Why?

[Reformationist]

Actually this cannot be true, which is Don's/Calvin's point. God has to do the heart change, we cannot, because by our nature we are against God. Only He can change our hearts towards Him. Therefor, technically He has to force salvation or it would have never been. We cannot accept diddly until God opens our hearts to receive the 'invite' so-to-speak.

JS, since I am reformed I understand what you're saying but you leave yourself open to a wide variety of interpretations here. Let me just clarify that the reformed view is not that Jehovah crushes man's obstinate will like a giant steamroller. God's irresistable electing grace is not grounded in His omnipotence, although it could be if the Lord so willed, but, rather, in His gift of life known as regeneration. Since all dead human spirits are drawn irresistibly to Satan, the god of the dead, and all living human spirits are drawn irresistibly to Jehovah, the God of the living, our Lord simply gives His chosen ones the Spirit of life. The moment He does so their spiritual polarity is changed. Where they were once "dead in trespasses and sins" and oriented to the devil, now they are made "alive in Christ Jesus" and oriented to God.

God bless,
Don

 

[Benedicta00]

This is a bit misleading as to the actual beliefs of your church. Catholics acknowledge that man is able to make the choice because of God's grace. You're saying that they do make that choice because of God's grace. This cannot be in line with your church's teachings because they also teach that all men receive that grace. If God's grace does cause man to make that choice and all men receive that grace then all men would love God. You can't get different results with the same causal agent. Are you just saying that man is able to make the choice to love God?

Don,

I know this was for Michelle but I am going to answer. She can add something more if she feels so inclined to do so.

Our nature did not die in the fall. God does not need to regenerate us, bring us back to life in order for us to choose Him. God writes the natural law in everyone's heart, do you agree?

Man does have reasoning capabilities able enough to know that there is a God. Knowing that there is a God is not saying the person accepts redemption and is sorry for his sins.

‘God so loved the world’, means to me that before the fall of man, He saw creation as good. Do you agree that before men fell from grace that all men were created to be with God? There were no souls he loved and hated before the fall; he so loved the world. So he sent Christ to save the world, not all men but mankind- the species.

The Holy Spirit was sent to us when Christ ascended into heaven. Man has the natural law in his heart, he knows what is right and wrong as much as he is able to and the Holy Spirit who was sent to convict man of his sin convicts all men of their sin.

Those who have reason, they will not have an excuse. The Holy Spirit convicts who is able to reason that he has sin and is in need of repentance and the man has the choice to repent or to close himself up in his sin which then God will harden his heart when he does that unto death.

The man who is in mortal sin unto death (commits blasphemy against the Spirit) does not have God's grace on him as you say. God leaves him dead, he hates the worker of iniquity.

The man, who may be in mortal sin but not unto death, God will give the actual graces the man will need in order to repent.

God's prevent is grace is always on a man and is the reason a man is able to accept the grace of justification when the Holy Spirits convicts him of his sin. Man was made with the ability to chose between two opposites as much as he is able to and God allows his choice, God hardens his heart against him.


The reason why man has this power to choose is for the same reason why Adam had it. God wanted mankind to be his people by freely loving him, for himself, not for his gifts. He allowed man to fall in order to bring man to this freedom.

Our falling from grace and being born cut off from Him was for our greater good, Jesus Christ. If we did not sin then there would be no Christ, we would then never know the gift we have in God, the gift we have in being saved.

Do you understand what I am saying?

 

[Benedicta00]

Actually this cannot be true, which is Don's/Calvin's point. God has to do the heart change, we cannot, because by our nature we are against God. Only He can change our hearts towards Him. Therefor, technically He has to force salvation or it would have never been. We cannot accept diddly until God opens our hearts to receive the 'invite' so-to-speak.

The way I see it, is that we are not dead in our nature, only wounded. So we do have the ability with God’s inspiration of course to open our hearts to Him. His help is the councilor, the Holy Spirit is Him inspiring us to open our hearts to Him. If we don’t then our hearts are closed off and then they are dead, God hardens the heart. I don’t think the bible is clear that the hardening of heart is due to the fall and not do to us choosing to be closed off to the Holy Spirit who Christ sent.

 

[Benedicta00]

Thanks Michelle, for taking the time to at least give it a go.

I agree this whole thing gets down right mind-boggling.

However, I can see the point that God will not accept an unrepentant heart. This is the paradox our human minds end up arguing over and dwelling on. He won't accept an unrepentant heart, and yet only He can change our hearts so that they are capable of being repentant. No wonder we go in circles

I think we all need to accept that there is only so much we can know about this. Christ told St. Augustan that the understanding of the Trinity will not fit in his brain to stop trying to get it in there.

Which is still debated today as to what exactly sin against the Holy Spirit is. I know what the RCC teaches, but I'm not sure that's exactly right. For example, Jesus teaches that we are to forgive 70 times 7. IOW, forgive as many times as you're wronged. Yet, He doesn't? Of course, He has to. He cannot disobey His own commands. Therefor if sinning against the HS is simply turning down the invitation or telling God, you don't want His salvation, and one realizes their mistake later, where is the forgiveness then?

But unto death how can he forgive if man still sees he has no need for repentance and salvation? I think it also important to mention that this is all in theory, no one knows God's mercy in terms of amount, who will give his graces to repent and who he will not at the moment of death. I mean if you faced Christ and he convicted you of your sins and you had the mental capability to know you offended Him and you know now your life is over, are you really going to remain so obstinate that you wouldn’t ask, forgive me? But on the other hand, sin darkens the intellect, so we could be so blind from handing ourselves over to sin again and again that the evil the sin brought to our soul has taken completely over and so when looking at God, we would not want to be anywhere near goodness.

These are just my own ramblings; there is much food for thought in this area of our faith to feast on.

Again, this sounds good, but not according to real-world examples. I know non-believers that do *good*. Not just by my standards but by the standards in the Bible. Yet they do not do it in Jesus' name, nor do they give Him the glory. Yet, they do completely selfless acts of giving and other times do something that is a sin. So a man can do both and both can exist in a man.

I agree. To me doing good is a intellectual choice that God allows. Atheists think they can be good on their own and obviously they can. They intellectual chose what is right from a purely human perspective and that is why there are many "good" atheist who live decent lives but Christians know that even the good we do fails in the eyes of God. We know that good is simply not enough, that we need redemption, forgiveness.

I understand that God may at some point know that a man will not return to Him, so He puts up a veil so that man is blinded and His heart is hardened. And I may be misunderstanding you, but a man can have good in his heart and still make bad decisions, simply by life experiences.

I agree. I think as long as man has a breath on his body, there is always hope from our point of view but from the point of view of the eternal, God knows. That is all I can say.

But what makes a man chosen, and how does he have hope in Christ and know he will be saved if there is always a church or another believer telling them different things and pointing to different scriptures with their "proofs" of when a man is saved? Personally, I have that hope that I will be and therefor have peace in my heart and can sleep at night knowing I have a merciful and graceful God that love me. It is always chruches and other 'believers' that see this in a person and try to strip it from them like a pack of wolves because they do not have that peace and are jealous. So they try to make them doubt that Jesus saved them as well. What are these people thinking? If this whole world had the hope of Christ's blood redeeming them, imaging what world it would be.

Going on what the Church says, that the faculties of our soul is our mind, intellect and will, I believe we have the intellectual choice, because God writes the natural law in all our hearts to chose to will our salvation because the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin. Had Christ not died, we would have no such conviction, we would remain in sin, working like the Jews, trying to earn salvation but because Christ atoned for all the sins of the world, God send His Spirit to convict us of our sins and we have the intellect to chose to accept that.

 

[Reformationist]

Our nature did not die in the fall.

I am not aware that I said our nature was dead. I believe our nature was corrupted. As to whether I said it died, if I did say that, then what I mean is that the level of depravity man came to posess after the Fall was so complete that it is a form of death in that man is wholly incapable, in that unregenerate state, of supplying the positive volition to submit to God in obedience and faithfully believe in His Word.

God does not need to regenerate us, bring us back to life in order for us to choose Him.

Scripture says differently.

God writes the natural law in everyone's heart, do you agree?

That depends on what you think the "natural law" is. Are you asking if I believe that God's attributes are clearly seen in creation? Of course. Do I believe that that alone is sufficient to cause man to submit? Obviously not.

Man does have reasoning capabilities able enough to know that there is a God. Knowing that there is a God is not saying the person accepts redemption and is sorry for his sins.

Of course not. In fact, the biblical account of man's natural response to the revelation of God's Truth is to "not glorify Him as God, nor be thankful."

‘God so loved the world’, means to me that before the fall of man, He saw creation as good.

Good in what way?

Do you agree that before men fell from grace that all men were created to be with God?

I believe that the Plan of God has never changed. It always included the Fall as well as the atoning death and resurrection of Christ.

There were no souls he loved and hated before the fall; he so loved the world. So he sent Christ to save the world, not all men but mankind- the species.

Are you saying that God's purpose in sending His Son was to save no one in particular, but only those who exercise their free will and accept His offer of eternal life? Or do you believe His purpose in sending His Son to be the salvation of mankind as a whole?

The Holy Spirit was sent to us when Christ ascended into heaven. Man has the natural law in his heart, he knows what is right and wrong as much as he is able to and the Holy Spirit who was sent to convict man of his sin convicts all men of their sin.

So the purpose for which the Holy Spirit came to ALL men is to convince them of their sinfulness and need for a Savior?

The Holy Spirit convicts who is able to reason that he has sin and is in need of repentance and the man has the choice to repent or to close himself up in his sin which then God will harden his heart when he does that unto death.

So why does anyone choose one way or the other if everyone is given the same measure of grace?

The man who is in mortal sin unto death (commits blasphemy against the Spirit) does not have God's grace on him as you say. God leaves him dead, he hates the worker of iniquity.

So now you're saying that there ARE people that God hates? Also, is this person now NOT free to repent? Did they lose their free will because they committed the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

The man, who may be in mortal sin but not unto death, God will give the actual graces the man will need in order to repent.

Do those "actual graces" actually cause the man to repent or is man still free to reject the "actual graces?"

God's prevent is grace is always on a man and is the reason a man is able to accept the grace of justification when the Holy Spirits convicts him of his sin. Man was made with the ability to chose between two opposites as much as he is able to and God allows his choice, God hardens his heart against him.

So what is the causal agent in man willing to choose God over satan? Is it man's will or is it God's grace?

The reason why man has this power to choose is for the same reason why Adam had it. God wanted mankind to be his people by freely loving him, for himself, not for his gifts. He allowed man to fall in order to bring man to this freedom.

God created Adam with only a desire (I did not say ability) to serve God in obedience. That's how Adam was created. It was Adam's untainted nature that caused Adam to freely love God. Man lost that in the Fall. Upon the Fall man's will was corrupted to the point that he wanted only to rebel against God's Law.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Michelle, I honestly don't have a clue how you've come to the conclusions you have about Scripture. I went to churches that professed man's free will for quite some time before I became reformed. I never felt that those churches glorified God and let Him be God. Their entire system of beliefs was built around the glory of man. This is basically how I see your beliefs. They are all about how the Creator either created man to be stronger than He, which makes no sense, or He willed to be impotent in bringing His own plan to perfect completion in the face of His creation's will. Either way, it is the creation that is glorified, not God. I understand that God has seen fit to have you believe this so I will not question Him, though I will certainly pray that He opens your eyes.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

His help is the councilor, the Holy Spirit is Him inspiring us to open our hearts to Him. If we don?t then our hearts are closed off and then they are dead, God hardens the heart.

Going by this it's clear that death, in your opinion, is the result of closing off your heart. What is the result of opening our hearts to Him?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Had Christ not died, we would have no such conviction, we would remain in sin, working like the Jews, trying to earn salvation but because Christ atoned for all the sins of the world

Ironic...

God send His Spirit to convict us of our sins and we have the intellect to chose to accept that.

So accepting the Truth of Christ even unto salvation is an intellectual assent we partake of?

And you claim not to be works based. You silly girl...

 

[Benedicta00]

Don.

I'm giving up for now. No hard feelings. I am getting the distinct impression that you are not really interested in learning about one another's beliefs but you seek our view so you can debate it and I do not share that same desire.

I am not interested in debating you about whether or not I am right or wrong, and I am worn out from defending all the falsehoods, and misconceptions. All I can leave you with is, we don't believe even so much as half the stuff you think we do.

Either you simply can not understand what we try to explain or you don't want to but in either case, you are not picking up what we are putting down here so I think it best to end this before we both break our witness here.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result and we are just going around in circles thinking something is going to change and what needs to change is us, so I will break this cycle, no hard feelings.

God bless you too, Don.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I understand that God has seen fit to have you believe this so I will not question Him, though I will certainly pray that He opens your eyes.

God bless

Why would pray that He opens her eyes? Your prayers aren't really going to change anything regarding that matter, are they?

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

All Jesus is saying is that it was by God's design that they "not know what was in store for them." It wasn't just a quirk of fate. All Jesus is doing is reinforcing the position that it is by God's irresistable, sovereign intercession that man comes to a saving knowledge of his Creator. If it was just an issue of man being completely free to "make a decision for Christ" then it would be highly probably that at least one person would have done so.

So Jesus was not urging each and every one of them to repent, he was just assuming that His message would fall on certain ears in the crowds (the elect) and the rest wouldn't repent anyway?

I'm saying that man, after the Fall, is dead to the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. The carnal mind is unable to grasp the Truth of God and, in fact, considers it foolishness. Ironically, it is in this state of carnality that Catholics say that man comes to a saving knowledge of God by the power of their own positive volition.

I believe that it requires the Grace of God to make a choice to accept Him.

He requires cooperation from the creation to institute His divine plan of salvation?

Yes. Not because He has to , but because that is what He makes clear in his word. I don't believe the Bible focuses mainly on His soverienity. I believe the Bible also focuses on the responsibility of man. You disagree, because the you say that the Scriptures which speak of responsiblity do not apply to salvation but rather to growing as a Christian, if I understand you correctly. I disagree.

Do you believe that God has sovereignly willed to be impotent in the face of man's will?

No. That is what you contrue, though.

Just to clarify, I do believe that man cooperates in the plan of God. I just believe his cooperation is a direct result of God's irresistable grace. God gives or withholds His grace to accomplish His Will and God's immutable Will is never thwarted, certainly not by His creation.

Cooperates with irresistable grace? Isn't that a contradiction in terms? If something is irresistable, there is no choice in the cooperation.

This is a bit misleading as to the actual beliefs of your church. Catholics acknowledge that man is able to make the choice because of God's grace. You're saying that they do make that choice because of God's grace. This cannot be in line with your church's teachings because they also teach that all men receive that grace. If God's grace does cause man to make that choice and all men receive that grace then all men would love God. You can't get different results with the same causal agent. Are you just saying that man is able to make the choice to love God?

I have no idea what you mean by this.

This is one of the things that is most difficult for me to swallow. "Grace" directly implies a lack of merit yet you are saying that one remains in that state because of their abiding by God's Law, which would actually imply meriting salvation. Did I misunderstand?

Yes you misunderstand if you think I am adhering to a works based salvation belief. That is to say, if not for the grace of God we would not have the desire to do His work, but it is clear all over the Bible that the things we do wil be taken into account on that day.

I can see that this discussion is really going to end up making me dizzy...so I'll just bow out now and take care...see you around.

Michelle

 

[Rainbow.]

Well, i often wonder why God doesn't throw Satan into the bowels of hell, and keep all evil in there with him! But at the end of the day, none of would learn anything without all the negative things in the world.We would be like programmed beings with no soul.The other day, i accepted that i will never understand so many things of this world.This is just another of my questions in my note pad to ask God when i meet him! lol

 

[JesusServant]

Thanks Michelle, Don and again, Michelle and everyone for contributing to this thread and being polite and helpful in expressing your views through Scripture and life experiences. Being a part of this has been enjoyable and helpful.

God bless,

Steve

 

[Reformationist]

Don.

I'm giving up for now. No hard feelings. I am getting the distinct impression that you are not really interested in learning about one another's beliefs but you seek our view so you can debate it and I do not share that same desire.

I am not interested in debating you about whether or not I am right or wrong, and I am worn out from defending all the falsehoods, and misconceptions. All I can leave you with is, we don't believe even so much as half the stuff you think we do.

Either you simply can not understand what we try to explain or you don't want to but in either case, you are not picking up what we are putting down here so I think it best to end this before we both break our witness here.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result and we are just going around in circles thinking something is going to change and what needs to change is us, so I will break this cycle, no hard feelings.

God bless you too, Don.

Okay. Well, I appreciate you candor. Just for the record, I am honestly curious about your beliefs, though not for the reason you believe. I do not seek to understand your beliefs so that I may change yours nor do I desire mine to change. I do think your beliefs are very man centered so I hold no illusions that you will ever believe as I do, apart from God's direct intervention. I hold no ill will towards you or your church and I hope that you can honestly believe that. I am not opposed to debate but I will acknowledge that little is to be gained by debate between you and I. You are already firmly entrenched in your system of beliefs, as am I. My point in these debates is not to change your views but rather to engage in discussion about a topic that we both obviously hold so dear.

My apologies for your frustration. Though, I will say that if either of us were disscussing these matters with only the desire that the other see where we are coming from then our own discomfort should mean little. Maybe I need to reevaluate my own motive.

God bless,
Don

 

[Reformationist]

Why would pray that He opens her eyes?

Because I feel that what I believe is the most God glorifying view of the Gospel that man has ever known and I feel that others could benefit from seeing God from that perspective.

Your prayers aren't really going to change anything regarding that matter, are they?

Michelle

I don't believe that they will change God's mind about things, if that's what you mean. However, to say they aren't going to change anything is more than I can readily acknowledge. If nothing else, they may change my perception of God's omnipotence and my impotence to bring about His Truth. I'm sure that would be a change for the better. Additionally, while my prayers for her will not change God's immutable plan, it may help me to love Michelle in a more godly way and overcome my weakness of always desiring others to see things my way. I am a selfish person, as sad a thing as that is to admit. God uses many means, not the least of which is prayer, to help us see and overcome our sinfulness.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay. Well, I appreciate you candor. Just for the record, I am honestly curious about your beliefs, though not for the reason you believe. I do not seek to understand your beliefs so that I may change yours nor do I desire mine to change. I do think your beliefs are very man centered so I hold no illusions that you will ever believe as I do, apart from God's direct intervention. I hold no ill will towards you or your church and I hope that you can honestly believe that. I am not opposed to debate but I will acknowledge that little is to be gained by debate between you and I. You are already firmly entrenched in your system of beliefs, as am I. My point in these debates is not to change your views but rather to engage in discussion about a topic that we both obviously hold so dear.

My apologies for your frustration. Though, I will say that if either of us were disscussing these matters with only the desire that the other see where we are coming from then our own discomfort should mean little. Maybe I need to reevaluate my own motive.

God bless,
Don

Don,

Why do you want to learn about Catholic beliefs?

I mean I am confused because here you say you want to learn and in the next sentence you say your mind is made up, we are man centered.

Well, part of learning the Catholic belief is learning what we actually believe, that we are not man centered, that is just your perception that you assume we are, based on what your view of God centered worship is.

So I can’t see how you are going to learn when you hold on to the falsehoods that are more opinion than fact. Go to one Mass and pay close attention to the words of the liturgy and come back and tell me who do we center our worship around.

 

[Reformationist]

So Jesus was not urging each and every one of them to repent, he was just assuming that His message would fall on certain ears in the crowds (the elect) and the rest wouldn't repent anyway?

I don't think Jesus assumed anything. I think Jesus' understanding that the Will of the Father would ALWAYS be accomplished, despite unregenerate man's obstinancy.

I believe that it requires the Grace of God to make a choice to accept Him.

Michelle, I understand that you probably feel that this is "giving God the glory" for man's choice but if you look at the ways in which Catholic Christians acknowledge God's role you'll undoubtedly see a more pacifistic portrayal of the Almighty. In your simple effort to acknowledge man's weakness and God's graciousness it seems as if the target of your focus remains, unfortunately, on man's response rather than the efficacy of God's grace. You acknowledge that man is incapable of the choice unless God gives him the grace to do so. IOW, man is NOT free to accept God apart from God's intervention. All of that, in my opinion, is biblically accurate as well as glorifying to God. Then, there is a radical departure from putting God at the center of the equation when you insinuate that though man is incapable apart from the grace God gives, this grace is not always efficient in accomplishing the purpose for which God gives it. The definitive catalyst is not whether God gives the grace. On the contrary, according to you and your fellow Catholics God gives this grace to all without exception. The definable difference in whether or not God accomplishes His Will in the life of the recipient of His grace is not the Will of the Almighty, but rather the will of the creation. God, according to you, sends His grace indiscriminately but the potency of that grace is determined by whether the creation yields. That, most definitely, does not glorify God. Even if you say that this was the way God designed things it remains nonsensical. Why would an omnipotent God, whose primary purpose in ALL things that He does is His glory, even extend His grace if He knows it will return to Him void, as it does in the many cases of those who reject the Will of the Creator? That would make God frivolous and arbitrary.

Yes. Not because He has to , but because that is what He makes clear in his word. I don't believe the Bible focuses mainly on His soverienity. I believe the Bible also focuses on the responsibility of man. You disagree, because the you say that the Scriptures which speak of responsiblity do not apply to salvation but rather to growing as a Christian, if I understand you correctly. I disagree.

I don't look at it quite that way. I believe that man must, and does, cooperate with God. I just have a difference of opinion as to WHY man cooperates. I don't see man's cooperation and God's sovereignty as isolated pieces of the puzzle. I see man's cooperation as directly dependant on the indwelling presence of God.

No. That is what you contrue, though.

I believe that it is completely irrational for God to set Himself up to fail. The method that Catholics, and many "free will" advocate Protestants, use to sidestep this is to say that God does not fail in accomplishing His purpose, rather it is man's failure to comply with God. That, to me, is double talk. If God's purpose is for something to come to pass He does what needs to be done to ensure it comes to pass. Scripture clearly says that none can stay His hand.

Cooperates with irresistable grace? Isn't that a contradiction in terms? If something is irresistable, there is no choice in the cooperation.

It's not a contradiction. It isn't irresistable because God forces man to comply. It's irresistable because God changes man's desires and man, by nature, seeks his greatest desire. God, through His monergistic work of regeneration, changes man's spiritual polarity. Where before he only desired to be self seeking, God's work of regeneration creates in man a desire to seek the Lord of the living, God.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

All I meant was that while you acknowledge that God's grace enables man to submit to God it does not ensure it. That places man as the derterminative agent in salvation, thereby glorifying man, not God.

That is to say, if not for the grace of God we would not have the desire to do His work, but it is clear all over the Bible that the things we do wil be taken into account on that day.

I agree that we will have to give account for our works. However, the primary difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is that when God sovereignly graces man by giving him the desire to do His work you believe that man may act contrary to that desire. That, to me, makes no sense. I often act contrary to my desires. I have sinful desires all the time. What you seem to be overlooking is that I avoid giving into those sinful desires because of a greater desire to serve God. If my desire for the temptation ever becomes greater than my desire to obey God, I sin. My point is that man is a desire driven creature. The grace of God gives man the overwhelming desire to obey Him. When God, to fulfill His plan, withholds that grace, man naturally starts to desire the things the things his fallen reason compels him to desire.

All I'm saying is that apart from God's grace we are wretched indeed and that God's grace accomplishes that for which He purposes it.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Because I feel that what I believe is the most God glorifying view of the Gospel that man has ever known and I feel that others could benefit from seeing God from that perspective.


I don't believe that they will change God's mind about things, if that's what you mean. However, to say they aren't going to change anything is more than I can readily acknowledge. If nothing else, they may change my perception of God's omnipotence and my impotence to bring about His Truth. I'm sure that would be a change for the better. Additionally, while my prayers for her will not change God's immutable plan, it may help me to love Michelle in a more godly way and overcome my weakness of always desiring others to see things my way. I am a selfish person, as sad a thing as that is to admit. God uses many means, not the least of which is prayer, to help us see and overcome our sinfulness.

God bless

So praying for me is to benefit you? And you say that Catholics are self centered?? Sorry could not let that one go…it was just too easy.

I pray for you to Don, that the Lord will bless you and keep you.

BTW, I know what you mean, if you pray for something good for another person that is a selfless act and we know selfless acts can change us.

Catholics are not so different, we just take it up a notch and pray for the salvation of others, that God will save them and not let them perish. That is just about the best thing I can think of to pray for.

 

[Reformationist]

So praying for me is to benefit you? And you say that Catholics are self centered?? Sorry could not let that one go…it was just too easy.

Very witty. Nicely done.

I pray for you to Don, that the Lord will bless you and keep you.

Thank you.

Catholics are not so different, we just take it up a notch and pray for the salvation of others, that God will save them and not let them perish. That is just about the best thing I can think of to pray for.

I agree. I think it's a wonderful thing to pray for. I just didn't see the merit in thinking that God does save someone because you prayed for them, nor do I see the merit in believing God doesn't save someone because someone didn't pray for them.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Very witty. Nicely done.


Thank you.


I agree. I think it's a wonderful thing to pray for. I just didn't see the merit in thinking that God does save someone because you prayed for them, nor do I see the merit in believing God doesn't save someone because someone didn't pray for them.

God bless

And here is you greatest area of misunderstanding what Catholics actually believe. Only according to God’s will do we pray. We do not think that we change His will.

I cited for you in OBOB a source of explanation and you said it went over your head. Basically to make it short. God knew our prayers before we were ever created and he knew what we asked for and he uses our prayers in his plan.

He then has mercy on who he wants and he will harden who he wants but he does hear the prayers of the faithful. I can’t explain it any better than that. We just do not put limits on God at all.

If and I say if because it is my personal belief that if you pray for the salvation of a soul, they will have it because the bible says that is God’s desire, and so we are only praying for his will be done, but if he does not save a soul and someone prayed for that soul then he did not save that soul for the sake of bring a greater good. Don’t know what that good will be but God is G9od, who knows his mind?

We even can believe that our prayers for past relatives who have died years before can benefit from our prayers because God is not a time God. He saw our prayers for our grandmother who past and knew our hearts desire is that they will be saved and God could have saved that grandmother based on the prayers of a grandchild for them in the further. Our God is a awesome God indeed. That is all I can say. Time and events do not bind him.

And a soul who willingly chose damnation, God may not have had anyone ask him to spare this soul so again, He has mercy in who He will and he hardens who He will. Our prayers do not dictate to Him. He can save a soul who doesn’t have someone to pray for them because he is using that salvation for some good. You just can’t put Him in a box; all things are possible with Him.

 

[Rafael]

Indeed, omniscience must give God some perspective we don't have. There are a ton of scriptures that tell us of God's sovereignty and authority. We should not question that, but as soon as we become dogmatic and judgmental, withdrawing grace with our limited perspective of presdestination, we sin. God knows something we don't know and we see through the glass darkly at these things best left to God or then we question the good news of the gospel. It is just too tantalizing for man to not try and figure out how God does what He does, and that is fine as long as we don't start doing His job for Him in judgment and lose site of the grace and mercy we are to extend to others. I enjoy the freedom I have in God to imagine how He is able to pull it all off - the Garden scenerio, the creation of evil to contrast and make His light known so He could fellowship with His creation, His omniscience and plan with the lamb slain before the foundation. My imaginations are good towards Him with no intent of rebellion to His word, and if there is any conflict of sovereignty and loving grace that goes on in Christianity, it is in the mind of man and his limited understanding of such power as God has to plan and create a Church of people for Himself.