Why?

[JesusServant]

For two people that do not want to debate with one another, you guys sure are doing a fine job debating.

 

[Reformationist]

If He creates people, some of them will turn out badly. The only way to avoid this is not to create people. He can't logically only create the ones that turn out well.

Wow. That speaks volumes about your views of God's omnipotence. I cannot believe you think God is unable to create people and ensure they turn out exactly as He planned. Your reason for believing this is that you feel it's illogical? Wow.

Basically, there are a lot of possible people in the world, but a person exactly like me except that he does one thing differently isn't one of them. Small changes in the person created may be huge changes in life, and of course, we interact with each other.

So how you turn out is by chance?

I believe He creates us free, and that we are the ones who end up determining our own fates, within the framework He created. Any other answer strikes me as a sort of sadistic puppet show.

You determine your own fate? I see.:o

 

[Reformationist]

For the last time we do not seek God but He seeks us and calls out to us and we have the ability to respond or to ignore.

If you have the ability to respond or ignore then that means that God is ambivalent as to what you do. If it was His desire, as an omnipotent God, for you to be saved then He wouldn't leave the decision up to a sinful creation. He would ensure it comes to pass. I think it very telling that you'd rather the decision be yours, even if that means you go to hell, than that God loves you so much He ensures you are with Him always.

He wanted us to be with Him freely of our own accord, he gave us a test and man failed but he did not abandon man, he promised him a savior. The savoir saves us from our saying no through willful sin by way of repenting. He gave us a way back to Him when frail humans fail but the human, jut as Adam did, has the choice.

He gave you a way. Wow. That is so gracious of Him. He gave you a way. Why did you take that way? Were you just so smart you saw your need and the merit in being with God?

That is what you say, what you think that means.

Unless you're a universalist you don't believe God's purpose will ever be realized either so I don't know why you're arguing with this. You say God's purpose in creating mankind, ALL OF THEM, was for them to be with Him. I doubt you think that ALL mankind will be with Him. Do you?

What I don’t think is saying yes to God is what St. Paul had in mind.

I have no clue what you're saying here.

It was intended to point out to you that you need to lighten up and whether you corrected it or not, you still spelled it wrong and you spelled more than just that one wrong, but so what? I don’t care.

There's a big difference between spelling coherent with an "a" instead of an "e" and one big run-on sentence. I'm not asking you to be an English major. I'm just saying that good grammer helps get your point across.

I don’t respond to you right away because I am either busy doing something else or I need to back away from your reply so I can make sure I respond and not react.

My point was, by the time you "came back" to respond I had already corrected it, 35 minutes before you posted. So, you saw a mispelling and kept that in your mind for 35 minutes so you could point something out that had been corrected long before you ever pointed it out. As I said, you should feel silly.

You require more patience than I have I am afraid to say.

As I mentioned before, I believe the Lord reveals the weaknesses of others to our eyes so that we can recognize our OWN proclivity to commit the SAME sins. Take that as you will.

I am trying to point out to you that we all make mistakes, stop being so critical, that is all I am asking you.

I wasn't being critical. I was asking you to make sure your posts are readable before you post them. Type it up and go back and slowly read it. How fun would it be for you to read "Michelle the doctrines espoused by John Calvin weren't actually called that while he was alive he spent a lot of time studying the Word is helpful to our growth and can help us to learn to be godly to others may have trouble following God's Law is difficult..." Do you get the picture??? This is what you're posts are like. I'm sure you have worthwhile things to add, though I disagree with them, but your point is often very hard to dicipher.

You apparently where able to read my run on sentence because you did structure it properly, so that tells me you can read, your just being critical and I must ask, why?

This time I was able to dicipher it. Never mind Michelle.

I believe man has free will and God made it that way. It is only you who attribute to Him failure if he determines this; it is not the realty of the situation.

Well, I don't believe I'm the only one who feels that way, but I get you're point. You disagree.

I am not saying that prevenient grace is the very first grace of all but it is the grace that comes before conversion.

Is prevenient grace always successful in bringing someone to Christ?

It shows us that we do not seek Him because of our sin but He seeks us and He calls us and we respond.

Write this down somewhere because you seem to forget it every time you post:

I believe that man responds.

What I'm curious about is why you respond by submitting to the grace of God while someone else rejects that same grace.

Jesus said the very same thing when he said “You have not chosen me but I have chosen you.”

What does it mean to you to be "chosen by Jesus?"

 

[Reformationist]

For two people that do not want to debate with one another, you guys sure are doing a fine job debating.

LOL!!!

 

[McCravey]

We are the vessels for destruction.

We are like clay pots that contain great and glorious treasures.

We see our existence and recognize our being as the vessels only--we have trouble recognizing the great treasure hidden within us.

 

[Reformationist]

We are the vessels for destruction.

Are you saying that all mankind are vessels prepared for destruction?

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

If you have the ability to respond or ignore then that means that God is ambivalent as to what you do. If it was His desire, as an omnipotent God, for you to be saved then He wouldn't leave the decision up to a sinful creation. He would ensure it comes to pass. I think it very telling that you'd rather the decision be yours, even if that means you go to hell, than that God loves you so much He ensures you are with Him always.

That is how you see it, that is how you understand it, that is what God is made up to be by you. Not all of us agree. I simple do not see what you see. I do not agree that God creating us for Himself he would be the things you say because he granted us the free will to choose to say yes to Him.

He gave you a way. Wow. That is so gracious of Him. He gave you a way. Why did you take that way? Were you just so smart you saw your need and the merit in being with God?

We are created inherently good- not evil. As God made us that way and said as much, that is what he created is good. We always have the ability to choose good it is just very hard for us to because we are in conflict with our own self in the area of moral good and evil.

The fall rendered us wounded not destroyed. That means just has Paul said it means, that we “don’t do the good we want and do the evil we don’t want.”

Unless you're a universalist you don't believe God's purpose will ever be realized either so I don't know why you're arguing with this. You say God's purpose in creating mankind, ALL OF THEM, was for them to be with Him. I doubt you think that ALL mankind will be with Him. Do you?

I am a Catholic fully in line with what the Church says, surly you have picked up on this by now.

He chooses us, not us Him. He chooses us but he respects our choice to not be with Him.

CCC: 1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

Is prevenient grace always successful in bringing someone to Christ?

Prevenient grace is always successful in calling someone to Christ.

And this is what Augustine says (De Natura et Gratia xxxi): "It is prevenient, inasmuch as it heals, and subsequent, inasmuch as, being healed, we are strengthened; it is prevenient, inasmuch as we are called, and subsequent, inasmuch as we are glorified."

Write this down somewhere because you seem to forget it every time you post:

I believe that man responds.

What I'm curious about is why you respond by submitting to the grace of God while someone else rejects that same grace.

Because man is free to choose the path he seeks and although God seeks him and calls him, if man does not respond to his call by recognizing his need for God, realizing he is powerless in this world and coming to believe through the gift of faith then man will keep searching fruitlessly for happiness in dead end things and his sin will eventually blind him. Sometimes rock bottom is God’s way of drawing man to Himself, through man’s suffering but the graces are operative and cooperative and if man closes Himself up in his sins he becomes evil because that is what his sin brings to his soul, grace then can not be operative in his life and God hardens his heart.

What does it mean to you to be "chosen by Jesus?"

To be created by God.

Look if you really want to know exactly the Church’s teaching is then I urge you to read this http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_.../vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html Skip to PART I THE CHURCH AND MAN'S CALLING #11.

It is beautiful, in-depth, awesomely explained. It answers every question you have ever asked on this forum. I guarantee it does. Then if you still have questions or grips, feel free to post them.

 

[Benedicta00]

Wow. That speaks volumes about your views of God's omnipotence. I cannot believe you think God is unable to create people and ensure they turn out exactly as He planned. Your reason for believing this is that you feel it's illogical? Wow.

He doesn't plan to have anyone turn out badly man chooses that for himself. It’s like the alcoholic, he wasn’t born addicted to drinking but he became addicted through a series of choices. Do you believe it take a miracle preformed in his mind to get him to stop drinking or simply him being healed of the reasons that drive him to drink?

 

[Benedicta00]

I completely agree seebs. Except for one thing. When we come to the 'end of ourselves' as I've heard it put. When a person has tasted of most of this world and tried to find happiness in all *things* or maybe in work or play or whatever this world has to offer. When they have come to the end of their rope and realize they are missing the simple joys in life and the fruits this life has to offer that are most important yet overlooked by so many (love, trust, selflessness, etc.) At that point people decide to *freely* give their life over to God. It is their choice to give up their choice. And no matter how the road may turn they trust that it is God's sovereign will. Just read about Joseph. God told him He would rule over many and then he found himself in a pit, in jail, etc. Yet, what God said held true and he was blessed beyond his wildest dreams. Now, many of us could care less about ruling anyone or anything. We just want to lead simple, happy, loving, giving lives, but we cannot do that without God's direction. It is not within us without Him in us. I know you know all of this, but it begs the question, are you ever going to be willing to be His puppet? (as you put it)


Jesus was.

I’m having trouble understanding your point. I think your saying that surrendering brings true freedom, right?