Wicca

[Smilin]

Smilin's a good example: his people can't turn back time and be just what they were. The Cherokee still have their native tongue, so I do believe they can adapt and won't lose what's best in their culture. As a matter of fact, the link Smilin' gave on another thread shows an area near where I live, and it's some of the most beautiful country in our state. It made me wonder if you can convert to Cherokee.

"There is no such thing as 'part-Cherokee.' Either you're Cherokee or you're not. It isn't the quantity of Cherokee blood in your veins that is important, but the quality of it . . . your pride in it. I have seen full-bloods who have virtually no idea of the great legacy entrusted to their care. Yet, I have seen people with as little as 1/500th blood quantum who inspire the spirits of their ancestors because they make being Cherokee a proud part of a their everyday life." - Jim Pell: Principal Chief of the North Alabama Cherokee Tribe

 

[Smilin]

Are you suggesting neopagans aren’t real pagans?!

You do realize the term 'pagan' is a Christian title meant to lump all others
under one big umbrella. To some, it's actually an insulting title.

 

[Lifesaver]

They also placed equal or even greater value on their women as on their men! That happened to be one of the 'concerns' of the Christian settlers, they were afraid their women would get bad ideas of equality and freedom.

If it was greater, it was not equality, but feminism, right?

As for the Christian settlers I can't say anything.

 

[Lifesaver]

Can someone with knowledge on Cherokee culture possibly read this and tell me if it is true?
http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/justice.htm

 

[Caedmon]

I'll try to be less offensive with regards to persons. But with regards to their beliefs I really don't think I said anything that they have not said about mine. And that is fine, for honesty is fundamental to any discussion. I'll try to use a more polite tone and wording, when possible.

Thank you for those statements, although "when possible" really should be "always."

 

[transientlife]

If it was greater, it was not equality, but feminism, right?

Eh, not necessarily, Lifesaver. As with everything else there are variances of feminism. Sure, some feminists probably want superiority...but I think the majority are for actual true equality.

 

[gaijin178]

Eh, not necessarily, Lifesaver. As with everything else there are variances of feminism. Sure, some feminists probably want superiority...but I think the majority are for actual true equality.

I'm a straight male and I still call myself a modern feminist....we just want equality for all.

 

[Caedmon]

War was a constant reality in the Native American life, as were high infant mortality, poor education (in Western standards) and a life completely defined for the individual from the day of their birth.

You've just described at least half of the world's cultures, past and present.

Basically, if we leave aside the particularities of deities, language and other cultural traits, they were similar to the peoples of the whole American continent.

If you take the cultural traits away from humans, you can probably compare one human group to any other human group in existence. Unless, of course, "racial" qualities determine human behavior, intelligence, etc. But that's a flawed, not to mention dangerous, idea.

The Southern Illinois University speaks of ritual bleeding:

Just to make it clear: I've listed some of the things I consider negative about that indian nation. That is not the whole of my view about them.

The Hebrews also practiced ritual bleeding for centuries, which they still practice today: "circumcision." To a lesser degree, ritual bleeding has also been witnessed within the Catholic Church, even into the 20th century, within holy people such as Padre Pio and Therese Neumann: "stigmata." And there are other examples of ritual bleeding in other cultures around the world, past and present. Why? Because blood is the life force (anima), associated with the heart (or other seat of the emotions), and its color is often archetypally associated with love, passion, violence, fire, fertility, fortune, birth, life, and death, just to mention a few. These things make blood a particularly powerful image, so much so, that many cultures around the world have believed that blood must be shed for purification or for the atonement of transgression.

 

[Caedmon]

I quickly scanned that very brief summary. Personally,
if I were the professor grading that paper, the student
would have gotten a C at best. If you wish to delve
further into the history of the Cherokee, you can follow
my website link. That very poorly written summary wasn't
focused on any specific ritual, AND lacked details.

Additionally, the information on the cleansing rituals
weren't accurate. I take the C back, the writer
gets an F for inaccuracies.

If one of my professors or I graded that paper, it would get a D or an F. I'm hard-pressed to find a thesis, and there are no citations. It also fails the 3CD test: clarity, concreteness, conciseness, diction.

 

[Lifesaver]

If you take the cultural traits away from humans, you can probably compare one human group to any other human group in existence. Unless, of course, "racial" qualities determine human behavior, intelligence, etc. But that's a flawed, not to mention dangerous, idea.

Socio-political characteristics of a society, my friend. This is what is left.

The Hebrews also practiced ritual bleeding for centuries, which they still practice today: "circumcision." To a lesser degree, ritual bleeding has also been witnessed within the Catholic Church, even into the 20th century, within holy people such as Padre Pio and Therese Neumann: "stigmata." And there are other examples of ritual bleeding in other cultures around the world, past and present. Why? Because blood is the life force (anima), associated with the heart (or other seat of the emotions), and its color is often archetypally associated with love, passion, violence, fire, fertility, fortune, birth, life, and death, just to mention a few. These things make blood a particularly powerful image, so much so, that many cultures around the world have believed that blood must be shed for purification or for the atonement of transgression.

Stigmata is something that happens to someone who is very saintly; it is not a ritual of bleeding.

Are you suggesting that the Cherokee religion has anything to do with Christianity, other than affirming the existence of something metaphysical and greater than man?
"Anima"... doesn't that come from Jungian psychology, does it?

 

[Plan 9]

Socio-political characteristics of a society, my friend. This is what is left.

Untrue. Socico-political characteristics are also cultural in nature. All that's left is the cognitive functioning of our brains. For instance, I am told that we all tend to classify the birds in our enviorments in pretty much the same way.

Stigmata is something that happens to someone who is very saintly; it is not a ritual of bleeding.

It's viewed as having a ritual nature to others; it's part of that "saintliness" the stigmata confer on the individual, who may not himself feel in the least "saintly". After all, God is believed to do the bloodletting himself, is he not?

Are you suggesting that the Cherokee religion has anything to do with Christianity,

other than affirming the existence of something metaphysical and greater than man?

"Other than?" this affirmation seems vital to me.

"Anima"... doesn't that come from Jungian psychology, does it?

I think I can answer that one. although Caed may possibly be using it in another sense, it certainly does.
Were you thinking of trying to refute Jungian pschology? This discussion gets more interesting all the time.

 

[Plan 9]

"There is no such thing as 'part-Cherokee.' Either you're Cherokee or you're not. It isn't the quantity of Cherokee blood in your veins that is important, but the quality of it . . . your pride in it. I have seen full-bloods who have virtually no idea of the great legacy entrusted to their care. Yet, I have seen people with as little as 1/500th blood quantum who inspire the spirits of their ancestors because they make being Cherokee a proud part of a their everyday life." - Jim Pell: Principal Chief of the North Alabama Cherokee Tribe

What a beautiful quote, Smilin! When I can move in?
It's quite possible I have some Cherokee in my background, so I wish that sort of DNA testing were less expensive. I inherited what a half-Cherokee friend of mine says is a Cherokee dentation pattern, and brought it up myself when I first saw her picture, wanting to know what she was doing with "our" teeth. I can easily see that pattern in my Welsh great-Grandfather, who was married to my Osage great-grandmother (her teeth do not show that pattern).
In addition, my Irish father hails from the Blue Ridge mountains of VA, and as I'm sure you know, the Cherokee of that area retreated to those very mountains to live there in greater safety.
I wonder how many of us Americans who believe ourselves to be of 'pure' Eroupean descent actually are, and love to require DNA testing for every Klan member and every neo-Nazi in this country. Wouldn't that be fun, everyone?

 

[SquareC]

I wonder how many of us Americans who believe ourselves to be of 'pure' Eroupean descent actually are, and love to require DNA testing for every Klan member and every neo-Nazi in this country. Wouldn't that be fun, everyone?

And it would also be hilarious to see their faces when they got the results! I know I have a varied multi-cultural heritage, so being prejudiced would be hating myself.....

 

[Smilin]

Can someone with knowledge on Cherokee culture possibly read this and tell me if it is true?
http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/justice.htm

There are flaws in that writing (scalping for example), as well as a noticeable Christian influence. Perhaps another thread to discuss it if you desire

 

[Smilin]

Are you suggesting that the Cherokee religion has anything to do with Christianity, other than affirming the existence of something metaphysical and greater than man?

Very good question. There is another thread here, Native American Spirituality
and the comparisons and contrasts with Christianity. You might browse
it. We've discussed that aspect in detail. If you can't find it, let me know
and I'll bump it for you.

"Ho! Mitakuye Oyasin. Ea Nigada Qusdi Idadadvhn" Cherokee - "We Are All Related. All my relations in Creation" Cherokee

 

[Plan 9]

And it would also be hilarious to see their faces when they got the results!

YES! That would be the best part! Almost every American is sure to have had ancestor who didn't see this as vitally important as they do, so I wonder just how many would be left? We'd make the results a matter of public record, of course, just as Hitler did. Fair's fair, right?

I know I have a varied multi-cultural heritage, so being prejudiced would be hating myself.....

It would put them in a pretty uncomfortable personal situation, wouldn't it? LOL
I do try to see others' points of view, even when it's an unpleasant feeling, but I can find no logic in racism whatsoever. I say, lets have them hate themselves, if they need to hate someone that much.

I have two purebred dogs and a mixed breed dog. They're equally beautiful, and they're equally healthy, but only because I don't breed for looks. Otherwise, my mixed breed would be most likely to be healthiest, due to hybrid vigour. It makes no sense to look down on one of my dogs as inferior; all three of them are domestic canines. How could it possibly be sensible to judge people in this manner? It would be like making my whippet-Dalmatian sleep outside in the cold, while the two whippets are indoors.

I just don't get it, and I've noticed that at least one of the racists in my neighborhood doesn't like being one at all; he pretends so he won't lose his good ole boy friends he grew up with, but experience has taught him something far different that what he learned growing up, and put him in a bind. He hired a black guy to work in his pawn shop. He's always trying to come up with some excuse when his pals stop by, but he did that because he wanted to. I kind of admire him; my parents taught me right, so what's easy for me is hard for him.

 

[Caedmon]

Untrue. Socico-political characteristics are also cultural in nature. All that's left is the cognitive functioning of our brains. For instance, I am told that we all tend to classify the birds in our enviorments in pretty much the same way.

Anything dealing with the social behavior of humans has some culture in it.

I think I can answer that one. although Caed may possibly be using it in another sense, it certainly does.
Were you thinking of trying to refute Jungian pschology? This discussion gets more interesting all the time.

Hahaha... that's what I thought too. I guess it doesn't help that I use psychoanalysis in my literary studies, does it? Yes, "anima" is used in Jungian psychoanalytical theory. "Anima" is the sum of a man's feminine qualities, psychoanalytically speaking of course. But I wasn't speaking in that manner. I was refering to "anima" as "soul," eg. the Anima Christi (Soul of Christ) prayer. Although the archetypal images I mentioned are psychoanalytic in nature. *sigh* More polylogical discourse...

 

[Caedmon]

It would put them in a pretty uncomfortable personal situation, wouldn't it? LOL
I do try to see others' points of view, even when it's an unpleasant feeling, but I can find no logic in racism whatsoever. I say, lets have them hate themselves, if they need to hate someone that much.

I have two purebred dogs and a mixed breed dog. They're equally beautiful, and they're equally healthy, but only because I don't breed for looks. Otherwise, my mixed breed would be most likely to be healthiest, due to hybrid vigour. It makes no sense to look down on one of my dogs as inferior; all three of them are domestic canines. How could it possibly be sensible to judge people in this manner? It would be like making my whippet-Dalmatian sleep outside in the cold, while the two whippets are indoors.

I just don't get it, and I've noticed that at least one of the racists in my neighborhood doesn't like being one at all; he pretends so he won't lose his good ole boy friends he grew up with, but experience has taught him something far different that what he learned growing up, and put him in a bind. He hired a black guy to work in his pawn shop. He's always trying to come up with some excuse when his pals stop by, but he did that because he wanted to. I kind of admire him; my parents taught me right, so what's easy for me is hard for him.

I find that a lot of "racism" is economically motivated. People want an excuse why the "new guys" shouldn't be allowed to "cut in on their jobs," and "race" and other cultural "differences" are quite convenient.

We have a lot of racism where we live, but the funny thing is, I've seen lots of interracial, black-white couples. I have as yet not been able to fully comprehend this. All I can come up with is that the true racists are realizing that their favorite hobby is not in vogue like it used to be, so they keep it inside or mumble it to themselves until they get with their good ol' boys, and then they can blurt it out loud.

But I think that hate in general is a problem. I'm going to rant a bit, if you don't mind. The other day I was looking at some "feminine" soap brands in a store, and this old white guy walks past me, reaches down, grabs a six-pack of Gold Dial soap bars, and he mumbles, "Gold Dial, homo." I was completely and utterly shocked and insulted, (1) because he assumed that I was homosexual, which I am not, and (2) because he would use a pejorative term like that against another human being, which is just mean and hateful. It took me a few seconds to even put together what he had said: "ho... mo...? ho, mo? HO-MO?!!!" I could not believe it. I didn't think that such blatant hatred still existed, but apparently it does.

 

[Rae]

Ooo! Am I a real Pagan or a fake Pagan? Somebody tell me!

 

[ACougar]

Don't ask me, ask the Gods.

Ooo! Am I a real Pagan or a fake Pagan? Somebody tell me!