Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Clare73]

Aion doesnt mean everlasting. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. Everlasting isn't everlasting if it ends.

Talking about aionios, which is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as in
God (Ro 16:26),
God's power (1 Tim 6:16),
God's glory (1 Pe 5:10),
the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14),
the redemption secured by Christ (Heb 9:12),
the resulting salvation of man (Heb 5:9),
Christ's kingdom (2 Peter 1:11), which is without end (Lke1:33),
the life received through faith (John 3:16), whom shall never perish (Jn 10:28),
the resurrection body (2 Co 5:1), which is immortal (1 Co 15:53), and in which the life of Jn 3:16 will be finally realized (Mt 25:46; Tit 1:2),
the sin that will never be forgiven (Mark 3:29),
the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal (Heb 6:2),
the fire which is one of the instruments of that judgment (Mt 18:8; Mt 25:41, Jude 7), which fire is unquenchable (Mk 9:43).

 

[Butch5]

Talking about aionios, which is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as in
God (Romans 16:26),
God's power (1 Timothy 6:16),
God's glory (1 Peter 5:10),
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14),
the redemption secured by Christ (Hebrews 9:12),
the resulting salvation of man (Hebrews 5:9),
Christ's kingdom (2 Peter 1:11), which is without end (Luke 1:33),
the life received through faith (John 3:16), whom shall never perish (John 10:28),
the resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1), which is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53), and in which the life of John 3:16 will be finally realized (Matthew 25:46; Titus 1:2),
the sin that will never be forgiven (Mark 3:29),
the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal (Hebrews 6:2),
the fire which is one of the instruments of that judgment (Matthew 18:8; Matthew 25:41, Jude 7), which fire is unquenchable (Mark 9:43).

We can't reason away what Jesus said. He said it ends. That really ends any debate. The translators are wrong. Jesus is correct.

 

[FireDragon76]

There is no Scripture that supports it. It's just another of the pagan doctrines that have been added to Christianity over the centuries. In Scripture the word hell is the grave. It's not a place of eternal torment. Translators have written this doctrine into the Bible by translating the Greek word aion as eternal rather than as age as it should be. About all anyone can give from Scriputre will be misunderstood passages out of context. God said through Ezekiel, ' the soul that sins shall die'. The apostle Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death'. Simple straight forward passages, nothing twisted or convoluted to try and make the Bible say something else.

I am convinced that Paul uses the word "Death" in different senses. Not only physical death, but a "death" or darkening of the mind or soul.

In Ephesians 5:14, he quotes from an early Christian saying or hymn, "Sleeper awake, rise from the dead, and Christ will enlighten you", to encourage Christians to awaken spiritually and repent. That means "death" also has a spiritual connotation in that same verse.

Paul is teaching Christian doctrine through a common trope of the ancient world, called the mystery religion, where the religion is taught through symbols, with exoteric and esoteric aspects or layers of meaning. Exoterically, it might appear he is speaking of something exclusively physical, but he's actually speaking of a spiritual or mystical reality.

 

[Clare73]

We can't reason away what Jesus said. He said it ends. That really ends any debate. The translators are wrong. Jesus is correct.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without merit.

I have presented a Biblical demonstration of the meaning of aionios.
Unless God is not eternal, the translators are correct.
You have not presented a Biblical demonstration addressing it.

The root of a word is not necessarily its full meaning, and sometimes not its meaning at all. Its meaning is determined by how it is used.
I have Biblically demonstrated that anionios is used to mean "everlasting."
You must likewise Biblically demonstrate your assertion if it is to have any merit beyond your personal opinion.

 

[Der Alte]

We can't reason away what Jesus said. He said it ends. That really ends any debate. The translators are wrong. Jesus is correct.

One word in one verse does NOT determine the meaning of a word. Here are ten vss. where Jesus, Himself, defined/described "aionios" as eternal/everlasting/for ever etc.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”
[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

 

[Der Alte]

Aion doesnt mean everlasting. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. Everlasting isn't everlasting if it ends.

"Aion" is a noun and means "eternity." See my previous post above. Jesus often used figures of speech e.g. Herod was not actually a fox when Jesus called him one. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" i.e. stone. The sons of John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. "Aionios" is an adjective and means "eternal." Since aionios is an adjective it can never be translated as "age" which is a noun.

 

[Der Alte]

There is no Scripture that supports it. It's just another of the pagan doctrines that have been added to Christianity over the centuries. In Scripture the word hell is the grave. It's not a place of eternal torment. Translators have written this doctrine into the Bible by translating the Greek word aion as eternal rather than as age as it should be. About all anyone can give from Scriputre will be misunderstood passages out of context. God said through Ezekiel, ' the soul that sins shall die'. The apostle Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death'. Simple straight forward passages, nothing twisted or convoluted to try and make the Bible say something else.

Among the Jews In Israel 800 years +/- before Christ there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which the Jews called both Ge Hinnom and Sheol, which was written in the 225 BC LX and the N.T. as Gehenna and Hades. See this article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Butch5]

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without merit.

I have presented a Biblical demonstration of the meaning of aionios.
Unless God is not eternal, the translators are correct.
You have not presented a Biblical demonstration addressing it.

The root of a word is not necessarily its full meaning, and sometimes not its meaning at all. Its meaning is determined by how it is used.
I have Biblically demonstrated that anionios is used to mean "everlasting."
You must likewise Biblically demonstrate your assertion if it is to have any merit beyond your personal opinion.

Actually, you haven't proved that aionios means eternal. Just because aionios is used of God and God is eternal, doesn't necessitate that aionios means eternal. That's a non Sequitur, it doesn't follow. If I said, God will be around for a while, does that mean a while suddenly means eternity? Of course not. Thr meaning of the word doesn't change when it's used of God. It still mean a while.

As I pointed out Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. If the aion ends it cannot be everlasting.

Here we have Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles, all speaking of the end of the aion. Again, if it ends I can't be evelasting.

Matt 13:39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Matt 13:49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Matt 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matt 28:20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Heb 9:26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

[Butch5]

One word in one verse does NOT determine the meaning of a word. Here are ten vss. where Jesus, Himself, defined/described "aionios" as eternal/everlasting/for ever etc.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”
[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

You haven't taken Luke 1 out of that cut and paste list yet? I've already shown several times that that passage doesn't prove your point. But, since you posted it again, I'll show it again. Here is what you said concerning Luke 1

"In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal."

Your argument is, since the kingdom shall have no end, His reign, (aionios) must also have no end. However, that is not the case as we see from Scripture. Jesus doesn't reign forever.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be tdestroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:22–28.

We see here that Paul tells us that in the end, Jesus will deliver the kingdom over to the Father. Then Jesus Himself will be subject to the Father. So, we see that the Kingdom has no end. However, Jesus doesn't reign over it for eternity. Thus, Luke 1 does not make your point.

considering the other passages, I didn't see anywhere that Jesus said aionios means eternal. It seems to me that you're trying to use those passages to "reason" aion to fit your meaning.

 

[Butch5]

"Aion" is a noun and means "eternity." See my previous post above. Jesus often used figures of speech e.g. Herod was not actually a fox when Jesus called him one. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" i.e. stone. The sons of John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. "Aionios" is an adjective and means "eternal." Since aionios is an adjective it can never be translated as "age" which is a noun.

Aion is the noun, aionios is its adjective form. So, aioniios simply means having qualities of an age.

Yes, Jesus did use figures of speech. However, as has been shown, aion cannot mean eternity, no matter how loudly you yell. It can however, be used as a figure of speech. We've been through this many times. Both olam and aion simply cannot mean eternity since we find them ending all over Scripture. Again, something that ends cannot be eternal.

 

[Butch5]

Among the Jews In Israel 800 years +/- before Christ there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which the Jews called both Ge Hinnom and Sheol, which was written in the 225 BC LX and the N.T. as Gehenna and Hades. See this article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

Of course. They were influenced during the Babylonian captivity. That's the key point. They didn't believe it until they live among the Babylonians. One has to wonder why they didn't believe it beforehand.

However, Babylonian beliefs don't change what the Bible says. Every occurance of the words sheol or hades in the bible can be translated as the grave, and it fits the context perfectly. However, if we try to translate sheol or hades as a place of subterranean eternal torment where ghosts go, there are many places that it just doesn't make sense. That we have so many places where that doesn't make sense shows us that that definition is wrong.

 

[Butch5]

I am convinced that Paul uses the word "Death" in different senses. Not only physical death, but a "death" or darkening of the mind or soul.

In Ephesians 5:14, he quotes from an early Christian saying or hymn, "Sleeper awake, rise from the dead, and Christ will enlighten you", to encourage Christians to awaken spiritually and repent. That means "death" also has a spiritual connotation in that same verse.

Paul is teaching Christian doctrine through a common trope of the ancient world, called the mystery religion, where the religion is taught through symbols, with exoteric and esoteric aspects or layers of meaning. Exoterically, it might appear he is speaking of something exclusively physical, but he's actually speaking of a spiritual or mystical reality.

I agree that Paul uses the word death meatphorically. Ht does it quite often. However, I don't buy into the idea of "spiritual death" I see no basis in Scripture so any such thing.

 

[Der Alte]

You haven't taken Luke 1 out of that cut and paste list yet? I've already shown several times that that passage doesn't prove your point. But, since you posted it again, I'll show it again. Here is what you said concerning Luke 1
"In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal."
Your argument is, since the kingdom shall have no end, His reign, (aionios) must also have no end. However, that is not the case as we see from Scripture. Jesus doesn't reign forever.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be tdestroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:22–28.
We see here that Paul tells us that in the end, Jesus will deliver the kingdom over to the Father. Then Jesus Himself will be subject to the Father. So, we see that the Kingdom has no end. However, Jesus doesn't reign over it for eternity. Thus, Luke 1 does not make your point.
considering the other passages, I didn't see anywhere that Jesus said aionios means eternal. It seems to me that you're trying to use those passages to "reason" aion to fit your meaning.

Even if you were correct, which you aren't, Luke 1:33 is only one vs. which proves nothing about the other 9 vss. Luke 1:33 still says "His [Jesus'] kingdom has no end."

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

And see.

Revelation 11:15
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 22:3
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Revelation 22:5
(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they [God and the lamb] shall reign for ever and ever.​

Your objection to the other vss, is nothing more than "You're wrong! I'm, right. Am too Nuh huh!"

 

[Der Alte]

Of course. They were influenced during the Babylonian captivity. That's the key point. They didn't believe it until they live among the Babylonians. One has to wonder why they didn't believe it beforehand.
However, Babylonian beliefs don't change what the Bible says. Every occurance of the words sheol or hades in the bible can be translated as the grave, and it fits the context perfectly. However, if we try to translate sheol or hades as a place of subterranean eternal torment where ghosts go, there are many places that it just doesn't make sense. That we have so many places where that doesn't make sense shows us that that definition is wrong.

Thank you for these unsupported opinions. Maybe this, could be that or something else. I prefer credible, verifiable, historical evidence. You got any? Jesus would have known about the then existing Jewish belief in hell. Everything Jesus taught on the subject supported the then existing belief.

 

[timothyu]

What is better.. to turn to God out of fear, or to turn to God realizing we are the evil in this world because we put our will ahead of God's and we want to repent/change?

 

[Der Alte]

Aion is the noun, aionios is its adjective form. So, aioniios simply means having qualities of an age.
Yes, Jesus did use figures of speech. However, as has been shown, aion cannot mean eternity, no matter how loudly you yell. It can however, be used as a figure of speech. We've been through this many times. Both olam and aion simply cannot mean eternity since we find them ending all over Scripture. Again, something that ends cannot be eternal.

More empty objections. "You're wrong! I am right! Am too! Nuh huh!" You are incorrect "aionios" is NEVER said to end. Not even one time! And "aion" is NOT said to end "all over scripture." At most 6 times. It is grammatically impossible to translate the adjective "aionios" as ""qualities of an age." Funny the only adjective in the entire NT that requires 4 words, two of which are nouns, to translate into English.
As for Olam AFAIK it is never said to end and it is translated eternal/for ever 300+ times in the Jewish Publication Society translation of the OT.

JPS Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever;[עולם/olam] nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it; and God hath so made it, that men should fear before Him.​

 

[Butch5]

Even if you were correct, which you aren't, Luke 1:33 is only one vs. which proves nothing about the other 9 vss. Luke 1:33 still says "His [Jesus'] kingdom has no end."

Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

And see.

Revelation 11:15​

(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.​

Revelation 22:3​

(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:​

Revelation 22:5​

(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they [God and the lamb] shall reign for ever and ever.​

Your objection to the other vss, is nothing more than "You're wrong! I'm, right. Am too Nuh huh!"

No, on the contrary. I've shown clearly that aion cannot mean eternal. This is really simple. Just explain how something that is eternal can end. If you can do that the problem is solved. However, you can't do that because the very definition of eternal is unending. As I said, aion cannot mean eternal, no matter how loudly you yell. We have plain statements of Scripture from Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles all speaking of the end of the aion. There's no interpretation needed, they are plain statements. As I said, we can't "reason" away what Jesus said. You're simple trying to use inference to prove your point. However, as I said, they are plain statements. No interpretation necessary.

 

[Clare73]

Actually, you haven't proved that aionios means eternal. Just because aionios is used of God and God is eternal, doesn't necessitate that aionios means eternal. That's a non Sequitur, it doesn't follow.

They speech doth betray thy ignorance of Scriptural language.

If I said, God will be around for a while, does that mean a while suddenly means eternity? Of course not. Thr meaning of the word doesn't change when it's used of God. It still mean a while.

As I pointed out Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. If the aion ends it cannot be everlasting.

Again, it's not about aion, it's about aionios.

 

[Butch5]

Thank you for these unsupported opinions. Maybe this, could be that or something else. I prefer credible, verifiable, historical evidence. You got any? Jesus would have known about the then existing Jewish belief in hell. Everything Jesus taught on the subject supported the then existing belief.

It's interesting that you keep mentioning opinions, as that's what you've given. You really don't believe a history book is verifiable evidence do you? What verifiable evidence have you presented? You've given inferences that you've drawn from Scripture, but they're only evidence if you understand them correctly. And, as I've shown from Luke 1 you don't understand them correctly.

You're methodology, pitting Scripture against Scripture is flawed. That's not how one comes to a proper understanding of Scripture.

As far as "cedible" evidence, as I've pointed out in the past, you only accept evidence that you agree with, thus nothing is credible. Take for instance our past conversation where you insisted that the Jewish Encyclopedia was credible evidence. However when I used the Jewish Encyclopedia to prove a point you disagreed with you dismissed it. Suddenly it wasn't credible evidence. So, it would seem the only credible evidence is that which you post. Anything from others isn't credible.

 

[Butch5]

The idea that the wicked are tormented forever, is not only not a Biblical concepted, it's based on a false doctrine. The source of the eternal torment doctrine is the false "Immortal Soul" doctrine. The idea that man has an immortal soul that lives on after death is not a Biblical one. It is a pagan one. It was believed by most pagan nations and it was also the beliefs of the Greeks in Jesus' day. The majority view in Greek Philosophy was that the flesh was evil and that the goal of man was to escape the flesh and have the "soul" ascend into the heavens. This is the idea that eventually got merged into Christianity. However, it is not the teaching of Scripture. Because this doctrine says that man lives on after death the wicked will live on after death. Well, the wicked have to go somewhere. Thus we have the birth of eternal hell and eternal torment.