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Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

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ThreeAM

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JimfromOhio said:
:doh: :doh:

Either let it go so you can have true fellowship with other Christians that follow their own Sabbath even you don't agree with :clap:

or

treat them like enemies and continue to judge them for not keeping the Sabbath your conscience tells you to believe in. :scratch:

JimFromOhio said:
forgot... today is sabbath day for those who supports legalism sabbath day. None of SDA members are online. I will wait until another day to discuss this.

So Jim just who is judging whom here? Sure looks like YOU are judging all the SDA's members over a day here. If you believe in the Sabbath or not is between you and the God that will ultimately judge you. It only our job to try to tell others what God's word says.

 
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ThreeAM

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applepowerpc said:
I observe the Sabbath, just not on the day others may approve of. I don't care what they think. In fact, the Bible explicitly tells us not to care:


Col 3:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.


In my book, I simply rearrange the Julian calendar to put Sunday at the end, after Saturday. There, it's the 7th day. End of story.

The problem is God doesn't rearrange the calendar. In fact He did not give the WHOLE nation of Israel manna on the Sabbath every week for 40 years. He did not rearrange the calendar so different people could have their own "Sabbath" on the day of their choice.
 
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woobadooba

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applepowerpc said:
Julius Caesar, however, does. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, though. And I'm entitled to mine.

It would make no difference if the calander was changed 1,000,000 times, the weekly cycle of 7 days would remain the same.

And since you have no problem agreeing that Sunday is the first day of the week, why is it so difficult to admit that Saturday is the seventh day?

Thus the calendar argument does not work.
 
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applepowerpc

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Thus the calendar argument does not work.

Huh? I never said I agreed that Sunday is the first day of the week. I said the calendar argument is a moot point. I don't need to argue anything, the Bible expressly states God's stand in the matter:

Col. 3:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

If the Bible doesn't have the authority over you as you pretend it does, keep on arguing. As for me, God said I don't need your approval. We're done.
 
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ThreeAM

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applepowerpc said:
Julius Caesar, however, does. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, though. And I'm entitled to mine.

Julius did not rearrange the weekly cycle however.

Well my opinion is also the opinion of noted chronologist from the Royal Observatory and the U.S. Naval Observatory.

Jews all over the world worship on the same day as the Sabbath Christ who never sinned and never violated the 7th day Sabbath was a Jew.
 
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Child_of_Yahweh

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Remember THE Sabbath Day to keep it holy. (This means THE Sabbath day that Yahweh created for man. Yahweh has a reason for everything and it could very well be that not only did He want us to keep this day holy to remember him but also because he knew that our human flesh "needed" a break from work at least once a week. This does not mean that we are not to still worship Him everyday but ESPECIALLY on this ONE day a week we should put EVERYTHING else asise and focus on HIS word).
Six days shall thou labor, and do all your work, but THE seventh day is a Sabbath of Yahweh your Elohim. (These are the words of Yahweh Almighty. HE spoke them and COMMANDED us to do this. We are not to do it at OUR convience but to obey HIS commandment)
On this Sabbath you are to do NO work, nor anyone that works FOR you or even a stranger that may be in or near your home. For in 6 days Yahweh made Heaven and Earth, the sea and all that is in them, and then rested the seventh day. (Does one think that Yahweh was so tired that He could not do anymore? Certainly Not! But He knew that we humans would need a break from work.)
Therefore, Yahweh rested the seventh day and HALLOWED it. (He made this ONE day holy. We are to honor him and respect hiw commandment for He made this day for US.)


The above being said, why then do the majority of people ignore this commandment you asked? Well why do the majority also ignore the feats that were commanded of Yahweh's people to keep. We were commanded to keep His feasts and were even given the exact day and month as to when. We wre NOT to "make up" false "Holidays" to keep. These were NOT in the bible, but His feasts INSTEAD.
 
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JimfromOhio

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ThreeAM said:


It only our job to try to tell others what God's word says.


And some of us have responded with what God's Word says as well. Sounds like we are either selective hearing or conscience minded regarding the issue.
 
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JimfromOhio

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"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" . Because God is God, He is not Himself selected by that succession of consecutive changes we call time. God dwells in eternity but time dwells in God. He has already lived all our tomorrows as He has lived all our yesterdays. "This is the day the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it." (Psalm 118:24). In the New Testament, Paul also gave us insight on who God is. . . . And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ (Colossians 2:15-17).
 
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woobadooba

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applepowerpc said:
If the Bible doesn't have the authority over you as you pretend it does, keep on arguing. As for me, God said I don't need your approval. We're done.

I don't like your attitude. You need to be careful about the words that you throw around.

You also need to use caution in making conclusions on texts that are clearly not applicable to the context.
 
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ThreeAM

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JimfromOhio said:
And some of us have responded with what God's Word says as well. Sounds like we are either selective hearing or conscience minded regarding the issue.


Yes you should consider not selectively disregrading God's commands. If 9 of the commandments are still in effect all 10 are still in effect even the one that starts with the word "Remember"
 
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rstrats

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Once again, this is why there really is no point in debating doctrine with the folks from organizations that believe that their leaders have the authority to change/add to the Holy Scriptures. The only thing that can be addressed is the validity of their belief with regard to the setting of their extra-biblical doctrines.
 
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JimfromOhio

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ThreeAM said:
Yes you should consider not selectively disregrading God's commands. If 9 of the commandments are still in effect all 10 are still in effect even the one that starts with the word "Remember"

There are two interpretations of Sabbath:
Jewish's Tradition: Saturday
Genesis: 7th Day
 
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ThreeAM

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JimfromOhio said:
There are two interpretations of Sabbath:
Jewish's Tradition: Saturday
Genesis: 7th Day

Are you saying Christ did not keep the 7th day Sabbath?

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exd 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

[Now listen to the reason God gives for keeping the Sabbath Holy]

Exd 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Since Christ never sinned we KNOW He observed the 7th day Sabbath of the 10 commandments. Jews all over the world have been doing the same thing continuosly since before the time of Christ until this very day. Chronologist tell us that there has been no change in the weekly cycle since long before the Christian era. If you observe Sabbath from sundown friday to sundown Saturday evening ....you observe the same 7th day of the week as Christ did.
 
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jochanaan

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Nightfire said:
Cliff2, jochanaan and BrightCandle,

Why is it in regards to the Sabbath that you suddenly choose to stare yourself blind against the "chapter and verse" of the Bible, and ignore its Spirit as if there were no such thing and as if it didn't influence your thinking about other matters?...

But for you who emphasize the Saturday as an everlasting Sabbath, and who define holiness in old covenant terms, I ask to dispel the appearance of hypocrisy: where is the "chapter and verse" that commands you to stop keeping every command that was ever given to Israel for keeping the Sabbath (or any of the other 613 laws, for that matter)?
Penetrating questions.

First, I for one do not, and never have, said that if a person does not keep the Sabbath, he is not a Christian and not saved. In fact, I have said the opposite several times. Nor do I deny that the Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of His people and helps us properly interpret the words of God, in the Bible and elsewhere.

However--and this may be where I differ from many--I believe that the Bible contains the Word of God, inspired through His prophets and apostles and most particularly through His Son Jesus of Nazareth the Anointed One. Most Christians would agree with me, with some going even farther and saying the Bible IS the flawless Word of God. Thus, any revelation that seems to be from the Holy Spirit must be compared with the Bible, since God does not change.

As for the 613 Levitical laws, they are a matter of some dispute, just as the Sabbath is. Yet Paul makes it very clear in Galatians 5:2 that circumcision is not required for Gentile Christians. "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." And Jesus himself said, "'Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him "unclean"? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.' (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean.')" --Mark 7:18-19. That's two of the Levitical laws; it is probable that others are not strictly binding on Christians, Jew or Gentile.

But there is little controversy over the Ten Commandments--at least, not over nine of them. If someone says that one of the Ten doesn't need to be followed literally, I want to see chapter and verse. Finding no specific revocation, I hold to the understanding I have lived with most of my adult life. Again, I condemn no one. You are all my brothers in Jesus, and I look forward to meeting you in Heaven. But I will continue to defend the Sabbath as well as I can.

God bless you all!:wave:
 
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rstrats

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jochanaan ,


re: "And Jesus himself said, ‘Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body. (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean.')’ --Mark 7:18-19. That's two of the Levitical laws; it is probable that others are not strictly binding on Christians, Jew or Gentile. "


I assume that you when you quote the parenthetical note from your translation, "(Thus he declared all foods clean.)", at the end of verse 19, that you are suggesting that the Messiah was saying that unclean animals had been made clean. Even if the parenthetical entry is authentic - some translations such as the "King James" and the "Interlinear Greek-English New Testament" don’t have it - I am not aware of any scripture that ever refers to unclean animals as "food". Thus He could only be saying that clean animals would not be made unclean by eating with unwashed hands. However, the context of verses 1-20, has to do with the Pharisees’ practice of always washing their hands before eating. The subject is not clean and unclean animals, but unclean hands. The Messiah showed that unclean thoughts are the things that most defile a man, not just unwashed hands. After explaining that inner defilement of the mind is far worse than defilement of the body, the Messiah concluded, 19"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness blasphemies. 20"These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
The Pharisees watched every word and movement that the Messiah made. They falsely accused Him of breaking the Sabbath, and claimed that He blasphemed when He said God was His Father John 5:18. But never did any Jew accuse the Messiah of eating, or advocating the eating of unclean animals.
 
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Cliff2

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Nightfire said:
Cliff2, jochanaan and BrightCandle,

Why is it in regards to the Sabbath that you suddenly choose to stare yourself blind against the "chapter and verse" of the Bible, and ignore its Spirit as if there were no such thing and as if it didn't influence your thinking about other matters? Did Jesus also send the Spirit out among his flock to "remind and teach" them, or just his recorded words? How did Christians manage to believe Paul's words, do you think? Which chapters and verses did he quote to prove God commanded circumcision to be discontinued, if that's all you would have accepted as his audience?

You have been incited against Christians who have a different understanding of the Sabbath, the same way Christians were sometimes incited against Jews. But while you are quick to point out anti-Semitism, and to see it as a reason for this "heresy", as Dr Bacchiocchi and Ellen White did, you are blind to your own judgements, even though they are having exactly the same effect on the unity of genuine Christians.

You demand texts to prove strawmen - the strawman in this case being that Jesus came to fulfil the law with more laws, "commands" as you call them. Another strawman is that you keep the 4th commandment better on the Saturday than anybody could keep it on the Sunday or any other day of the week - as if your memory of the heavenly Sabbath is better on Saturday than someone who remembers it with exactly the same spirit on any other day.

The clear command Christ gave was to love one another (John 13:34), and Paul affirmed this: "for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law" (Rom. 13:8). You love to quote Jesus: "If you love me, you will obey what I command", but I haven't seen one of you finish with his words: "This is my command: Love each other" (John 15:17).

It seems you wish to make the Sabbath a stumbling block for people who wish to enter God's kingdom, the same way the Pharisees did. As if you cannot - may not - love those who don't keep the Sabbath as you do, as if they have to enter God's rest by way of a particular day, and not by way of a particular person: Jesus Christ. You deny that it pertains to salvation, but your actions say something else. Midnightcry said something earlier: "I think this will be a dividing issue in the church in the future." Only if you want it to; only if you think it should. Only if you drive it like a wedge between Christians (calling one side "apostate" and even "children of Babylon", which is what Ellen White believed, like Joseph Smith and other restorationists). The implications to those who you say are not keeping the whole law are clear, even if it's hard for you to say it out loud. The purpose of the law was to discern between those who are guilty or innocent, between the righteous and the condemned. But if your claims are sincere - that our salvation is not at stake - then the issue isn't the law at all, and it is a question of hearts and minds: how we understand the significance of what Christ did and consistently apply it to our lives. Then the motivation for driving in this wedge isn't "the law" or your righteousness and our alleged apostasy, but a simple lack of trust - and I would even say lack of faith - in the incredible and complete efficacy of God's grace.

Like I said before: the moral content of the Sabbath is Christ, the One who gives rest to those who are burdened. That is something that not a Sunday, not a Saturday, nor a whole weekend or months of rest can provide to someone who is pursued by sin and condemned under the law. Israel could rest from their slavery in Egypt, in recognition of God's grace, but they could not rest from sin. You would have us commemorate their rest, as if God never provided something better and everlasting, a Sabbath not contained in any chapter or verse or law, but that every chapter and verse and law in the Bible sought to achieve.

I'm not making a call for mindless tolerance. Their is certainly no place for lawlessness in Christ. But for you who emphasize the Saturday as an everlasting Sabbath, and who define holiness in old covenant terms, I ask to dispel the appearance of hypocrisy: where is the "chapter and verse" that commands you to stop keeping every command that was ever given to Israel for keeping the Sabbath (or any of the other 613 laws, for that matter)?

I can't speak for anyone else but we need to be very careful that when we reply on the spirit for what we believe that we rely on the right spirit.

We are told to test the spirits. So that means there is more than one spirit. It also means that the test we apply here is Biblical.

"To the law and to the testimony..."

In other words it is the Bible that we come back to.

If the spirit is telling us to do something that is not Biblical then we need to leave it and stay with the Bible.
 
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Cliff2

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But there is little controversy over the Ten Commandments--at least, not over nine of them. If someone says that one of the Ten doesn't need to be followed literally, I want to see chapter and verse. Finding no specific revocation, I hold to the understanding I have lived with most of my adult life. Again, I condemn no one. You are all my brothers in Jesus, and I look forward to meeting you in Heaven. But I will continue to defend the Sabbath as well as I can.

Amen!
 
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JimfromOhio

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God is proud of you all for following traditions!! :thumbsup:

Colossians 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Galatians 1:14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

In Romans 14:5-6: "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it."

The Message: Matthew 12:7 Jesus said: 'If you had any idea what this Scripture meant--"I prefer a flexible heart to an inflexible ritual'--you wouldn't be nitpicking like this. 8The Son of Man is no lackey to the Sabbath; he's in charge." '

NIV: Matthew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

NKJV: But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.
 
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