for we aren't really awake for God. Please someone else speak up and tell what God has put into your heart to say. Fellowship to me, is speaking what God gives us to, edifying and building up one another.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I guess, for others, this thread seems to have reached the saturation point, but for me, faith is just too big of a subject to say we have it without even sharing what it is that we have. We share our traditions, church doctrines, opinions and sleepless hours posting & arguing, yet do we share what is most common to us, our hearts? We hide behind handles, hidden names, yet quickly close up to being able to speak freely. This is a forum of hearts to speak all of our heart before others.

bit too sleepy to post, have a good night and day to come.

 

[Norah63]

One reason many may not post on this thread is that it just doesnt meet their standard of what faith means to them. Just guessing on that? So timbo laid it all out what his faith is in. We each do that in our own way of explaining faith. Faith in Jesus is in all true believers, its having it show thru fellowship with each other. (so few posters)
The early church had a lot more in common with each other, which is why they could share their lands and goods so freely. While each still had their own homes to meet in and fellowship.
Today the idea of community is long gone. Buildings to meet for a few hours each week, then dont see anyone till next meeting.
The best idea of communal living we have is nursing homes. Could be an example of how some of the early church may have provided for the widows.
Fellowship on forums is mostly for arguments and snide remarks (sad to say)

 

[rick357]

One reason many may not post on this thread is that it just doesnt meet their standard of what faith means to them. Just guessing on that? So timbo laid it all out what his faith is in. We each do that in our own way of explaining faith. Faith in Jesus is in all true believers, its having it show thru fellowship with each other. (so few posters)
The early church had a lot more in common with each other, which is why they could share their lands and goods so freely. While each still had their own homes to meet in and fellowship.
Today the idea of community is long gone. Buildings to meet for a few hours each week, then dont see anyone till next meeting.
The best idea of communal living we have is nursing homes. Could be an example of how some of the early church may have provided for the widows.
Fellowship on forums is mostly for arguments and snide remarks (sad to say)

Faith will be here...after all men will have placed their faith in men....but the faith...almost nonexistant...almost....

 

[Stephen Kendall]

The early church had a lot more in common with each other, which is why they could share their lands and goods so freely. While each still had their own homes to meet in and fellowship.

The early church developed quickly into some problems to God. His disciples tried to help and direct them. In Revelations, many were moving in the wrong direction and were warned. All of this and they had miracles, excellent guidance and some with acquaintance of Jesus. How could their faith mess up so quickly that God had to warn, teach and guide them once again? There is something that I noticed with the believers closest to Jesus & God. They respected each other, though God accepted them quite differently. Peter didn't get upset with Paul, yet Paul did with Peter, but still loved him and respected him anyway.

(When I speak here in the forums and elsewhere, I speak as though the audience knows the New Testament, have read it and are reading it, much like I do, almost each day. So, I don't list a road map to everything that I say or point out. I expect them to remember those part of the New Testament that I refer to.)

Are our leaders of our churches close to God & Christ? Do they love and respect others, much like our founders? I find that they actually don't. In one of the worst cases, JWs call all the rest of the Christians of the world, lost; and their churches, Satan's churches. Yet, Christians leadership is judging each other throughout Christendom. Labels of cults are commonly thrown at each other. I shortly after opening this thread stated: "The Orthodox Christianity doesn't have a clue, for they are bent upon following woeful traditions being misled and misguided through the present passing age." This sounded pretty bad, yet I am not a leader of any church. I was trying to guide thought into the light that we have a problem about our faith. I wasn't stepping lightly, but stamping my feet at all of Christendom, Orthodox & Unorthodox alike. The ruling body got the full jest of my serious concern.

Yet, I must admit that within every single church denomination and perhaps within every single church itself (not omitting those who have faith without the organizations of churches) there are those who know Jesus and obey him as fully as they can. I wish that I were one also, yet I know better, I do try as many do, but honestly the standard is awfully high. However, I do believe that God takes notice of all of us, even the lost. If they know Jesus and obey him, then they are not the ones to attack others and speak judgment & slander towards God's servants, for God accepts souls in the faith environments. Remember what, I believe, it was Paul who said for us to accept our weaker brothers and sisters, not to condemn or insult them whom the Lord has accepted, for he is able to save them. I am afraid that most of us are the weaker brothers and sisters for our lapse in obedience to Jesus. Let us get this straight as to what obedience is to Jesus. Here is a small partial listing of his commands:

Turn the other cheek.
go the extra mile (walk another mile).
give to those who ask (like I didn't do to the needy person at Food Lion parking lot last week, and was deeply sad that I failed Jesus in this).
give a full measure.
do not let your left hand know what your right is giving (as in alms to God).
Pray quietly in the intermost closet your prayers to God.
Let your yes be yes and no be no, do not swear...
Jesus was telling us to be moral, yet loving and kind to all, especially to our enemies as well.
To not live for riches.
To not live by the sword.
To love one another as I have loved you.
To be known by your love for one another.
do not resist evil.
to share your hope to those who ask about it.
(to the question of which of the Jewish commandments were necessary for salvation, Jesus gave us five (or six) of the Ten Commandments)
be prepared for persecutions and endure them till the end, to not deny the Faith.
do unto others as you would have them do unto you (love them).
Love the Lord you God with all of your mind, heart and soul.
follow the straight and narrow road that leads to life (follow Jesus Christ).
Do not worry about food and clothing, for God loves you and will supply your needs, as he does to the sparrows or lilies of the valley.
God desires mercy and not sacrifice.
Forgive others of there trespasses against you.
Love you enemies...do good to those who despise you...
seek a lower place, to be humble and accepting to God, not the higher places of honor.
Forgive 7 times 70 times (70 times 70, or always forgive, I would!) your brother (or neighbor whoever they are).
Ask of your Father in Heaven and he will give to you (being that it is in the will of God what you ask for and that you ask out of your love for God (and others))
Heal the sick and preach the Good News.
visit the sick brethren (neighbor) and those in prison, especially the least ones.
Baptize new believing followers of Christ in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Cont':

 

[rick357]

The early church developed quickly into some problems to God. His disciples tried to help and direct them. In Revelations, many were moving in the wrong direction and were warned. All of this and they had miracles, excellent guidance and some with acquaintance of Jesus. How could their faith mess up so quickly that God had to warn, teach and guide them once again? There is something that I noticed with the believers closest to Jesus & God. They respected each other, though God accepted them quite differently. Peter didn't get upset with Paul, yet Paul did with Peter, but still loved him and respected him anyway.

(When I speak here in the forums and elsewhere, I speak as though the audience knows the New Testament, have read it and are reading it, much like I do, almost each day. So, I don't list a road map to everything that I say or point out. I expect them to remember those part of the New Testament that I refer to.)

Are our leaders of our churches close to God & Christ? Do they love and respect others, much like our founders? I find that they actually don't. In one of the worst cases, JWs call all the rest of the Christians of the world, lost; and their churches, Satan's churches. Yet, Christians leadership is judging each other throughout Christendom. Labels of cults are commonly thrown at each other. I shortly after opening this thread stated: "The Orthodox Christianity doesn't have a clue, for they are bent upon following woeful traditions being misled and misguided through the present passing age." This sounded pretty bad, yet I am not a leader of any church. I was trying to guide thought into the light that we have a problem about our faith. I wasn't stepping lightly, but stamping my feet at all of Christendom, Orthodox & Unorthodox alike. The ruling body got the full jest of my serious concern.

Yet, I must admit that within every single church denomination and perhaps within every single church itself (not omitting those who have faith without the organizations of churches) there are those who know Jesus and obey him as fully as they can. I wish that I were one also, yet I know better, I do try as many do, but honestly the standard is awfully high. However, I do believe that God takes notice of all of us, even the lost. If they know Jesus and obey him, then they are not the ones to attack others and speak judgment & slander towards God's servants, for God accepts souls in the faith environments. Remember what, I believe, it was Paul who said for us to accept our weaker brothers and sisters, not to condemn or insult them whom the Lord has accepted, for he is able to save them. I am afraid that most of us are the weaker brothers and sisters for our lapse in obedience to Jesus. Let us get this straight as to what obedience is to Jesus. Here is a small partial listing of his commands:

Turn the other cheek.
go the extra mile (walk another mile).
give to those who ask (like I didn't do to the needy person at Food Lion parking lot last week, and was deeply sad that I failed Jesus in this).
give a full measure.
do not let your left hand know what your right is giving (as in alms to God).
Pray quietly in the intermost closet your prayers to God.
Let your yes be yes and no be no, do not swear...
Jesus was telling us to be moral, yet loving and kind to all, especially to our enemies as well.
To not live for riches.
To not live by the sword.
To love one another as I have loved you.
To be known by your love for one another.
do not resist evil.
to share your hope to those who ask about it.
(to the question of which of the Jewish commandments were necessary for salvation, Jesus gave us five (or six) of the Ten Commandments)
be prepared for persecutions and endure them till the end, to not deny the Faith.
do unto others as you would have them do unto you (love them).
Love the Lord you God with all of your mind, heart and soul.
follow the straight and narrow road that leads to life (follow Jesus Christ).
Do not worry about food and clothing, for God loves you and will supply your needs, as he does to the sparrows or lilies of the valley.
God desires mercy and not sacrifice.
Forgive others of there trespasses against you.
Love you enemies...do good to those who despise you...
seek a lower place, to be humble and accepting to God, not the higher places of honor.
Forgive 7 times 70 times (70 times 70, or always forgive, I would!) your brother (or neighbor whoever they are).
Ask of your Father in Heaven and he will give to you (being that it is in the will of God what you ask for and that you ask out of your love for God (and others))
Heal the sick and preach the Good News.
visit the sick brethren (neighbor) and those in prison, especially the least ones.
Baptize new believing followers of Christ in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Cont':

Stephen you know someone once asked our Lord the greatest commandment...with his death and resurection and exaltation whereby the Holy Spirit has come to make us one with The Father and our Lord...if the same question was asked...how would our Lord sum up the fullfilled law of the Spirit of life in Christ....it would sound like this

All that was recieved from Adam must be entrusted to me...to be crucified in my crucifiction...that Holy Spirit may be the only life found in you...that I and my Father may live our shared life in you that our life is made your life...
For in this faith is every command made alive in us.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Cont':

So, if God is willing and able to accept others who try to follow Jesus in their particular faith environments, then we need to follow Jesus' main command for us "to be known by our love for one another". A JW who calls us following Satan's ways and going to his churches is hard to accept as brethren, but God is willing and able to accept them and does, for they in their faith environment love God, his commands through his son Jesus and love the lost, why aren't we also as God accepting them? Don't we believe in our own faith in Christ to follow him, obey him and even die for him? There is some merit to the claims of JWs about most of Christendom of participating in the evils of war and supporting its platforms on both sides of defense and aggression, yet this went on even in the early times, did God not accept soldiers, because they would have blood on their hands from the violence involved in their jobs? A whole legion of Roman soldiers were crucified & martyred for they would never denounce their faith in Jesus. Is the faith that Christians have worthy of our acceptance, even if they seem wrong to the way that we believe? If we fear God, I would at least show caution of condemning those who have faith in Jesus in their own faith environments. Whether it is us towards say JWs or them towards the rest of Christendom, which includes us, we need to be forwarding, forgiving and accepting with our love extended, always.

What has caused our faith environments to exist? They existed even in the early church, as I mentioned above about Paul accepting the weaker Christians and showing utmost respect & love. Faith environments are caused mainly by the tares ravaging the world, people and churches. There are other reasons and one is the limitations of our faith economy. We can't research ourselves into the perfect one unified faith with God & Christ. There just isn't an ability, time or even interest for the such a extreme & long pursuit. Yet, we can take the examples of Paul, Peter, John and others, to be able to love each other and accept weaker or stronger ones, yes, even JWs. Love is a light and without it we proceed into darkness. I have this idea that we give up our rights when we follow Jesus. What are we left with, his Spirit, love, peace, and salvation. Are our rights of being on Earth, as good as what Jesus offers us? I really do believe that we should listen to each other. JWs should listen us and we to them. We can benefit each other, yet need to be respectful and do everything honoring God through the Spirit of Christ to love each other, always.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Stephen you know someone once asked our Lord the greatest commandment...with his death and resurection and exaltation whereby the Holy Spirit has come to make us one with The Father and our Lord...if the same question was asked...how would our Lord sum up the fullfilled law of the Spirit of life in Christ....it would sound like this

All that was recieved from Adam must be entrusted to me...to be crucified in my crucifiction...that Holy Spirit may be the only life found in you...that I and my Father may live our shared life in you that our life is made your life...
For in this faith is every command made alive in us.

Please rewrite what it is that you are trying to say. Please don't take this wrong, I am not sure what you said. Maybe my thick brain isn't taking it in. Just be more straight forward and write without broken sentences. I will listen and respond. Thank you.

 

[rick357]

Please rewrite what it is that you are trying to say. Please don't take this wrong, I am not sure what you said. Maybe my thick brain isn't taking it in. Just be more straight forward and write without broken sentences. I will listen and respond. Thank you.

I will try to be plain...this is the way in wich Jesus fulfilled the law.
1) the law(even those things Jesus commanded) is not a list of things to do but a mirror of who we should be.
2) the life we recieved as from Adam was self generated cut off from God a self life...God calls this death because it is seperated from him
3) this self life can not generate the power to be the way the law teaches us to be...Paul tells us that trying to do the law only shows us the sin and death that is in us
4) but when we trust in what Jesus has done for us our old self is crucified in him
5) not only this but Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit wich becomes the source of our life...no longer a self life...but made one with the Father and his Son by the Spirit...it is their life living in us shared with us to make us one.

So we trust him to will and to do in us...if we see our life is not in line with what he has told us his life is...then we know we have trusted in our old man...so we confess our sin(lack of trust in him alone) and trust him to live through us.
In the short form...we lose our self life and by faith in him his life lives through us making us one with him. we become the living word instead of trying to perform what is written.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I will try to be plain...this is the way in wich Jesus fulfilled the law.
1) the law(even those things Jesus commanded) is not a list of things to do but a mirror of who we should be.
2) the life we recieved as from Adam was self generated cut off from God a self life...God calls this death because it is seperated from him
3) this self life can not generate the power to be the way the law teaches us to be...Paul tells us that trying to do the law only shows us the sin and death that is in us
4) but when we trust in what Jesus has done for us our old self is crucified in him
5) not only this but Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit wich becomes the source of our life...no longer a self life...but made one with the Father and his Son by the Spirit...it is their life living in us shared with us to make us one.

So we trust him to will and to do in us...if we see our life is not in line with what he has told us his life is...then we know we have trusted in our old man...so we confess our sin(lack of trust in him alone) and trust him to live through us.
In the short form...we lose our self life and by faith in him his life lives through us making us one with him. we become the living word instead of trying to perform what is written.

Interesting way to see things. Oh that the Bible and man's understanding ways of it could possibly be one. I think that we might be saying somewhat the same. I only listed the commands of Christ, for he said, if we love him, we will obey him. I am only trying to get the idea across that we are to mature and love him, we can't go back and forth drinking the milk of the word forever, we need to grow and eat solid food.

We can have the self correctional decision action like you have stated, to be able to recognize our missteps from Jesus and let him help us back, good idea. However, I do think that we are allowed to be free thinkers and like him on our own and own choice. Having Jesus clean up behind us for everything that we do wrong isn't the best idea. Instead, we are to cement into our hearts his ways as ours. The small list of things (some of his commands) is only a token bit of understanding the complexity of being like him and able to be recognized as his friends and family. If we strive for these and do what the Spirit tells us, then at least we are on the right pathway out of our sincerity and faith.

If we develop a mature faith, then we can all come together and be responsible and growing up to God's expectations of us. We are to become like Jesus and be with him there by be with our Father as well. There are rewards. We need to mature to obtain them. In God's family, excellence and maturity are just as important as in any other. Thank you for posting.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I get the sense that there is a lot of interest in universal salvation around. I don't want to commit to a popular belief. I have much to consider. It took me 9 months of heavy researching to decide on whether to believe in Trinity or not. It may take longer with universal salvation. I really don't have the time to search it all out, but I do heavily lean in its direction. I just need to connect between the lamb of God and salvation through the universal concept yet being through his blood alone. I am sure that it is possible with Jesus to save all in that way.

I am sure in the end, that we will understand the wisdom of God to have things as they are, for our best and for the lost also. We cry out God is love. We cry out not in vain. I believe that we will see that cry as true when we come to him.

I believe that one reason things seem so messed up, is for us in our own capacity to be God's children and follow Jesus to him, to work out our salvations by obeying and following his son Jesus. Why is it all messed up? Its the tares. Why did not God remove them, because we are to mature and follow Jesus. Is it irresponsible for the Father to love us and not try to remove the tares, uprooting and damaging us? Remember that though these appear to hold us up, they are there to choke God's Word in us, in no way are they a part of our faith. Will we not mature and see what is around us? If we can't love one another, we are being choked by Satan's planted tares. We can produce and stand alone with our hearts and souls for God, through our Lord Jesus.

Have a great day. I am trying to read some into universal salvation, yet this will take awhile. When I see the connections that I am looking for, I will relate them here for us to examine together, whoever wants to.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I am believing that the leadership of Christendom's churches, including JWs, are the ones being most attacked and surrounded by the tares. The popularity of universal salvation seems to be more outside of the 2,000 years of leadership trying to control the Christian masses. You could say that Satan was much more interested in the leadership of the church and not so in the flock that is suppose to be subject to them. Makes sense, however, Satan's calculations are showing to be off. The internet is allowing for people to become interested in what is making more sense of Scripture and of Jesus' sacrifice. The leadership here at CF must be tare laden, yet here and throughout the internet it is possible to discuss somewhat about the implications of what might have been the real understanding of the Gospel within Jesus' chosen ones. Surely faith as was then can come again. The freedom of the internet allows people to think. I hope that it remains free. I believe that the real faith and church can return by it and the Holy Spirit working through it. Have a great day.

 

[Norah63]

Nice post rick, well said. That last line really nailed it.
"we become the living word instead of trying to perform what is written"

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I will try to be plain...this is the way in wich Jesus fulfilled the law.
1) the law(even those things Jesus commanded) is not a list of things to do but a mirror of who we should be.
2) the life we recieved as from Adam was self generated cut off from God a self life...God calls this death because it is seperated from him
3) this self life can not generate the power to be the way the law teaches us to be...Paul tells us that trying to do the law only shows us the sin and death that is in us
4) but when we trust in what Jesus has done for us our old self is crucified in him
5) not only this but Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit wich becomes the source of our life...no longer a self life...but made one with the Father and his Son by the Spirit...it is their life living in us shared with us to make us one.

So we trust him to will and to do in us...if we see our life is not in line with what he has told us his life is...then we know we have trusted in our old man...so we confess our sin(lack of trust in him alone) and trust him to live through us.
In the short form...we lose our self life and by faith in him his life lives through us making us one with him. we become the living word instead of trying to perform what is written.

I guess this is what happens when I don't understand what I read. After seeing Norah's response, I reread what it was that you wrote. You made a lot of sense. You didn't show the usual road map to verses in the Bible. You sort of wrote like I have, perhaps from your heart accepting Jesus. Thank you for posting here.

What you said, much of what most likely came from Paul's writings, does indeed describe a Christian's faith, a serious Christian. I do believe that Christ gave us the commands and teachings as a tool and help to guide us away from the old self belonging to the world. If you notice, the teachings and commands of Christ aren't like the traditions, religious practices & doctrines of man, they are love, peace, moral and commitment to Jesus & his Gospel. Yes, Christ gave us a most treasured gift, his and his Father's Spirit to keep us and allow us to be his. Have a wonderful day in the Lord my friend.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I am going to try to read a rather old book online, Der Alter called too old, not modern enough, not to be taken that seriously. Surely, we should take the New Testament seriously, which is over 20 times older. Sir Issac Newton's works are quite relevant even today. If someone, wrote something very well, even without our more modern appreciative degrees, then he should be investigated. I will read it and at times report some of what I find on this thread. It was published in 1899 and here it is:

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

This is important to what is the faith that Jesus Christ gave to his early church? I believe that what he gave is quite different than what man has made since then.

I am sure to find surprises that I may not like; universal salvation mixed with Trinity or other Christendom major beliefs. Like I have said, we have our faith environments and the economy of our time doesn't allow us to investigate everything. That is ok, God is able to save us, we should be sincere and follow Jesus.

 

[CryOfALion]

Since this is unorthodox, maybe I have some latitude to say this.

I do think the Law is nothing compared to Christ, and is a mere extension of what it means to be Him. I understand we are saved by grace, not by how well we follow the Law.

But, if we don't strive for perfection like Christ - essentially arguing obedience to some Standard is necessary - then aren't we just "good people" who happen to believe in Christ? What separates us from an open minded person who believes in Christ, or even that He rose from the dead, but do not follow His Father's commandments - at least try to all the way (not picking)?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I really want to know how the philosophy of rejecting "Moses' law" for a better law came to mean ignoring, or leaving the OT laws to the Hebrews. I thought followers of Christ were [spiritual] Abrahamic seed, and therefore are a part of the extrapolation of both covenants over us spiritually. Christ tells us we have to be perfect, yet we understand this is a paradox that is vindicated through both obedience and faith in Him? Or, at the "greatest commandments" all we follow, and let everything else fall into place?