Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Butch5]

They speech doth betray thy ignorance of Scriptural language.

Again, it's not about aion, it's about aionios.

Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.

 

[Der Alte]

There is no Scripture that supports it. It's just another of the pagan doctrines that have been added to Christianity over the centuries. In Scripture the word hell is the grave. It's not a place of eternal torment. Translators have written this doctrine into the Bible by translating the Greek word aion as eternal rather than as age as it should be. About all anyone can give from Scriputre will be misunderstood passages out of context. God said through Ezekiel, ' the soul that sins shall die'. The apostle Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death'. Simple straight forward passages, nothing twisted or convoluted to try and make the Bible say something else.

Among the Jews In Israel 800 years +/- before Christ there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which the Jews called both Ge Hinnom and Sheol, which was written in the 225 BC LXX and the N.T. as Gehenna and Hades. See this article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Der Alte]

No, on the contrary. I've shown clearly that aion cannot mean eternal. This is really simple. Just explain how something that is eternal can end. If you can do that the problem is solved. However, you can't do that because the very definition of eternal is unending. As I said, aion cannot mean eternal, no matter how loudly you yell. We have plain statements of Scripture from Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles all speaking of the end of the aion. There's no interpretation needed, they are plain statements. As I said, we can't "reason" away what Jesus said. You're simple trying to use inference to prove your point. However, as I said, they are plain statements. No interpretation necessary.

Now the other shoe.
Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [21] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 18 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[23]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[24]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[25]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

[Der Alte]

Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.

That is incorrect. Run and ran are both verbs. However, aion is a noun and aionios is an adverb. Neither nouns nor adjectives have tenses.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

The age versus agelong, etc

 

[Der Alte]

It's interesting that you keep mentioning opinions, as that's what you've given. You really don't believe a history book is verifiable evidence do you? What verifiable evidence have you presented? You've given inferences that you've drawn from Scripture, but they're only evidence if you understand them correctly. And, as I've shown from Luke 1 you don't understand them correctly.
You're methodology, pitting Scripture against Scripture is flawed. That's not how one comes to a proper understanding of Scripture.
As far as "cedible" evidence, as I've pointed out in the past, you only accept evidence that you agree with, thus nothing is credible. Take for instance our past conversation where you insisted that the Jewish Encyclopedia was credible evidence. However when I used the Jewish Encyclopedia to prove a point you disagreed with you dismissed it. Suddenly it wasn't credible evidence. So, it would seem the only credible evidence is that which you post. Anything from others isn't credible.

I have done a word study of 24 vss. All you have done is say "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh." If what I said was wrong Jesus could not have said as He did twice "aionios life" means "shall not perish."

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

And as I have said "aionios" is an adjective it cannot be translated as "age" or any combination of words containing "age."

 

[Der Alte]

It's interesting that you keep mentioning opinions, as that's what you've given. You really don't believe a history book is verifiable evidence do you? What verifiable evidence have you presented? You've given inferences that you've drawn from Scripture, but they're only evidence if you understand them correctly. And, as I've shown from Luke 1 you don't understand them correctly.
You're methodology, pitting Scripture against Scripture is flawed. That's not how one comes to a proper understanding of Scripture.
As far as "cedible" evidence, as I've pointed out in the past, you only accept evidence that you agree with, thus nothing is credible. Take for instance our past conversation where you insisted that the Jewish Encyclopedia was credible evidence. However when I used the Jewish Encyclopedia to prove a point you disagreed with you dismissed it. Suddenly it wasn't credible evidence. So, it would seem the only credible evidence is that which you post. Anything from others isn't credible.

I have done a word study of 24 vss. Your argument from Luke does NOT disprove what I said. All you have done is say "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh." If what I said was wrong Jesus could not have said, as He did three times, "aionios zoe"/eternal life" means "shall not perish." John 3:15-16, John 10:28.
Please show me where I "dismissed" the Jewish Encyclopedia. when you quoted it.

 

[Der Alte]

The idea that the wicked are tormented forever, is not only not a Biblical concepted. It's based on a false doctrine. The source of the eternal torment doctrine is the false "Immortal Soul" doctrine. The idea that man has a soul that lives on after death is not a Biblical one. It is a pagan one. It was believed by most pagan nations and it was also the beliefs of the Greeks in Jesus' day. The majority view in Greek Philosophy was that the flesh was evil and that the goal of man was to escape the flesh and have the "soul" ascend into the heavens. This is the idea that eventually got merged into Christianity. However, it is not the teaching of Scripture. Because this doctrine says that man lives on after death the wicked will live on after death. Well, the wicked have to go somewhere. Thus we have the birth of eternal hell and eternal torment.

Was Jesus lying?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[Butch5]

I have done a word study of 24 vss. All you have done is say "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh." If what I said was wrong Jesus could not have said as He did twice "aionios life" means "shall not perish."

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

And as I have said "aionios" is an adjective it cannot be translated as "age" or any combination of words containing "age."

Again, as I said to Clare, just because the two are juxtaposed doesn't necessitate that aionios mean eternal. I've given you several passages that show plainly and unequivocally that aion cannot mean eternal. You made no attempt whatsoever to try to explain how those passages could be understood differently. I've asked you to show a passage where someone says aionios means eternal. You haven't. That's because there is none. Since there is no passage of Scripture that says aionios means eternal, you must "INFER" your argument. That means "EVERYTHING" in your argument is an inference that you are drawing from Scripture. On the other hand, I have posted several passages that show plainly that the aion ends.

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The word "world" is aion. It is properly translated age. Jesus said the harvest is the end of the aion. It ends.


Matthew 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

The word "world" here is the word aion. Jesus said the angels would sever the just from the wicked at the end of the aion. It ends.

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The word "world" here is the word aion. The apostles asked when the end of the aion would be. It ends.

Matthew 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The word "world" here is aion. Jesus said He would be with them in their mission til the end of the aion. It ends.

Hebrews 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 13:39–Heb 9:26.

The word "world" here is the word aion. Here Paul says that Jesus has appeared in the end of the aion. It ends.

There are no inferences there. There are no interpretations there. They are plain statements of Scripture that show plainly that the aion ends. The English word eternity, by definition, means never ending. Now, it should be clear that something that ends cannot be never-ending.

You said aionios can't be translated as age or any combination of words containing age. That's simply incorrect.

25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent, 26and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith— 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to him be glory to the ages. Amen.

Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997), Ro 16:25–27.

The word ages is aionios.

 

[Butch5]

Was Jesus lying?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

No, Jesus isn't lying. You're just misunderstanding His words. Those on the left will go into age enduring punishment. There's nothing eternal here.

You keep quoting scholars. Why not accept the words of the greatest Scholar that ever lived, Jesus? He said the aion ends. I'll toss your question back at you. Did Jesus lie?

If you didn't hold the false doctrine of the "Immortal Soul", then you wouldn't hold the false doctrine of eternal torment. This is why proof texting is so dangerous. One doctrine builds on another. So, if the foundation is wrong, the whole building is wrong. Suppose for a second that man was not immortal and when he died, he was dead. What would happen to those who were thrown into the Lake of Fire? They would die, correct? There would be no eternal torment. So, this is all based on the doctrine of the "Immortal Soul" which is a doctrine that was held by the pagan nations and introduced into the Christian Faith through its interaction with Greeks.

 

[Butch5]

That is incorrect. Run and ran are both verbs. However, aion is a noun and aionios is an adverb. Neither nouns nor adjectives have tenses.

It's not incorrect. Ran and run are both forms of the same word. Aion and aionos are both forms of the same word. They don't change meaning they just change spelling. If I say, I will run, or I say, I ran, the action is the same. The only difference is the time when the action happened.

 

[Clare73]

Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.

Which affects its timing.

 

[Butch5]

Now the other shoe.
Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [21] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 18 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21​

(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21​

(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20​

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

[14]Romans 16:26​

(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18​

(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;​

(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1​

(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16​

(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8​

(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7​

(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.​

(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21​

(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[23]1 Peter 1:23​

(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …​

1 Peter 1:25​

(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[24]1 Peter 5:10​

(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[25]Revelation 14:11​

(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

No, Paul doesn't define it as enteral. The translators define it as eternal. You're trying to give your argument a false sense of authority. nowhere does Paul state that aionios means eternal.

Why don't you just accept what Jesus said?

 

[Butch5]

Which affects its timing.

With ran and run, yes. In the case of aion which is a noun and aionios, which is an adjective it's a little different. It's more like spirit and spiritual. An adjective gives qualities of the noun it modifies. For instance, spiritual gives qualities of the spirit. if someone is said to be spiritual, they are said to have qualities of the spirit. So, aionios would be to have qualities of the age.

 

[Clare73]

With ran and run, yes. In the case of aion which is a noun and aionios, which is an adjective it's a little different. It's more like spirit and spiritual. An adjective gives qualities of the noun it modifies. For instance, spiritual gives qualities of the spirit. if someone is said to be spiritual, they are said to have qualities of the spirit. So, aionios would be to have qualities of the age.

Not in the NT, where "spiritual" is always of the Holy Spirit.

So eternal God means God has the qualities of the age?

 

[Butch5]

Not in the NT, where "spiritual" is always of the Holy Spirit.

So eternal God means God has the qualities of the age?
What does that mean?

I 1 Cor 3 Paul speaks of people being spiritual.

You say the eternal God but the Scripture says the aionios God.

 

[Clare73]

I 1 Cor 3 Paul speaks of people being spiritual.

Yes, characteristics of the Holy Spirit rather than of the world.

You say the eternal God but the Scripture says the aionios God.

So aionios God has the qualities of the age?
What does that mean?

And the aionios kingdom (2 Peter 1:11), which is without end (Lke1:33),
the aionios life received through faith (John 3:16), whom shall never perish (Jn 10:28),
the aionios resurrection body (2 Co 5:1), which is immortal (1 Co 15:53), and in which the life of Jn 3:16 will be finally realized (Mt 25:46; Tit 1:2),
the aionios sin that will never be forgiven (Mark 3:29),
the aionios judgment of God, from which there is no appeal (Heb 6:2),
the aionios fire which is one of the instruments of that judgment (Mt 18:8; Mt 25:41, Jude 7), which fire is unquenchable (Mk 9:43)?
What do these aionios things mean in terms of duration?

 

[Butch5]

The reason we see these back-and-forth discussions is because we don't study the Bible as a whole. We're taught to proof text passages of Scripture to make a point. But here we have a dilemma. As we've seen, aion can't possibly mean forever, so why is it translated as forever so often? It's because translators don't understand how the word is being used. It's really not hard to figure out if we let the Scriptures show us how it is used. The problem is that translators already have their understanding of Scripture when they translate, and it influences their translation. This is called translator bias. One question arises, if aion doesn't mean eternal, then how do we know if we have enteral life? Well, we have to find Scripture that describes an unending life without using the word aion. We do have Scripture that shows us that and it comes from none other than Jesus Himself.

The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 20:34–36.

We see here from Jesus own words that the children of the Resurrection die no more. That is the definition of eternal life. They die no more. So, we see that those who acheive the Resurrection die no more, they have eternal life. So, here we have eternal life explained without the use of the word aion.

But, what's interesting here is that Jesus said, 'the children of this aion'. Yes, that's right. Jesus speaks of this aion and another aion to come. This once again shows that the aion ends We have one now and one to follow. Notice also that etneral life comes in the next aion, when the Resurrection occurs. Earlier in Luke Jesus made this statement.

28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee. 29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 18:28–30.

Again, the word "world" is aion. Jesus said they would receive more in this present time and in the aion, age, to come aionios life.

In one passage Jesus said that those accounted worthy to attain that aion, age, and the Resurrection would never die. In the other passage Jesus said they would receive aionios, age enduring life in the aion, age, to come. In this second passage it would appear that aionios means eternal, however, we've seen plenty of times that it can't mean eternal. So what are we to make of this. Aionios is an adjective, it gives qualities of the age. It's age enduring. In the case of life it's age enduring life. So how can age enduring life be eternal if aion cannot mean eternal? The answer is in Jesus' words. He said they would receive aionios, age enduring life in the age to come, not this age. Jesus and the aposltes all spoke of the end of this age. Jesus is here speaking of the age to come. He also said that those who achieve "that aion, age" shall never die. So, if in that age they never die, and in that age they have aionios life, the obvious answer is that the age to come doesn't end, it is eternal. If the coming age is eternal then those who achieve it would no longer die and they would have aionios, age enduring life, without forcing aion to mean eternal.

That's how we can understand the word aion in all of it's contexts and have it harmonize with all of its occurrences.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, characteristics of the Holy Spirit rather than of the world.

So aionios God has the qualities of the age?
What does that mean?

And the aionios kingdom (2 Peter 1:11), which is without end (Lke1:33),
the aionios life received through faith (John 3:16), whom shall never perish (Jn 10:28),
the aionios resurrection body (2 Co 5:1), which is immortal (1 Co 15:53), and in which the life of Jn 3:16 will be finally realized (Mt 25:46; Tit 1:2),
the aionios sin that will never be forgiven (Mark 3:29),
the aionios judgment of God, from which there is no appeal (Heb 6:2),
the aionios fire which is one of the instruments of that judgment (Mt 18:8; Mt 25:41, Jude 7), which fire is unquenchable (Mk 9:43)?
What do these aionios things mean in terms of duration?

It's explained in post 138

 

[Mark Quayle]

Aion and aionios are the same word. It's like run and ran, they both mean the same thing, it's just that one is past tense and the other is not.

They are of the same root. They do not mean the same thing.

Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, …

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting. ...