Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

jochanaan · Mar 29, 2006

kw5kw said:
We lie to ourselves that were perfect, that we dont lie, we dont covet, we arent prideful...Only when Jesus comes and establishes His kingdom here on earth will we, who are His saints, become sinless. The resttheyll be thrown into the lake of fire for eternal judgment and damnation!

So should we just throw up our hands and "continue in sin, that grace may abound?" Paul certainly didn't think so; in fact, he said "God forbid." (Romans 6:1,2)

wanderphilos · Mar 29, 2006

Even though Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses I was under the impression that the Commandments were still meant to be followed with the understanding that when we transgress we have Christ as our advocate/sacrifice to forgive our transgressions, but we are to strive to keep the commandments. Unlike the Jews who have to sacrifice a lamb at passover ever year...we have one sacrifice for all time...? Am I wrong?

kw5kw · Mar 29, 2006

jochanaan said:
So should we just throw up our hands and "continue in sin, that grace may abound?" Paul certainly didn't think so; in fact, he said "God forbid." (Romans 6:1,2)

You're right. As Christians we abide in Him. We have the Holy Spirit to guide us, unfortuantelly we still have our "free will" and disreguard Him at times. This is a sad but true fact.

The positive fact here is, we can be assured in our salvation... rember Paul said also in Romans vii:15,16 that he does not do what he wants to do, but does what he doesn't want to. He also says in 1Co. vi:12 and again in 1Co. x:23 that "all things were lawful for him. but not all things were benifical." Both in meats and other things. And, not withstanding the great passage in 2Co.12:7-10 where Paul is explaining about his thorn--his 'skalops'--that was the messenger of Satan, what was the LORD"s reply? He said: "My grace is sufficient for thee: fo rmy strength is made perfect in weakness." So, even when Paul sinned, Jesus' grace was sufficient for him--AND for us!

We'll all slip! My point is that if you're saved, not to worry about your salvation and become a slave to sin. For if you do, then sin becomes your master and has dominion over you. And we're no longer a slave to sin. Romans vi:14.

cygnusx1 · Mar 29, 2006

BrightCandle said:
Sin is defined in the Bible as lawlessness. See I John 3:4. And John also states that those who continue to sin or be lawless do not know God. If you do not know God, who do you think has power over you?

Jesus of course
what you and many others fail to realise is that sin did not begin in Exodus with the giving of the Law .

Sin existed (as it does now) before the Law came ........... in fact the Law came to increase sin !

Now if men could serve The Lord between Genesis and Exodus without the Law , then what makes you think Christians cannot also on a much more profound level.

jochanaan · Mar 29, 2006

kw5kw said:
We'll all slip! My point is that if you're saved, not to worry about your salvation and become a slave to sin.

Do you still, after all I've said here, think that I keep the Sabbath because I'm worried about my salvation? Then you've missed the point of all I've said. Let me repeat it once more: I do NOT keep the Sabbath in order to be saved. I keep it because God has already saved me through Jesus' sacrifice. I keep it in remembrance of His creative, redemptive, finished work. My Sabbath-keeping is a result of my salvation--not a prerequisite. Not works-righteousness--loving obedience.

Nor do I think that those who do not keep the Sabbath cannot be saved. The Lord will save whom He will, and I believe He will not be too severe on those who sincerely believe Sunday is the Sabbath, or that the New Testament frees us from this "obligation." That does not change my understanding and practice.

(I apologize for the tone of this post; but I have had to fight off charges of legalism and works righteousness one too many times here. Those who have read my thoughts regarding women, hair, and nakedness know how little of a legalist I am! )

jochanaan · Mar 29, 2006

cygnusx1 said:
Jesus of course
what you and many others fail to realise is that sin did not begin in Exodus with the giving of the Law .

Sin existed (as it does now) before the Law came ........... in fact the Law came to increase sin !

Now if men could serve The Lord between Genesis and Exodus without the Law , then what makes you think Christians cannot also on a much more profound level.

I would say rather that the Law came to show sin as sin, not to increase it. And of course we can and should serve God on a much more profound level than mere law-observance. Yet should we disregard the Law, which Yahweh Himself carved on a stone? I have never heard the arguments against the Fourth Commandment applied to any other of the Ten.

JimfromOhio · Mar 29, 2006

Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1....In the New Testament, Christ through His death and resurrection, every legal hindrance has been met and satisfied. The Ten Commandments still comprises the moral principles that are the will of God for His people and God's moral will for His people has not changed.

From A.W. Tozer

Click to expand...

No Bible-taught Christian can allow himself to live in bondage to days and times and seasons (Colossians 2:1617; Romans 14:410; 2 Corinthians 3:518). He knows he is free from the Law, and the Judaizing brethren who seek to rivet a yoke on his neck will not have much success. But he nevertheless appreciates the value of one day in seven to devote to prayer and praise. And since Christ arose from the dead on the first day, the Bible-loving man will see the spiritual appropriateness of the first day as the Christians voluntary sabbath day.

BrightCandle · Mar 30, 2006

cygnusx1 said:
Jesus of course
what you and many others fail to realise is that sin did not begin in Exodus with the giving of the Law .

Sin existed (as it does now) before the Law came ........... in fact the Law came to increase sin !

Now if men could serve The Lord between Genesis and Exodus without the Law , then what makes you think Christians cannot also on a much more profound level.

Paul stated in the NT that without Law, there could be no sin. God's law was broken when Adam and Eve sinned, that's why they were cast out of the garden of Eden. They broke the first commandment when they choose to follow the Devil's way instead of God's way. The Bible also states that when we continue in sin we become a servant to sin. The Sabbath was indeed in exsistence in the garden of Eden before sin entered the human race see Genesis 2.

BrightCandle · Mar 30, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1....In the New Testament, Christ through His death and resurrection, every legal hindrance has been met and satisfied. The Ten Commandments still comprises the moral principles that are the will of God for His people and God's moral will for His people has not changed.

So you do agree that the moral principles of the Ten Commandments still stand in our time? Will you then be keeping the 7th day Sabbath starting this coming Friday at sundown?

YahwehisHisname · Mar 30, 2006

kw5kw said:
THOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THY LORD THY GOD IN VAIN!
What happens when we say; Oh, God! What happens when we say Jesus! Do you say that when something happens to you? Its not just saying the curse words that we all know, but the simple utterance of: My God! that we hear everyone say every day!

That is senseless. A name cannot be taken. His name is not God or lord. And in vain either designates a failure or an over inflated ego. Let's see what He wrote with His own finger.

You shall not nasa (lift up, accept, advance, bear, tolerate, or pardon) the shem (position, individual nature, designation, honor, authority, character, mark, fame, name, prominence, reputation, and report) of YHWH (Yahweh) your elohiym (Supreme and Mighty One, Deity) in shav (a destructive, evil, devastating, desolate (as in separated from, abandoned, or forsaken), wasteful, beguiling, immoral, idolatrous, false, deceptive, or dishonest) way. For Yahweh will not naqah (cleanse him, bare him, exonerate him, acquit him, hold him blameless, or leave him unpunished) who nasa (lifts up, accepts, advances, bears, tolerates, or pardons) His shem (position, individual nature, designation, honor, authority, character, mark, fame, name, prominence, reputation, and report) being used in shav (a destructive, evil, devastating, desolate, wasteful, beguiling, immoral, idolatrous, false, deceptive, or dishonest) way. (Exodus 20:7) We are not to tolerate anything that is false, destructive, or deceitful when attributed to His shem. Tolerating evil comes from man, not God.

kw5kw said:
REMEMBER THE SABBATH AND KEEP IT HOLY!
Do we do that? Do you mow the grass on Sunday? Do you go to a movie on Sunday? Do you honor your God on Sunday? Not just go to church, but do you rest on Sunday as was commanded? Do you paint that room? Do you work in the garden? All of these were forbidden by the LAW of Moses (well connect the dots later).

Sorry but again you rely on mans feeble translations. This commandment is the wordiest so rest assured that it has a deeper meaning than "kick back". It doesn't say anything about being unproductive, and doesn't mention going to services. But the main problem with your statement is that His Sabbath is on Saturday not Sunday. The spoiled, rotten children that we are, have edited His word to fool you. You may want to connect those dots.

YahwehisHisname · Mar 30, 2006

kw5kw said:
The LORD was raised on the first day of the week.

Errr....so? He went to the lepers house on a Tuesday. Perhaps we can declared that day set apart, and consecrated by Yahweh also. Let's make God in the way that is convenient for us, shall we? The choice is simple; Follow Yahweh or follow man.

Oblio said:
Uh, there was a little occurance known as the Resurrection.

Yep. HalaluYah. Problem is.......we are not instructed to change His sabbath from the 7th to the 1rst day(But we are told what the consequence is for tinkering with His scriptures will be). Unfortunately, we are lied to in our churches so we miss the entire grand plan by replacing His days to ours. How many know what the Miqra of Firstfruits is, let alone know the significance of its prophetic fulfillment? That, BTW, is the day He was raised. Yahweh couldn't care less about our Pagan Gregorian calendaring system.

cygnusx1 · Mar 30, 2006

jochanaan said:
I would say rather that the Law came to show sin as sin, not to increase it. And of course we can and should serve God on a much more profound level than mere law-observance. Yet should we disregard the Law, which Yahweh Himself carved on a stone? I have never heard the arguments against the Fourth Commandment applied to any other of the Ten.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Romans 5:20 [/SIZE][/FONT]

http://bible.cc/romans/5-21.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly; (WEB)

And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly: (ASV)

And the law came in addition, to make wrongdoing worse; but where there was much sin, there was much more grace: (BBE)

But law came in, in order that the offence might abound; but where sin abounded grace has overabounded, (DBY)

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (KJV)

Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (WBS)

Now Law was brought in later on, so that transgression might increase. But where sin increased, grace has overflowed; (WEY)

And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound, (YLT)[/FONT]

cygnusx1 · Mar 30, 2006

BrightCandle said:
Paul stated in the NT that without Law, there could be no sin. God's law was broken when Adam and Eve sinned, that's why they were cast out of the garden of Eden. They broke the first commandment when they choose to follow the Devil's way instead of God's way. The Bible also states that when we continue in sin we become a servant to sin. The Sabbath was indeed in exsistence in the garden of Eden before sin entered the human race see Genesis 2.

We have the Law of Christ now ........... the Mosaic Law is a killer ......... if you wish to keep it you must be willing to take it's penalty also!

rstrats · Mar 30, 2006

YahwehisHisname

re: "How many know what the Miqra of Firstfruits is, let alone know the significance of its prophetic fulfillment? That, BTW, is the day He was raised."

Was the typology of Firstfruits realized at the moment of resurrection, or was it later at the Messiah’s presentation of himself to the Father?

Oblio · Mar 30, 2006

Yahweh couldn't care less about our Pagan Gregorian calendaring system.

Please explain why the Gregorian calendar is pagan, and why it has anything to do with the Paschalion.

Oblio · Mar 30, 2006

(But we are told what the consequence is for tinkering with His scriptures will be).

Outside of an obsession with Hebrew proper names and removing books from the OT, no one has tinkered with Holy Scripture.

YahwehisHisname · Mar 30, 2006

rstrats said:
YahwehisHisname

re: "How many know what the Miqra of Firstfruits is, let alone know the significance of its prophetic fulfillment? That, BTW, is the day He was raised."

Was the typology of Firstfruits realized at the moment of resurrection, or was it later at the Messiahs presentation of himself to the Father?

Although we arent told specifically, its obvious within the context of the whole of Scripture that Yahshuas Soul and His resurrection body had already ascended, having become the living embodiment and the prophetic fulfillment of the Miqra of FirstFruits just after meeting with the women. The Messiah presented His wave offering of redeemed souls before Yahweh. His Soul was the sacrifice and the first fruits were the risen Yahuwdymthose who belong to Yah. As confirmation we find this in Matthews testimony-27:52-53(and others)

YahwehisHisname · Mar 30, 2006

Oblio said:
Outside of an obsession with Hebrew proper names and removing books from the OT, no one has tinkered with Holy Scripture.

I can give examples until the cows come home, but lets just stick to the most glaring- Yahweh. He loves His name. Yahweh tells us to use His name. He tells us to proclaim His name. Exult, praise and pray in His name. He used His name 6868 times in His Scriptures. There is power and majesty in His name. His name answers the most important questions man can ask, and to speak on behalf of the unjust removal of His set apart name, an act which results in spiritual death, is considered by you an "obsession". You have somehow missed the entire message of the scriptures.

What about the word Easter being added in there?

What about "mai sabbaton" which means "one sabbath" all throughout the scriptures except in the place where we have tried to justify Sunday worship, rendering mia sabbaton "first day of the week"? Note Greek has words for "first" and "week" and are also used throughout scripture.

The church is not alone. Rabbinical Jews also kept people from knowing Yahshua, and from salvation, when they knowingly and purposely altered the passage They pierced (kuwr) my hands and my feet. (Psalm 22:16) to read Like a lion are my hands and feet.

Kuwr is a very specific term. It speaks of boring into the flesh with a dull piercing instrument of metal that has been forged in a smelting furnace. A Roman nail fits this description perfectly.
Lion is 'aryeh. Pierced is kuwr. The word for like does not appear in the text and lion and pierced arent even remotely similar. This was not a mistake. Here's is the proof: The 11th century CE Masoretic Text reads: Like a lion are my hands and feet. The 20th century CE Jewish Publication Society Tanach agrees, saying: Like lions [they maul] my hands and feet.
Yet the 3rd century BCE Septuagint has The have pierced my hands and feet. The oldest surviving Hebrew manuscript of the 22nd Psalm was recently discovered at Nahal Hever. It dates to the first century BCE. It reads: They have pierced my hand and my feet. The Dead Seas Bible concurs. Like I said, I could site concrete proof of us "tinkering" with His word all day long... and again, the consequence is severe.

Oblio · Mar 30, 2006

The Messiah presented His “wave offering” of redeemed souls before Yahweh. His Soul was the sacrifice and the first fruits were the risen Yahuwdym—those who belong to Yah.

Am I to understand that you believe that Jesus offered the souls of men to appease the Father ?? This is even more incredible (and heterodox) than the belief that Christ sacrificed Himself to appease an Angry God. Nor did Christ sacrifice His soul. Your doctrines are unorthodox in the extreme.

JimfromOhio · Mar 30, 2006

BrightCandle said:
So you do agree that the moral principles of the Ten Commandments still stand in our time? Will you then be keeping the 7th day Sabbath starting this coming Friday at sundown?

In ritual or in heart? In tradition or in Spirit? In Christ or in Law? Is Sabbath moral or ceremorial? Christ rose on the first day of the week, a celebration of grace or stick with law of traditions?

Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

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