Wicca

[Lifesaver]

That's right. It was the center of Christianity at the very beginning, but the city itself was majority Jewish, by population, and Roman ruled.

And after some centuries Rome became Christian. And after it was taken over, ruled by other Christians as well.

 

[SquareC]

Ah, Jerusalem is Christian by right of inheritance from the Roman Empire, I see.

I decided it was propaganda after reading it and comparing it to my knowledge of history, gleaned from many sources, not just one website. You constantly go back to that one site to back up your assertions. Can't you find anything else that backs 'em up? As a matter of fact, the only way you would convince me that your assertions are true would be to find a neutral source that confirms them. I don't think that's going to happen!

 

[Rae]

Most Witches of all faiths aren't atheists. Our Gods have no problem with us practicing witchcraft.

witchcraft DOESN'T WORK!

Yes, hon, it does.

You say the Bible is a work of fiction. But I'm not the one believing in fairy tales.

Too bad. Many fairy tales are far more moral than the Bible tales are.

 

[Cerridwen]

Hey~

The defensive wars of the Crusades... Is it so evil to fight for what is yours?

Defensive??? Yeah, okay. 'Convert or die', that's quite a defensive approach.
Evil to fight for what is yours? Hmmm....think about the Native Americans, who were here first, completely happy & comfortable with their own cultural religion, who were raped, murdered, made sick(on purpose, no less), & had the land that really was theirs stolen out from under them by "good Christian white men". Or the attempts to wipe out various other non-Christian religions across the planet.

Of course, there were pillaging, looting and raping, all wrong, which the Church condemned and still does to this very day.

Condemned maybe, but that didn't (& still doesn't) stop them from doing it.

Heretics and their false doctrines can have a very negative effect on society, especially in medieval and early modern times.

Especially when it takes revenue or adoration from the Almighty Church....or *gasp* makes any of those noble aristocrats appear anything less than stellar.

Indeed, very wrong things. But not Christian at all, I'm affraid.

Lots of those God-fearing Klan members & White Supremacists would beg to differ there. They believe that what they are doing is "god's will", the same as the multitude of homophobics out there.

So, when Christian do wrong things, you assume that Christianity is in accord with them.

It might be different if there weren't so very many instances throughout history, & even today, of "good Christians" doing & saying bad things in the name of God or under the guise of morality.

What...?

Anyone worth his or her salt in religious history knows that the Bible was taken away from & added to more times than can be counted. Not to mention the myriad ways it has been translated & mistranslated to mean whatever the folks in charge think it should mean. It is full of the political rhetoric of the day, the degradation of women, the anti-diversity campaign.....so on & so forth. The only literate people back in that time were the clergy, so they could put whatever furthered their cause of the moment in that book & people had no choice but to live by it. They were afraid, & very superstitious. If they were told "God said so-and-so" by the Priest, then they believed it, whether it was true or not.

Not at all. Have you never seen examples of people doing things they think are right in secrecy? Are you incapable of imagining a husband who does not feel any regret on cheating his wife?

My point here is that if it is so necessary to keep something a secret, then the person keeping the secret obviously has reasons to fear another knowing about it. If he didin't think there was anything wrong with what he did, he wouldn't have concerned himself with keeping it hidden. Had he not felt regret, he wouldn't have cared whether she knew about it or not. Of course he may be perfectly capable of cheating without regret, but if that were so, secrecy wouldn't be necessary.

What part of her was harmed? The soul? The mind? The body?

I'd say that would depend on how many STDs he brought home to her.

Love can only be unconditional when the option of betrayal is present. If men choose to rebel, that's their choice, and accordingly, they won't spend eternity in God's presence.

No, unconditional love is love without conditions on it. In other words, Unconditional love doesn't require any preexisting conditions or other factors to be unconditional. It simply is.

Not at all. It only shows that your dictionary isn't a very precise authority in interpreting the Bible.

When I gave you the common definition of 'know', the definition that most accept for the usage in the Original Sin story, you gave me a reference
to the word 'know' used in the context of the citizens of Sodom wanting to 'know' Lot's visitors, which, obviously, referred to sexual activity. You said it, I only elaborated-no subjective interperatation there on my part.

You are indeed reading like a four year-old. But do you understand what you are reading? You have made pretty clear already that you are not. You are interpreting it to fit with the common Neo-Pagan picture of God: a patriarchal opressor who blackmails people and is bad to animals.
If I took one book you hold to be sacred (supposing you have one) and applied my personal interpretation to it, would it make my interpretation true?

And you are rude & amazingly presumptuous. I said we learned the basic mechanics for reading at age four. I am not interperating it to "fit" any picture. I am interperating and understanding it objectively based on logic, the meanings of the words, & the context in which they are used. I began studying the Bible & the history of the religions based on it aquite a while before I became Pagan.

Do you know what a prayer is? It seems you hold the Neo-Pagan notion that a prayer is just like a spell. As for they having been effective, I'll pray for it not to be true, for your own sake.

Yes, I know what a prayer is. I have been a recovering Christian for many years, now, more than 2/3 of your life, honey. Many of our spells, candle spells in particular, are likened to prayers. We ask for help to make change occur, we ask for healing, we ask for guidance, we ask for strength....not that much different than your prayers, I'd imagine.

Now, Now, Cerridwen; you were the first to bite. "The Bible is a work of fiction" remember? Let's not pretend moral outrage or hurt feelings for hearing things we have just said.

Honey, that statement wasn't meant as an insult-it was meant as fact......while some of the writings in the Bible may be based on real events, the fact remains that most of the stories (e.g. the flood, the resurrection, a "son of God" figure) have been taken from other cultural myths & legends. Kind of like a movie "based on a true story", but with thematic elements added for dramatic effect. I'm not pretending anything, Love- it takes much more than a little bit of cyber-bickering to put me into a rage.

It is not my intention to hurt you or any other person who shares your beliefs, but I won't keep you from anything I hold to be true.

Ditto.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[Lifesaver]

Evil to fight for what is yours? Hmmm....think about the Native Americans, who were here first, completely happy & comfortable with their own cultural religion, who were raped, murdered, made sick(on purpose, no less), & had the land that really was theirs stolen out from under them by "good Christian white men". Or the attempts to wipe out various other non-Christian religions across the planet.

Would good Christian men massacre unarmed people? I think not, and all who did were certainly acting in an anti-Christian way.
However, you should also be aware that the history of USA is much romanticized nowadays to make indians seem like peaceful, loving enlightened men, when in fact they weren't (though the older stereotype of the indian as the bloodlusty and bestial savage is just as wrong).

Especially when it takes revenue or adoration from the Almighty Church....or *gasp* makes any of those noble aristocrats appear anything less than stellar.

Opinions, Cerridwen, opinions. That's all you are giving me.

Lots of those God-fearing Klan members & White Supremacists would beg to differ there. They believe that what they are doing is "god's will", the same as the multitude of homophobics out there. The Bible teaches HATE.

They can beg to differ how much they like. Racism is a sin and no white supremacist's opinion is going to change that. Wherever some group disagrees with the Church on matters of morality, they are going against Christ.
The Bible teaches us to hate sin, and to hate lies. Afterall, if one doesn't hate sin, they don't love virtue; if one doesn't hate lies, they don't love the truth.

It might be different if there weren't so very many instances throughout history, & even today, of "good Christians" doing & saying bad things in the name of God or under the guise of morality.

There were and always will be hipocrits. That doesn't mean Christianity teaches anything that is evil.

Anyone worth his or her salt in religious history knows that the Bible was taken away from & added to more times than can be counted. Not to mention the myriad ways it has been translated & mistranslated to mean whatever the folks in charge think it should mean. It is full of the political rhetoric of the day, the degradation of women, the anti-diversity campaign.....so on & so forth. The only literate people back in that time were the clergy, so they could put whatever furthered their cause of the moment in that book & people had no choice but to live by it. They were afraid, & very superstitious. If they were told "God said so-and-so" by the Priest, then they believed it, whether it was true or not.

"Anti-diversity campaign"!? Oh my...
Could you give me one Biblical passage that was altered by the "clergy" to mean what they wanted it to?

My point here is that if it is so necessary to keep something a secret, then the person keeping the secret obviously has reasons to fear another knowing about it. If he didin't think there was anything wrong with what he did, he wouldn't have concerned himself with keeping it hidden.

You have just given the answer: they kept secrecy because they didn't want to get caught and suffer the punishment of their action.

Had he not felt regret, he wouldn't have cared whether she knew about it or not. Of course he may be perfectly capable of cheating without regret, but if that were so, secrecy wouldn't be necessary.

Of course it would! People caught in adultery suffer a lot of social condemnation.

I'd say that would depend on how many STDs he brought home to her.

0.

No, unconditional love is love without conditions on it. In other words, Unconditional love doesn't require any preexisting conditions or other factors to be unconditional. It simply is.

God loves us unconditionally. Man's love for God, though, is not quite like that...
However, had we not the possibility to choose rebellion and hate, our love would never be full and free.

When I gave you the common definition of 'know', the definition that most accept for the usage in the Original Sin story, you gave me a reference
to the word 'know' used in the context of the citizens of Sodom wanting to 'know' Lot's visitors, which, obviously, referred to sexual activity. You said it, I only elaborated-no subjective interperatation there on my part.

The question is simple:
Do you believe or not that a dictionary will give you the precise meaning of the terms found in the Bible?

And you are rude & amazingly presumptuous. I said we learned the basic mechanics for reading at age four. I am not interperating it to "fit" any picture. I am interperating and understanding it objectively based on logic, the meanings of the words, & the context in which they are used. I began studying the Bible & the history of the religions based on it aquite a while before I became Pagan.

Oh, really?
And based on logic, is it?

I urge you to keep studying.

Yes, I know what a prayer is. I have been a recovering Christian for many years, now, more than 2/3 of your life, honey. Many of our spells, candle spells in particular, are likened to prayers. We ask for help to make change occur, we ask for healing, we ask for guidance, we ask for strength....not that much different than your prayers, I'd imagine.

You "ask" for those things or do you manipulate an energy to achieve the results?

And let me get one thing straight: you are "recovering" from Christianity and yet engage in practices not that much different from the thing you consider so horrid?

Honey, that statement wasn't meant as an insult-it was meant as fact......

And so were mine.
Neo-Paganism is fairy tales for grown-ups, who instead of using their minds to discover the truth prefer to make up their own beliefs and worship whatever pantheon of gods from any culture they identify with. People are making up religion as if it were a game; they seem to have lost the understanding that beliefs should be based on reality, and not feeling.

 

[Plan 9]

Opinions, Cerridwen, opinions. That's all you are giving me.

...Oh, really?
And based on logic, is it?

...I urge you to keep studying.

...Neo-Paganism is fairy tales for grown-ups, who instead of using their minds to discover the truth prefer to make up their own beliefs and worship whatever pantheon of gods from any culture they identify with. People are making up religion as if it were a game; they seem to have lost the understanding that beliefs should be based on reality, and not feeling.

In my opinion, this is merely your opinion, too, and not one based on study.
None of us can produce scientic proof of our religious beliefs; science dosn't speak to this vital area of our lives. In that sense no religious belief is not based on "reality".

In addition, I believe your statement that pagans "make up religion as though it were a game" is untrue of the majority, perjorative, and unworthy to be included in debate.

I've also read in this thread that I'm a "heretic" because I'm a Protestant, but this isn't a Protestant thread, so I saw no reason to take umbrage.
Still, all of us would do well here to show a modicum of respect for each other, don't you agree, Lifesaver?
It is so easy in debate threads to cross the line without being aware of it, and I have posts of my own here at CF which I deeply regret. Some of them I returned to within ten minutes of making them to unmake them, only to discover I was too late.

 

[Plan 9]

Now, I have an unrelated question, which I had formerly felt too silly to ask, but Volos doesn't seem to agree that my questions are as silly as I believe them to be.
Nevertheless, I'd hate to intrude on the current peaceful and enjoyable free exchange of ideas, so perhaps anyone reading or posting here who worships the ancient Greek gods might PM me instead?

 

[Caedmon]

OK, people... I'm locking this thread in order to let tempers cool off. I'm also cleaning up a few things. Let's all take a few moments for a deep cleansing breath. Now, go get something to drink, eat some chocolate, groom your german shepherd, take out the trash, make a macaroni sculpture...

 

[Caedmon]

All right, peeps... Be good, or no chocolate cake...

 

[Kira Faye]

I feel bad for starting this thread.

 

[Plan 9]

I feel bad for starting this thread.

Please don't feel that way! I've enjoyed this thread very much, and am so pleased that you started it.
People just get over-excited sometimes. Caed fixed it up and reopened it; that would make me feel great if it I had started it!
Mine threads never engender this kind of interest; they pretty much die on the vine.

 

[Kira Faye]

thanks, but I do hate it when people start fighting.......

 

[Smilin]

However, you should also be aware that the history of USA is much romanticized nowadays to make indians seem like peaceful, loving enlightened men, when in fact they weren't (though the older stereotype of the indian as the bloodlusty and bestial savage is just as wrong).

Care to discuss this further? I'll go out on a limb and state
you should be made aware that you have very little knowledge concerning
the customs, traditions, and spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans.

 

[Plan 9]

Care to discuss this further? I'll go out on a limb and state
you should be made aware that you have very little knowledge concerning
the customs, traditions, and spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans.

Smilin, I'd enjoy a discussion about this myself. I hope he takes you up on it.

 

[Plan 9]

thanks, but I do hate it when people start fighting.......

I don't enjoy it, either, but I can't say I haven't gotten carried away, too.
It's hardly your fault when anyone, including myself, behaves less than well on a thread you started with the best of intentions.

 

[Lifesaver]

None of us can produce scientic proof of our religious beliefs; science dosn't speak to this vital area of our lives. In that sense no religious belief is not based on "reality".

We can't produce scientific proof. But to ground oneself in reason, to have a faith that is consistent with the observable reality of the world and with the historical accounts available is already to base our beliefs on reality.

In addition, I believe your statement that pagans "make up religion as though it were a game" is untrue of the majority, perjorative, and unworthy to be included in debate.

I'm sorry, but I'm yet to see one Neo-Pagan put forward an evidence, an argument or a reason why they believe their pantheon of gods exists.

I've also read in this thread that I'm a "heretic" because I'm a Protestant, but this isn't a Protestant thread, so I saw no reason to take umbrage.
Still, all of us would do well here to show a modicum of respect for each other, don't you agree, Lifesaver?

Catholics and Protestants can't both be right about all religious topics at the same time, for they disagree on a number of them, and there is only one truth.
If you are particularly insulted with the term heresy, I can use other possibly less insulting terms. What I won't do is pretend we both agree in those aspects of Christianity which we do not.

It is so easy in debate threads to cross the line without being aware of it, and I have posts of my own here at CF which I deeply regret. Some of them I returned to within ten minutes of making them to unmake them, only to discover I was too late.

I'll try to be less offensive with regards to persons. But with regards to their beliefs I really don't think I said anything that they have not said about mine. And that is fine, for honesty is fundamental to any discussion. I'll try to use a more polite tone and wording, when possible.

 

[Lifesaver]

Care to discuss this further? I'll go out on a limb and state
you should be made aware that you have very little knowledge concerning
the customs, traditions, and spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans.

Depends on the Native Americans. If those from North America, than my knowledge is indeed very little.
However, I believe I know more about Native American tribes from Brazil.

Still, their particular beliefs are of no importance to this discussion, and I can't see why you are even bringing it up...

Do you disagree that:
a)they were not loving pacifists who lived in communion with nature and cherished freedom
b)they were not bestial savages who liked killing and waging war against everyone else

?

 

[Smilin]

Depends on the Native Americans. If those from North America, than my knowledge is indeed very little.

However, I believe I know more about Native American tribes from Brazil.

Maybe, but why bring up the stereotypes associated with American
Western movies then?

Still, their particular beliefs are of no importance to this discussion, and I can't see why you are even bringing it up...

You made an assertion that I countered.

Do you disagree that:
a)they were not loving pacifists who lived in communion with nature and cherished freedom

I descend from the Cherokee who lived in a structured society of 7 clans,
cherished the Creation and all life within it as well as lived peacefully....
until gold was discovered in Northern Georgia.

b)they were not bestial savages who liked killing and waging war against everyone else

If your homeland was invaded, your brothers and sisters enslaved,
your children kidnapped to be raised by 'civilized' people; If you were
forcefully relocated from your homes, driven further West, and your
main food supply (the Buffalo) was hunted to extinction by your
tormentors; if your family was given polio infested blankets as a 'final'
solution.....

Would you not go to war?

Chickamauga and his followers chose to stand and fight rather
than be removed from their native lands.

Now, don't blame me for countering an original point you made
on the Native Americans.

/thread derail closed...

 

[Plan 9]

We can't produce scientific proof. But to ground oneself in reason, to have a faith that is consistent with the observable reality of the world and with the historical accounts available is already to base our beliefs on reality.

Some pagans have researched for years themselves, and are part of beliefs systems as old as Catholicism, so I can't help but feel that there is an ethnocentric quality to a sweeping statement like the one above.

I'm sorry, but I'm yet to see one Neo-Pagan put forward an evidence, an argument or a reason why they believe their pantheon of gods exists.

First of all, I won't use the term "Neo-Pagan" about a really large and mixed group of people, the majority of which I will never meet.

I've heard evidence, arguments, reasons, but I wanted to hear those for their own sake; not as fodder for debate. Like most Christians here, I suspect most Pagans find it too unpleasant to participate in the virtual bloodbath we call "debate" here at CF.

Catholics and Protestants can't both be right about all religious topics at the same time, for they disagree on a number of them, and there is only one truth.
If you are particularly insulted with the term heresy, I can use other possibly less insulting terms. What I won't do is pretend we both agree in those aspects of Christianity which we do not.

I don't want to pretend anything, bu that is an insulting term, and I think you're aware of that. Certainly when I ask questions in OBOB, and I do so fairly frequently, I am treated with the utmost kindness and courtesy, and it's in OBOB that the term "heretic" in its strictest theological sense could be applied to me without rancor on anyones' part, including myself.

I'll try to be less offensive with regards to persons. But with regards to their beliefs I really don't think I said anything that they have not said about mine. And that is fine, for honesty is fundamental to any discussion. I'll try to use a more polite tone and wording, when possible.

I think you should try very hard to be less offensive. If you don't, a thread of real value to the rest of us, however little you may care about it, or us, will be closed. You can be both tactful without sacrificing honesty.
This was never intended to be a debate thread. It was meant to be a discussion thread only; both the opening post and the horrified reaction of the OP when the thread was temporarily closed show that.

 

[Lifesaver]

Maybe, but why bring up the stereotypes associated with American
Western movies then?
You made an assertion that I countered.
I descend from the Cherokee who lived in a structured society of 7 clans,
cherished the Creation and all life within it as well as lived peacefully....
until gold was discovered in Northern Georgia.
If your homeland was invaded, your brothers and sisters enslaved,
your children kidnapped to be raised by 'civilized' people; If you were
forcefully relocated from your homes, driven further West, and your
main food supply (the Buffalo) was hunted to extinction by your
tormentors; if your family was given polio infested blankets as a 'final'
solution.....
Would you not go to war?
Chickamauga and his followers chose to stand and fight rather
than be removed from their native lands.
Now, don't blame me for countering an original point you made
on the Native Americans.

It is very understandable that you want to defend the stance of your ancestors, and like I said the first time I mentioned Native Americans, the massacre they suffered was wrong and completely anti-Christian. However, it is not fair to paint them in the idylic colours so often associated with them nowadays.
That's all. I never defended the way the colonization took place; never defended the slaughter and slavery of indians. I just urge you not to think of them in the ideal way natives from all over the world are seen by so many people today.