Why?

[Benedicta00]

He did not create a Church of people for Himself. He raised up the Jewish people so that they may bring salvation to the rest of the world.

God has mercy on whom He wills and he hardens who he wills. This verse has a much larger scope to it than just God picking and choosing who will be saved and who won’t.

He chose us first, we respond and HE, HIM, God, Himself, no one else, but God allows that choice.

 

[Reformationist]

He did not create a Church of people for Himself. He raised up the Jewish people so that they may bring salvation to the rest of the world.

How do they bring salvation to the rest of the world? Also, when you say "the rest of the world" I assume you mean "all parts of the world." You're not saying "the rest of the world" will be saved, are you?

God has mercy on whom He wills and he hardens who he wills. This verse has a much larger scope to it than just God picking and choosing who will be saved and who won?t.

I agree. It's not always about who is saved. Is that what you meant by this?

He chose us first, we respond and HE, HIM, God, Himself, no one else, but God allows that choice.

Okay, but why do some respond by embracing the Gospel and some by rejecting it? You regularly say that God's desire is that ALL are saved, right? What does God do to ensure that His desire of universal salvation comes to pass? Even you, as a created being with no power to ENSURE that your desires are met, take steps to fulfill your desires, right? What does God, the source of ALL power, do to ENSURE that His desires are met?

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Don,

In the liturgy of the Eucharist we pray, "You have gathered a people to yourself so that from the east to the west a perfect offering may be made to the glory of your name."

Christ paid the price for sinners; we offer that up at mass. Sin was paid for and because of it salvation is promised to whom ever will believe.

There is no injustice, Christ paid it all. God is pleased, He can show mercy on who he wills, He can harden whom he wills. Divine justice has been completely satisfied.

A Muslim, a Jew, a who ever, has had his sins atoned for by Christ- Christ died for them and he died for us and salvation is promised to them, salvation is promised to everybody, but it is a gift.

In order for a gift to be a gift, there has to be a receiver or it is not a gift. Salvation is the gift; we are the receiver who has the free will to choose to accept that gift or to ignore it.

God does not have to regenerate someone in order for them to choose Him. He gives the prevenient grace to all souls that is sufficient and it makes a soul capable of accepting the grace of justification but the soul is not forced to choose or made to choose, the soul is free to choose.

Our souls are not born in such a state that we can not respond to Grace. We were not destroyed in the fall, rendered void of any grace, rendered incapable of responding to God with out God’s help.

 

[Reformationist]

There is no injustice, Christ paid it all. God is pleased, He can show mercy on who he wills, He can harden whom he wills. Divine justice has been completely satisfied.

Michelle, with all due respect, what you're saying makes no sense. If divine justice has been COMPLETELY SATISFIED then every single person is going to Heaven. The wrath of God against the sin of man is the reason that people go to hell. It is by His Word that the price for any sin is death. According to you that price has been paid. Therefore, God cannot justifiably condemn anyone for any sin. You act as if the transaction of salvation was made between the Father, the Son and you. It wasn't. It was a covenant of grace established by the Godhead. You were not involved in the decision making, nor were your works involved in the outcome.

You see, when God created man He established a covenant with him. He basically told man that he would have dominion over his environment so long as he obeyed. When man failed God instituted a covenant of grace. This covenant of grace was NOT a "plan B." It was ALWAYS part of God's plan for His creation. The Fall wasn't a probability. It was a sure thing. That's not by accident. It's by design. That covenant went into effect immediately. God said, "The wages of sin are death." The fact that Adam and Eve didn't physically die right away is by the grace of God. That covenant was not a meeting of the minds about what fallen man would do. It was a legal transaction between the Godhead. God's wrath against the sin of man was justified, for God is holy. Man was completely incapable of providing a sacrifice that would appease God. So, God gave His Son. The transaction of atonement was settled between the Godhead. I cannot stress that enough. You weren't involved in any of the decision making, nor were your works. I completely agree that Jesus' death COMPLETELY satisfied the wrath of God, against God's elect. It cannot have satisfied God's wrath against all mankind because it is the wrath of God from which we are saved. It is His wrath against man's sin that ushers in their condemnation. If Jesus satisfied that then they would be in the favor of God. Those in the favor of God go to Heaven.

What do you feel that Jesus' sacrifice saved us from?

A Muslim, a Jew, a who ever, has had his sins atoned for by Christ- Christ died for them and he died for us and salvation is promised to them, salvation is promised to everybody, but it is a gift.

In order for a gift to be a gift, there has to be a receiver or it is not a gift. Salvation is the gift; we are the receiver who has the free will to choose to accept that gift or to ignore it.

Wrong. Salvation is the result of the gift. The gift is the sacrificial atonement, Jesus' death. You are NOT the receiver of the gift. God receives the gift. That's why Jesus' death was a propitiation TO GOD.

God does not have to regenerate someone in order for them to choose Him. He gives the prevenient grace to all souls that is sufficient and it makes a soul capable of accepting the grace of justification but the soul is not forced to choose or made to choose, the soul is free to choose.

Let's see who is glorified in your scenario. God brings all people to a place where they are capable of making a decision. Then, it's on us. Guess what Michelle, if it's on us, it's not glorifying to God. If everyone gets the same grace, as you contend, then it is not God that is the defining difference. It is you. God did nothing for you that He didn't do for someone else, right? Why did you embrace His Truth and others don't? Let me help you out here. If you're saved because you made the choice to be saved by accepting the sacrifice of Christ then it wasn't Christ that is directly responsible for your salvation, it's your choice to accept His sacrifice. Without you making that choice you would not be saved.

Our souls are not born in such a state that we can not respond to Grace. We were not destroyed in the fall, rendered void of any grace, rendered incapable of responding to God with out God’s help.

So said Erasmus, the humanist. Ironically, these are the very words of Jacob Arminius, the man whose views were condemned at Dort as heretical.

Surrounding yourself with some good company.

God bless

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Michelle, with all due respect, what you're saying makes no sense. If divine justice has been COMPLETELY SATISFIED then every single person is going to Heaven.

No. They need to be born again if they are going to be in heaven. How does on become born again?

Wrong. Salvation is the result of the gift. The gift is the sacrificial atonement, Jesus' death. You are NOT the receiver of the gift. God receives the gift. That's why Jesus' death was a propitiation TO GOD.

No, you’re wrong, salvation is the gift.

Jesus’ death was to satisfy divine justice. And it did. Adam’s sin displeased God and Jesus’ sacrifice pleased Him more than Adam’s sin displeased Him. The forgiveness of personal sins comes after we are forgiven original sin.

Let's see who is glorified in your scenario. God brings all people to a place where they are capable of making a decision. Then, it's on us.

The only person ever capable of glorifying God is Christ and He did when he was obedient unto death. His act brought all glory to God. “Through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father forever and ever.”

No it is not on us, it is freely chosen by us. How does God get glorified if a person was not free to choose Him but made to chose Him? How is justice just when a person is only doing according to you what they are made to do, not what they choose to do?

So said Erasmus, the humanist. Ironically, these are the very words of Jacob Arminius, the man whose views were condemned at Dort as heretical.

No I don’t think so. The fall wounded our nature but it did not render it dead. We can respond to grace, but not with out grace of course. God chooses us, we don’t chose Him. He gives us prevenient grace that leads man to conversion. Humans have free will to chose their path and God will premove Him according to His foreknowledge. This is more along the lines of The Dominican or Thomist view.

 

[Reformationist]

No. They need to be born again if they are going to be in heaven.

I'm fine with you saying that one must be reborn to get into Heaven. However, it's a contradiction to say that God is completely satisfied and then acknowledge another condition. Either the satisfaction is complete, which means nothing else is required, or it's not. According to what you're saying, it's not.

How does on become born again?

God monergistically rebirths them by His power while they are still dead in their trespasses and sins and blind to the spiritual things of God.

No, you’re wrong, salvation is the gift.

Okay Michelle. I'll go ahead and break the cycle. Salvation is a gift.

Jesus’ death was to satisfy divine justice. And it did. Adam’s sin displeased God and Jesus’ sacrifice pleased Him more than Adam’s sin displeased Him. The forgiveness of personal sins comes after we are forgiven original sin.

Well, if you believe that all Jesus' death did was satisfy divine justice for original sin then it's no wonder that we disagree on every other point of doctrine.

The only person ever capable of glorifying God is Christ and He did when he was obedient unto death.

I agree.

No it is not on us, it is freely chosen by us. How does God get glorified if a person was not free to choose Him but made to chose Him?

Same old, same old, huh? I don't believe God makes anyone choose Him in the robotic way that you're implying. I believe God changes our spiritual polarity when He regenerates us. Prior to His doing so we were inclined to serve our sin. When He regenerates us He creates in us a desire to serve Him in obedience. If you believe that's "making someone choose Him" then so be it. I understand that you'd rather the decision be yours and I also understand why you'd rather the decision be yours. It all stems from your belief about the effects of the Fall.

How is justice just when a person is only doing according to you what they are made to do, not what they choose to do?

Justice? JUSTICE??!!! Do you honestly want God to give you justice for your treasonous acts against Him?

No I don’t think so. The fall wounded our nature but it did not render it dead. We can respond to grace, but not with out grace of course.

Does that even make sense to you? You need grace to respond to grace?? What enables you respond to the grace that enables you to respond to the grace? Let me guess...grace? That's an endless cycle that makes no sense because at some point we either have to acknowledge that God gives us irresistable grace that enables us to respond to the grace which enables us to respond to the grace, and so on, or we have to profess that sinful man responds to the grace without any proceeding grace. The point is, you believe that God enables ALL people ever created to embrace the Gospel by granting them previent grace, right? That grace is given unilaterally so we cannot credit God with the result of that grace in the lives of believers because to do so would force us to blame God for the ineffective grace in the lives of unbelievers. So, we can only view previent grace as grace that frees us from the bondage of our depravity but does not actually save us. Basically, it just puts us in a position where we are able, but not assured, of choosing to serve the Lord. So where does the credit lie for choosing Christ if all got the same measure of previent grace? With the creation. You believe that glorifies God?

God chooses us, we don’t chose Him. He gives us prevenient grace that leads man to conversion.

See, now, this isn't what you say you believe. You have always professed that this prevenient grace CAN lead man to conversion. Here you say that the grace that He gives us DOES lead to conversion. Which is it?

Humans have free will to chose their path and God will premove Him according to His foreknowledge. This is more along the lines of The Dominican or Thomist view.

Okay.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm fine with you saying that one must be reborn to get into Heaven. However, it's a contradiction to say that God is completely satisfied and then acknowledge another condition. Either the satisfaction is complete, which means nothing else is required, or it's not. According to what you're saying, it's not.

Why do you think he is willing to forgive original sin when we don’t deserve it?

God monergistically rebirths them by His power while they are still dead in their trespasses and sins and blind to the spiritual things of God.

Monergistically… Can you explain what this means?

Well, if you believe that all Jesus' death did was satisfy divine justice for original sin then it's no wonder that we disagree on every other point of doctrine.

Jesus paid the debt that Adam made. Do you really disagree? He also forgives a man of any personal sin he may commit when the man repents, do you disagree?

Same old, same old, huh? I don't believe God makes anyone choose Him in the robotic way that you're implying. I believe God changes our spiritual polarity when He regenerates us.

Guess so because I do not believe a person is dead in the respect that only if God breaths grace in them can they choose salvation with out still being able to choose damnation.

I do not have a problem with you saying that God converts the soul, I believe He does but I do not believe that choice is limited to us responding with out the option of rejecting.

He breaths grace in every soul sufficient enough and the conversion begins when the person turns from their sin when convicted and turns to God. You believe this will happen and it is irresistible when it does but I say it happens and man has to freely choose to move where God has led.

Justice? JUSTICE??!!! Do you honestly want God to give you justice for your treasonous acts against Him?

If I had not been delivered from original sin then His justice would be all I would get but Christ died and I have been born again through the waters of baptism and into Christ so I escape that justice and I always have the right to ask for mercy.

So now that I have been freed from Satan, sin, death, and hell that does that mean I still can not choose to close myself off from grace and mercy and blind myself by my personl sins that brings evil to my soul. Would it be just for God to save a evil person?

Does that even make sense to you?

Yes, it does because original sin was us losing grace and becoming a slave to sin. Do you think you have been freed from being a slave to sin?

Christ atoned for the disobedience of Adam and that justifies, it does not deliver us from the human condition, the human condition is, we will still sin personally even through original sin is gone forever. Christ is also the remedy for that.

An adult has God’s grace on Him through His life to repent of His sins and to accept the truth of the gospel that Jesus is Lord and we must be born again through Him in order to have our personal sins forgiven.

He has the calling to repent, why does God allow this man graces if He has not been born again? Because Christ died for all men, sent down the Holy Spirit and it is God’s will that all be saved so he calls.

That is the grace a unbeliever receives from God and when the man responds to this calling, God grants the soul additional grace of conversion, the man responds, and he is born again as he accepts Christ has savior. The Holy Sprint then remains with Him convicting Him of his sins and then man although “saved” continues to respond to the Holy Spirit's council or the man closes himself up in his sins and ignores the calling to repent of the sin that has brought evil to his soul. Unto death God hardens the heart of this man.

 

[Reformationist]

Why do you think he is willing to forgive original sin when we don?t deserve it?

Well, first, I don't think that atonement was limited to original sin. Second, the reason God forgives our sins is because Jesus' sacrifice satisfied the wrath of God against the sin of His elect. By virtue of Christ's invaluable sacrifice God is justified in extending His mercy to those vessels for whom Christ propitiated.

Monergistically? Can you explain what this means?

Sure. Monergistic means that only one source supplies all aspects of an action. With regard to our regeneration it means that God's purpose in election, and only God's purpose in election, was the cause for His grace in our rebirth and His power, and His power alone, was the means by which this event comes to pass.

Jesus paid the debt that Adam made. Do you really disagree?

No. I just don't feel that that's all His death accomplished, nor do I think that's all it was purposed to accomplish.

He also forgives a man of any personal sin he may commit when the man repents, do you disagree?

I absolutely disagree. Repentence is a gift from God. The desire and ability to genuinely repent is a RESULT of God's sovereign work of regeneration. Man's desire to repent of his sinfulness on a continuing basis is a RESULT of being indwelt with the Spirit of God. Only those who are regenerate are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The Bible is very clear that those who are "in the flesh" can do nothing to please God (Rom 8:8). Those who are not indwelt by the Spirit are not God's (Rom 8:9). Those who are "in the Spirit" are those in whom the Spirit of God dwells (Rom 8:9). The forgiveness we receive for our sinfulness, including those sins committed after regeneration, is still the result of the atonement of Christ.

I do not have a problem with you saying that God converts the soul, I believe He does but I do not believe that choice is limited to us responding with out the option of rejecting.

I fully understand. You would rather the choice to reject be yours, which inherently implies that the choice to accept was yours, thereby proclaiming your own glory. It seems to be more important to you that you were the one who made the righteous choice to be a child of God than it being God's sovereign decision. I imagine you'd think it was unfair if all men weren't given the same grace. I know many Christians who would rather view themselves as "not so bad," or, at least, "good/smart enough to choose Christ" than acknowledging that they were gladly slaves of their sinfulness and God alone rescued them, even when they were His enemy.

He breaths grace in every soul sufficient enough and the conversion begins when the person turns from their sin when convicted and turns to God.

This is exactly what I said above. If your "conversion" didn't start until you "turned from your sin when you were convicted" what exactly was it that God's grace actually did when He breathed it in to you? It obviously didn't start the conversion process. As I said, you'd much rather believe that you were smart enough or holy enough or wise enough to turn from your sin. That is a profession of your own righteousness rather than glorifying God because He rescued you from the depths of sinfulness. You get the glory instead of God.

If I had not been delivered from original sin then His justice would be all I would get but Christ died and I have been born again through the waters of baptism and into Christ so I escape that justice and I always have the right to ask for mercy.

Wow. You were born again because you were dunked in some water and you have the right to ask God for mercy? So much for grace. What didn't you deserve Michelle? Every time I hear you proclaim God's grace it's always accompanied by what you did or what God knew you'd do. Did God ever do anything for you that didn't depend on your cooperation and contribution?

Would it be just for God to save a evil person?

Every person God saves is evil when He atoned for them:

Romans 5:8,10
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Christ reconciled you to the Father when you were His enemy. Reconciled means that Christ, by His death, restored the relationship of friendship and harmony with God. That's the whole point of salvation. It's the wrath of God that we are saved from. We are now His children and, while He may chastise us as any Father might, He does not bear any wrath against us because of the atoning sacrifice of His Son. If Christ did this for everyone then everyone would enjoy the relationship of love that sons of God enjoy. The fact that many don't makes it clear that Christ did not reconcile everyone with the Father. Either we can believe that He wanted to reconcile everyone with the Father and failed (unthinkable), or, we can believe that He did not intend to reconcile all mankind to the Father, but rather, only those for whom He died and on that account He was 100% successful.

Yes, it does because original sin was us losing grace and becoming a slave to sin. Do you think you have been freed from being a slave to sin?

Michelle this has nothing to do with anything you said. You said, "We can respond to grace, but not with out grace of course." For the purposes of discussion let's call it "grace1" and "grace2." So, according to you, "We can respond to grace2, but not without grace1 of course." My question is, what do you need to respond to grace1, grace0? Where does the need for grace to respond to grace stop? If it ever stops then that means, at some point, you didn't need grace to respond to grace. If it never does stop then, at some point, God gave you grace that you could NOT resist. Which is it?

Christ atoned for the disobedience of Adam and that justifies, it does not deliver us from the human condition, the human condition is, we will still sin personally even through original sin is gone forever.

Do you know what the biblical term "justified" or "justification" means? It means "to be pronounced just" or "accounted as just." Just thought I share that with you because you seem to not have a clue what it means.

An adult has God?s grace on Him through His life to repent of His sins and to accept the truth of the gospel that Jesus is Lord and we must be born again through Him in order to have our personal sins forgiven.

You must be born again to even see the Kingdom of God, much less do something to try to enter it, like be baptized. You speak of people being baptized as if they, before they can even see the Kingdom of God, are baptized because they want to be part of something they can't even fathom. Before being born again man is carnal. The carnal mind cannot discern the things of the Spirit. The Spirit of God must FIRST regenerate man by indwelling him and THEN the man can seek it.

He has the calling to repent, why does God allow this man graces if He has not been born again?

The genuine desire to repent is not the desire of the unregenerate mind. In fact, the Bible says that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to carnal man. Ironically, it is in this state of thinking the things of God are foolishness that you claim that man makes a decision about his eternal life. Additionally, the Bible tells us that the grace of God rains on the just and the unjust. I'm sure that God distributes His grace to usher in His plan. For instance, many would say that Pharaoh was a man graced by God. He had risen to the highest level of authority a single man has ever known. He was clearly not a follower of God yet God graced him with much power and prosperity. Why, as you ask, did God do this:

Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

God graced Pharaoh, clearly an unregenerate person, so that God's glory would be proclaimed throughout the earth.

Because Christ died for all men, sent down the Holy Spirit and it is God?s will that all be saved so he calls.

It's truly sad that you view the Lord God Almighty as so impotent that He cannot even bring to pass that which He sovereignly wills. Oh well.

That is the grace a unbeliever receives from God and when the man responds to this calling, God grants the soul additional grace of conversion, the man responds, and he is born again as he accepts Christ has savior.

Look at the pattern and tell me who's glory you profess:

• God gives prevenient grace.
  ONLY WHEN MAN RESPONDS does this grace accomplish anything, in this case, He gets more grace for conversion.
  God gives the grace for conversion.
  ONLY WHEN MAN RESPONDS does this grace that God gave to accomplish salvation actually accomplish it.

God's grace is unable to accomplish the purpose for which the omnipotent God gives it UNLESS MAN RESPONDS.

Truly sad. Here's your scenario in a God centered, God glorifying way:

• God gives man the grace to respond by regenerating him and giving him a desire to serve the Lord.
  Man responds.
  God gives His grace to conform the man to the image of His righteous Son.
  Man is conformed.

That is giving God, the only worthy recipient of glory, ALL of the glory.

The Holy Sprint then remains with Him convicting Him of his sins and then man although ?saved? continues to respond to the Holy Spirit's council or the man closes himself up in his sins and ignores the calling to repent of the sin that has brought evil to his soul. Unto death God hardens the heart of this man.

Everything about your beliefs revolves around man's ability to respond. If man responds correctly, God gives him more grace. If man responds incorrectly, God hardens his heart. Truly pitiful.

If man responds correctly it's BECAUSE God gave him grace. If God does not give man grace, which He is under no obligation to give, then man responds according to his fallen reasoning. Only when we acknowledge our natural response to our environment apart from God's umerited favor can we truly appreciate God's unmerited favor. To hold onto the idea that getting God's grace is a result of doing the right thing is to perpetuate the belief that we're not so bad. That's the lie that the prince of the power of the air would have us believe. "Hey, you're not so bad. Things won't be so bad if you eat that apple." Yeah. Sure.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Everything about your beliefs revolves around man's ability to respond. If man responds correctly, God gives him more grace. If man responds incorrectly, God hardens his heart. Truly pitiful.

Truly pitiful? Try truly beautiful.

If you believe that God to you must chose to save some in order to be glorified then knock your self out, that is your God given right to believe what ever you want, but I so happen to think differently based on what I believe is taught in the bible.

Grace is Jesus coming and dying for mankind and sending the Holy Spirit to us. The grace is the Holy Spirit convicting us of our sins and the grace is repenting when convicted and then grace is us coming to believe and when we believe grace is then accepting Christ as our savior and being born again in Him. Grace is also ensuring our salvation when we persevere until the end.

If all that grace God grants to a sinner, who did nothing to deserve it, is pitiful to you then you are certainly entitled by your God given right to be entitled to think that.

After we have been born again Paul say that we have been crucified with Christ, that we died with Him and so everything post regeneration is untied to the cross of Jesus Christ and everything we do in Him is a grace from God. We pray, it is redemptive, we forgive, it is redemptive, we offer the other cheek and give our cloak away, it is redemptive, we help those in need, it is redemptive.

You call that pitiful, I call that beautiful.

 

[Reformationist]

Truly pitiful? Try truly beautiful.

If you believe that God to you must chose to save some in order to be glorified then knock your self out, that is your God given right to believe what ever you want, but I so happen to think differently based on what I believe is taught in the bible.

Grace is Jesus coming and dying for mankind and sending the Holy Spirit to us. The grace is the Holy Spirit convicting us of our sins and the grace is repenting when convicted and then grace is us coming to believe and when we believe grace is then accepting Christ as our savior and being born again in Him. Grace is also ensuring our salvation when we persevere until the end.

If all that grace God grants to a sinner, who did nothing to deserve it, is pitiful to you then you are certainly entitled by your God given right to be entitled to think that.

After we have been born again Paul say that we have been crucified with Christ, that we died with Him and so everything post regeneration is untied to the cross of Jesus Christ and everything we do in Him is a grace from God. We pray, it is redemptive, we forgive, it is redemptive, we offer the other cheek and give our cloak away, it is redemptive, we help those in need, it is redemptive.

You call that pitiful, I call that beautiful.

I never said the grace of God was pitiful. I was referring to your interpretation of God's ability to bring about His own desires. You credit man with more power than you do God.

Either way, do you not have a comment for the rest of my post? I spent quite a bit of time putting it together. The least you could do is address the various points I made.

God bless

 

[seebs]

For those of you who believe God never intended for these vessels to be "vessels of wrath created for destruction" but rather they just turned out that way, why do you believe He "went ahead and created them?"

If He creates people, some of them will turn out badly. The only way to avoid this is not to create people. He can't logically only create the ones that turn out well.

Basically, there are a lot of possible people in the world, but a person exactly like me except that he does one thing differently isn't one of them. Small changes in the person created may be huge changes in life, and of course, we interact with each other.

I believe He creates us free, and that we are the ones who end up determining our own fates, within the framework He created. Any other answer strikes me as a sort of sadistic puppet show.

 

[Benedicta00]

I never said the grace of God was pitiful. I was referring to your interpretation of God's ability to bring about His own desires. You credit man with more power than you do God.

As I previously stated grace Jesus is being sent to atone for man's sin, grace is Jesus sending us the Holy Spirit so we will be convicted, grace is God's calling man to repent, grace is repenting, grace is converting, grace is accepting Christ as savior and Lord of your life, grace is trusting in mercy until your last day that Christ forgives you your sins, grace is repenting when we sin, grace is persevering until the end.

I credit man with nothing and God with everything because if it were not for God granting man such graces, no one would be saved but what you have to accept from us as a valid explanation is that man does respond or he does reject and that is God’s will- God ordained man’s choice and God allows the choices man has made. Nothing happens outside his will. What you do not have to do is believe but you can stop acting as if that is not a valid explanation because if God says so, anything then becomes valid.

Either way, do you not have a comment for the rest of my post? I spent quite a bit of time putting it together. The least you could do is address the various points I made.

I apologize for that but I am finding your same pattern immerging which is obstinate in not being willing to discuss to learn and understand properly one another, but to debate whether I am right or not. I am not on trial and I do not have to prove to you that I am right and I am not going to be made to feel as if I must.

I am only trying to give what ever little knowledge I do have and what ever insights I may have and offer what ever explanation I can and answer what ever honest questions you may ask. I would much rather if you stop building the wall around you and you would come from around it to understand properly that I am not humanistic, universalistic, or Armenian but, Catholic-- Latin Rite and my views are that of the Catholic Church and of no other and if you would understand properly what I am explaining you would then come to see that Catholics do not glorify God’s sovereign choice, we glorify him through His son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Through him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all glory and honor is yours almighty Father forever and ever- Amen.

 

[Reformationist]

As I previously stated grace Jesus is being sent to atone for man's sin, grace is Jesus sending us the Holy Spirit so we will be convicted, grace is God's calling man to repent, grace is repenting, grace is converting, grace is accepting Christ as savior and Lord of your life, grace is trusting in mercy until your last day that Christ forgives you your sins, grace is repenting when we sin, grace is persevering until the end.

I agree that all of that happens by the grace of God. I've never professed otherwise.

I credit man with nothing and God with everything because if it were not for God granting man such graces, no one would be saved

I agree with this as well.

but what you have to accept from us as a valid explanation is that man does respond or he does reject and that is God’s will- God ordained man’s choice and God allows the choices man has made. Nothing happens outside his will.

I also agree with all of this. I never said man didn't respond. I never said that some don't reject God. All I've ever said is that all of this happens by sovereign ordination of God.

What you do not have to do is believe but you can stop acting as if that is not a valid explanation because if God says so, anything then becomes valid.

I'm not sure I understand your sentence but I would just clarify that I do not believe that there is a possibility that someone whom God has brought to a saving knowledge of Himself by the regenerative power of the Spirit of God is morally able to reject that knowledge and live a life void of a desire to serve God. I think all people, saved and unsaved, sin. But I do acknowledge that God is greater than man and able to overcome man's obstinacy. I don't think He does this by "overpowering" man. I think He does it by giving them a new spirit that desires to do His will. In effect, He lovingly changes their spiritual polarity when He regenerates them and indwells them. I don't consider that "forcing" man to comply. I think the work of God in His sovereign, monergistic act of regeneration creates in man a desire to submit to God that cannot be overcome, nor does man want to overcome it. Serving the Lord in obedience becomes man's greatest desire thanks to the indwelling nature of the Holy Spirit.

You say, "stop acting as if that is not a valid explanation because if God says so, anything then becomes valid." Let me reiterate that I am not questioning God's authority. I agree that if God says that something is "valid" then it is valid. I was not questioning God. I was questioning your understanding of Him. Just because you say that God says something doesn't mean that God said it.

I apologize for that but I am finding your same pattern immerging which is obstinate in not being willing to discuss to learn and understand properly one another, but to debate whether I am right or not.

I'll concede that I often, especially when discussing things with you, fall into that catagory. I would like to point out that it is my opinion that God often reveals to us the faults of others because we suffer from that same weakness. Take that how you will.

I am not on trial and I do not have to prove to you that I am right and I am not going to be made to feel as if I must.

Michelle, if you are too weak in your faith to either avoid the discussions I post or engage in them in a godly way then that is something you must learn to overcome. I have never tried to force you to partake in any discussion, nor could I.

I am only trying to give what ever little knowledge I do have and what ever insights I may have and offer what ever explanation I can and answer what ever honest questions you may ask. I would much rather if you stop building the wall around you and you would come from around it to understand properly that I am not humanistic, universalistic, or Armenian but, Catholic-- Latin Rite and my views are that of the Catholic Church and of no other and if you would understand properly what I am explaining you would then come to see that Catholics do not glorify God’s sovereign choice, we glorify him through His son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Through him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all glory and honor is yours almighty Father forever and ever- Amen.

"The wall" is not intentional, if there even is one. As for the rest of the above quote, I'll pass on commenting.

God bless

 

[JesusServant]

I believe He creates us free, and that we are the ones who end up determining our own fates, within the framework He created. Any other answer strikes me as a sort of sadistic puppet show.

I completely agree seebs. Except for one thing. When we come to the 'end of ourselves' as I've heard it put. When a person has tasted of most of this world and tried to find happiness in all *things* or maybe in work or play or whatever this world has to offer. When they have come to the end of their rope and realize they are missing the simple joys in life and the fruits this life has to offer that are most important yet overlooked by so many (love, trust, selflessness, etc.) At that point people decide to *freely* give their life over to God. It is their choice to give up their choice. And no matter how the road may turn they trust that it is God's sovereign will. Just read about Joseph. God told him He would rule over many and then he found himself in a pit, in jail, etc. Yet, what God said held true and he was blessed beyond his wildest dreams. Now, many of us could care less about ruling anyone or anything. We just want to lead simple, happy, loving, giving lives, but we cannot do that without God's direction. It is not within us without Him in us. I know you know all of this, but it begs the question, are you ever going to be willing to be His puppet? (as you put it)

Jesus was.

 

[JesusServant]

BTW, seebs, that last question wasn't directed at you, but all of us as a whole who read this. Just wanted to clarify...

 

[Benedicta00]

Don,

I am glad we can agree that it is by grace that we are saved but the simplicity of what we believe is that we do not read in the bible that God performs a miracle in our minds to have us accept salvation from Him. We see that God created our minds already with the ability to accept Christ and say yes to Him. We can not be charged with the accusation that man is given too much credit because it is God who created us the way he did.

We believe that God made us for Himself and what sin did was separate us from Him sharing His life with us. With out the shedding of blood there could be no forgiveness of sins. Christ is the lamb who shed His blood for the remission of sins, not specifically for a group of people but "so that sins may be forgiven."

God's mercy gates are wide open now because of our lord, Jesus. Our minds can say yes when God calls because Jesus paid the debt in full. The Holy Spirit is released on earth to convict the world of it’s sin.

There is a saying in Catholicism, the 'Devil got it right'. He said to Adam and Eve, "surly you won't die, you will be like gods yourself, knowing what is good and evil."

We did not die in nature we were separated from God that brings the punishment of eternal separation and we lost our gifts and now our nature is weaken from the sickness we call sin. God indeed created all our minds capable of making the choice to say yes but sin makes it difficult. Sin made it hard, not impossible. Grace is needed in order to say yes and it is there for all men and it always was. All Adam had to do is rely on grace that was there and he never would have fell but he rejected that and relied on self and fell. God knew and allowed for the purpose of His will and that is to bring a greater good out of the fall and that is salvation through Christ and not original justice.

The devil is right about us being like God but not the devil's way which is to be our own god but what God intended for us all is to share his own divine life, to have supernatural life, not just natural life. Jesus said "the flesh is no avail"

The very beginnings of God's grace on man and his love and calling to all men is recorded in Genesis, this is also know as the very first prayer and best describes prevenient grace.

God goes looking for Adam and calls out to Adam "Where art thou?" Notice, Adam was wounded from his sin and is ashamed and hides from God but what does God do? He looks for him and calls out to him and what does Adam do, he responds to God’s call, “I was naked.” Your biblical evidence is right there but you have every right to disagree.

But this is what we believe, that we hide from God because of the shame of sin and God calls to us and we respond. You think it’s pathetic, I say it is beautiful.

 

[Reformationist]

I am glad we can agree that it is by grace that we are saved but the simplicity of what we believe is that we do not read in the bible that God performs a miracle in our minds to have us accept salvation from Him. We see that God created our minds already with the ability to accept Christ and say yes to Him.

And this, IMO, is the crux of the issue. Here you say that God creates you with the inherent ability to accept Christ and say yes to Him. Before you acknowledged that accepting the grace of God requires grace. These seem incongruous. If you have the inherent ability to do something you don't need God's help to do it. That is not to say that His help isn't beneficial. I'm just saying that the idea that we have the inherent ability to do something conflicts with your previous statements that we need God's grace to do it. It's either already part of our makup or God must give us help. If it is already part of your makeup then it would seem to credit God. However, we run into a major problem bacause you are not crediting God for the choice you actually make but rather just for the ability to make that choice. Therefore, the decision you actually make is the product of your will, not God's grace.

We can not be charged with the accusation that man is given too much credit because it is God who created us the way he did.

Where does it say that post Fall man has the moral freedom, apart from the grace of God renewing his mind, to acknowledge and submit to Christ's Lordship?

We believe that God made us for Himself and what sin did was separate us from Him sharing His life with us.

Do you believe that that separation was always a part of God's plan?

With out the shedding of blood there could be no forgiveness of sins. Christ is the lamb who shed His blood for the remission of sins, not specifically for a group of people but "so that sins may be forgiven."

Honestly, do you think it's glorifying to God to imply that He came to earth, dwelled amongst His creation, and died a heinous death so that sins may be forgiven? Do you believe that God knew as a certainty that sins would definitely be forgiven? The idea that the Godhead did all that they did so that created man may be forgiven is not glorifying to God. It calls into question so many things about God's sovereign nature. Tell me Michelle, was there ever a possibility that every single person ever created would accept Christ as Lord and Savior?

God's mercy gates are wide open now because of our lord, Jesus. Our minds can say yes when God calls because Jesus paid the debt in full. The Holy Spirit is released on earth to convict the world of it’s sin.

What is it that we're saying "yes" to?

There is a saying in Catholicism, the 'Devil got it right'. He said to Adam and Eve, "surly you won't die, you will be like gods yourself, knowing what is good and evil."

I don't know what that means. Can you explain?

We did not die in nature we were separated from God that brings the punishment of eternal separation and we lost our gifts and now our nature is weaken from the sickness we call sin.

Seriously...take your time. Use punctuation and try to form coherent sentences. It helps people understand what you're trying to say.

You say our nature is weakened, right? What does that mean to us? Are we just more susceptible to sinning? What does "weakened" mean in this context?

God indeed created all our minds capable of making the choice to say yes but sin makes it difficult. Sin made it hard, not impossible.

It's difficult but not impossible? Hmmm... Scripture clearly tells us that carnal man CANNOT do ANYTHING to please God (Rom 8:8). So what is carnal man? Carnal man is someone who is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit(Rom 8:9). "Cannot" is not a reference to permission Michelle. It is a direct reference to ability. Unregenerate man is INCAPABLE of doing anything pleasing to God. It is IMPOSSIBLE for unregenerate man to do anything to please God?

Grace is needed in order to say yes and it is there for all men and it always was.

If grace is "needed" then we were not created with the ability to accept Christ and say yes to whatever it is you think we say yes to.

You say grace is there for all men and it always has been, right? Does grace ever fail to accomplish the purpose for which God gives it?

The very beginnings of God's grace on man and his love and calling to all men is recorded in Genesis, this is also know as the very first prayer and best describes prevenient grace.

God goes looking for Adam and calls out to Adam "Where art thou?" Notice, Adam was wounded from his sin and is ashamed and hides from God but what does God do? He looks for him and calls out to him and what does Adam do, he responds to God’s call, “I was naked.” Your biblical evidence is right there but you have every right to disagree.

Biblical evidence of what, God's grace? Are you saying that the above example is the "beginning of God's grace on man?" What about this:

Genesis 1:26-28
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

I'd say this example of grace precedes the one you referrenced.

But this is what we believe, that we hide from God because of the shame of sin and God calls to us and we respond. You think it’s pathetic, I say it is beautiful.

No. I don't think that's pathetic. I never said that was pathetic. Stop putting words in my mouth. What I find pathetic is the view that God universally calls ALL people to repent becaue He desires that every person ever created be saved but then is unable to make that come to pass, or He chooses to not ensure that it comes to pass. IMO it's irrational to believe that God would set Himself up to be that disappointed, not to mention the picture of impotence it paints of God's ability to accomplish His own desires.

 

[Benedicta00]

These seem incongruous. If you have the inherent ability to do something you don't need God's help to do it

How is God not in control here by creating us this way and that is for Himself? We were created to be with Him. He created us to be with Him plain and simple.

Scripture clearly tells us that carnal man CANNOT do ANYTHING to please God

I did not say we can please God I said he calls and we can say yes. With out the sacrifice of Christ nothing we do will please Him. I specifically, many times have explained this. You are twisting my explanation to say things that they do not say and I wish you would stop debating and twisting but just listen to the explanation.

Seriously...take your time. Use punctuation and try to form coherant sentences. It helps people understand what you're trying to say.

What is incoherent about this? We did not die in nature we were separated from God that brings the punishment of eternal separation and we lost our gifts and now our nature is weaken from the sickness we call sin

There is nothing wrong with this sentence and I am becoming put off by your criticism. Please stop detracting from the issue by critiquing my English. Ps, you spelled coherant wrong, it is spelled coherent.

You say our nature is weakened, right? What does that mean to us? Are we just more suseptible to sinning? What does "weakened" mean in this context?

That sin made us depraved where will be inclined to lean towards evil. Lacking in self-control, good judgement. All because sin has darkened our intellect, and weakened our will and removed self control ONLY in matters of morality, we as St. Paul describes beautifully “do what we don’t want and don’t do what we do want.” Further biblical evidence that man’s choice was never removed from him but man now struggles against his own self.

You say grace is there for all men and it always has been, right? Does grace ever fail to accomplish the purpose for which God gives it?

What is God’s purpose to you?

Biblical evidence of what, God's grace? Are you saying that the above example is the "beginning of God's grace on man?" What about this:

Yep. I am. Adam sins, runs away and God goes looking for Him and then asks "Where art thou?" and Adam ashamed but answers still, "I was naked." That is the first prayer and we see God reaching out to fallen man by looking for Adam and then by calling out to Him. You really going to tell me that is not a correct way to interpret this?

Genesis 1:26-28
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

This verse teaches that we are made in the image and likeness of God and our bodies reflect the image of the trinity where God says “He created him; male and female He created them. We reflect the image of the trinity when the two become one and bring forth life form that union just as the father and the Son are one in nature who from their love flows the Holy Spirit.

No. I don't think that's pathetic. I never said that was pathetic. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Yes you did…

What I find pathetic is the view that God universally calls ALL people to repent becaue His desire is that every person ever created be saved but then is unable to make that come to pass,

But who are you to say that this is unacceptable to God if he so wills this for Himself? God’s a big boy I’m sure he can handle disappointment if He finds it best to have us freely choose.

Can’t you just be content understanding and accepting from God that this His will that we freely make the choice? God granting that we freely choose to say yes does not mean that God does not sovereignty controls the universe. Geessh. God has no limits he can create us to chose and still be in control at at the same time. Stop putting Him in a box determining what he can and can not do.


You have to start understanding that this is a mystery, God’s will is a mystery to us, something that we can not explain away and not Calvin or the Catholic Church will ever fully know the mind of God and His mysterious ways. It is you that says he is disappointed, not God. We don’t even know if anyone is in hell or will ever be, we assume but none of us really know.

 

[Reformationist]

How is God not in control here by creating us this way and that is for Himself?

I never said that God wasn't in control. What I said was that it is contradictory to say that we have the inherent ability to do something but are unable to do it without God's help. Either we are naturally able to do it because it's part of how we were created or we need God's grace to be able to do it, which would make it NOT inherent to us.

We were created to be with Him. He created us to be with Him plain and simple.

So God, the Almighty Creator who, by His power, created man to be exactly what he is, created man to be with Him but many don't end up with Him. In what way does that glorify God? On the contrary, it speaks of a Creator that created man for a specific purpose, to be with Him, but that purpose will never be realized.

I did not say we can please God I said he calls and we can say yes.

You don't think saying "yes" pleases God??!!

With out the sacrifice of Christ nothing we do will please Him. I specifically, many times have explained this. You are twisting my explanation to say things that they do not say and I wish you would stop debating and twisting but just listen to the explanation.

I'm not twisting anything Michelle. I'm quoting your exact words.

What is incoherent about this? We did not die in nature we were separated from God that brings the punishment of eternal separation and we lost our gifts and now our nature is weaken from the sickness we call sin

Well, let me help. Here is your sentence with proper punctuation and spelling:

"We did not die in nature. We were separated from God. That brings the punishment of eternal separation and the loss of our gifts. Now our nature is weakened from the sickness we call sin."

I spend as much time decoding what you type as I do trying to understand your point of view.

There is nothing wrong with this sentence and I am becoming put off by your criticism.

What??!!! It's one big run on sentence. What do you mean there's nothing wrong with it?

Please stop detracting from the issue by critiquing my English.

You complain because I don't try to understand. I asked you to take your time and make sure your sentences make sense and now you are ticked off because I'm trying to understand? Make up your mind Michelle.

Ps, you spelled coherant wrong, it is spelled coherent.

LOL!!! ROTFLOL!!! I hate to break the news to you but look at the time of my last edit: 10:38 AM. Look at the time of your post: 11:13 AM.

Now check the spelling of "coherent" in my post. In case you can't figure it out, that means that I corrected the misspelling 35 MINUTES BEFORE you even posted telling me about my "misspelling." If nothing else that should make you feel a bit silly.

That sin made us depraved where will be inclined to lean towards evil. Lacking in self-control, good judgement. All because sin has darkened our intellect, and weakened our will and removed self control ONLY in matters of morality, we as St. Paul describes beautifully “do what we don’t want and don’t do what we do want.” Further biblical evidence that man’s choice was never removed from him but man now struggles against his own self.

I never said man's choice was removed. What I said, and what I've always said, is that man's nature is so completely affected by the Fall that THE CHOICE HE ALWAYS MAKES prior to regeneration is a sinful one.

What is God’s purpose to you?

The primary purpose of God in everything He does is His own glory.

Yep. I am. Adam sins, runs away and God goes looking for Him and then asks "Where art thou?" and Adam ashamed but answers still, "I was naked." That is the first prayer and we see God reaching out to fallen man by looking for Adam and then by calling out to Him. You really going to tell me that is not a correct way to interpret this?

This verse teaches that we are made in the image and likeness of God and our bodies reflect the image of the trinity where God says “He created him; male and female He created them. We reflect the image of the trinity when the two become one and bring forth life form that union just as the father and the Son are one in nature who from their love flows the Holy Spirit.

You don't consider the actual creation of man to be God's grace towards humanity?

But who are you to say that this is unacceptable to God if he so wills this for Himself? God’s a big boy I’m sure he can handle disappointment if He finds it best to have us freely choose.

Ahhh yes. The disappointed God. There's a new picture of God that will show His magnificence and bring Him glory.

Can’t you just be content understanding and accepting from God that this His will that we freely make the choice? God granting that we freely choose to say yes does not mean that God does not sovereignty controls the universe. Geessh. God has no limits he can create us to chose and still be in control at at the same time. Stop putting Him in a box determining what he can and can not do.

LOL! I wouldn't be content believing what you believe because it subordinates God's immutable plan to man's "choice." I do believe that man freely makes whatever choice he makes. I just believe that there's a reason he makes that choice. If he is unregenerate then his corruption considers God an enemy. Therefore, he freely rebels against God's Law. If he is regenerate the Holy Spirit has indwelt him and inclines him to his new Father, the Lord Himself.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

I never said that God wasn't in control. What I said was that it is contradictory to say that we have the inherent ability to do something but are unable to do it without God's help. Either we are naturally able to do it because it's part of how we were created or we need God's grace to be able to do it, which would make it NOT inherent to us.

For the last time we do not seek God but He seeks us and calls out to us and we have the ability to respond or to ignore.

So God, the Almighty Creator who, by His power, created man to be exactly what he is, created man to be with Him but many don't end up with Him. In what way does that glorify God?

He wanted us to be with Him freely of our own accord, he gave us a test and man failed but he did not abandon man, he promised him a savior. The savoir saves us from our saying no through willful sin by way of repenting. He gave us a way back to Him when frail humans fail but the human, jut as Adam did, has the choice.

On the contrary, it speaks of a Creator that created man for a specific purpose, to be with Him, but that purpose will never be realized.

That is what you say, what you think that means.

You don't think saying "yes" pleases God??!!

What I don’t think is saying yes to God is what St. Paul had in mind.

LOL!!! ROTFLOL!!! I hate to break the news to you but look at the time of my last edit: 10:38 AM. Look at the time of your post: 11:13 AM.

Now check the spelling of "coherent" in my post. In case you can't figure it out, that means that I corrected the misspelling 35 MINUTES BEFORE you even posted telling me about my "misspelling." If nothing else that should make you feel a bit silly.

It was intended to point out to you that you need to lighten up and whether you corrected it or not, you still spelled it wrong and you spelled more than just that one wrong, but so what? I don’t care.

I don’t respond to you right away because I am either busy doing something else or I need to back away from your reply so I can make sure I respond and not react. You require more patience than I have I am afraid to say.

I am trying to point out to you that we all make mistakes, stop being so critical, that is all I am asking you. You apparently where able to read my run on sentence because you did structure it properly, so that tells me you can read, your just being critical and I must ask, why?

Now as far as the rest of the post is concerned.

I believe man has free will and God made it that way. It is only you who attribute to Him failure if he determines this; it is not the realty of the situation.

You don't consider the actual creation of man to be God's grace towards humanity?

I am not saying that prevenient grace is the very first grace of all but it is the grace that comes before conversion.

How does this take anything away from Adam hiding from God because of his sin and God seeking him out and calling out to Him? That is the very essence, the very picture of God’s prevenient grace. Which the word means to come before. It shows us that we do not seek Him because of our sin but He seeks us and He calls us and we respond. Jesus said the very same thing when he said “You have not chosen me but I have chosen you.”

I’m sorry but this is what the bible teaches us, just plain.