• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Godistruth1, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    They are one in purpose, not one in being or deity. The oneness believers are to share is the same oneness the Father and Son share. Therefore, it cannot be any oneness of being or deity.
     
  2. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    I would rather use logic than illogic. The trinity uses illogic to understand Him.
     
  3. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    I prefer pre-KJV translations such as Tyndale's, Geneva Bible, Matthew's Bible, The Bishop's Bible, The Great Bible, etc., all which read somewhat similarly as follows.

    John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
    John 1:2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
    John 1:3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
    The logos in the beginning of John does not refer to a being, but to the spoken words, thoughts, plans, etc., of Father YHWH. The logos eventually became a being when YHWH spoke His Son into existence (John 1:14).
     
  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    You are reading the Son into the logos.
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    You are reading the Son into this verse and into the logos. I will not do that. The Son was not the logos until it was made flesh.
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    That holds true because you are both flesh. Father YHWH is Spirit and His Son is flesh. No equality. Flesh is subject to Spirit.
     
  7. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    I have no problem using sources outside of Scripture IF Scripture does not address an issue or if the outside source agrees with Scripture. The outside sources used to teach a trinity do NOT agree with Scripture unless the Scriptures are twisted to conform to the outside source.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    I would not accept doctrines from the Protestant churches either. I suspect neither would you. The teachings of Yeshua and his apostles are the teachings of non-pediphiles. They were not workers of iniquity. Such workers arose in the church AFTER Paul departed (Acts 20:29).

    The second century believers did not belong to the "Catholic Church", but to the "catholic church" or "universal church". The term was not used until after Paul departed and corruption set in. Eventually it came to refer to the particular sect known as the "Catholic Church" or "Roman Catholic Church". The Catholic Church did not give us the NT. YHWH may have used them to compile the canon, but He alo used a donkey to teach a man.

    As for what the CC changed; they abolished the feast days and instituted man-made feasts in their place; changed the Sabbath to Sunday; abolished the dietary laws, etc.
     
  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    The doctrine against Sola Scriptura comes from Catholics so they could continue in their man-made traditions and doctrines. I have plenty of arguments for my beliefs. My statements were not designed as insults, but to show what kind of men the CC receives their doctrines from. I prefer to receive them from Scripture, Yeshua, and his apostles.
     
  10. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,178
    Christian
    Married
    It's not necessarily the SAME oneness ... as in like manner it is neither the ONENESS shared by a husband and wife. All ONENESS is not the same.

    Jesus prayed to the Father to restore to Him the glory He shared with the Father in the beginning ...

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  11. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,178
    Christian
    Married
    LOGIC will not suffice to understand an unfathomable God ...
     
  12. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,178
    Christian
    Married
    John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
     
  13. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,178
    Christian
    Married
    Are you saying that Christ had no spirit ? That you have no spirit ?

    Does not the scripture speak of the Spirit of Christ ?

    Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

    Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  14. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

    +3,588
    Ecuador
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    Jesus said "he who does not listen to the Church is to be treated as a pagan and a tax collector" and he founded his Church on Peter and the Apostles.
    Also, you adhere to Protestant ideas by believing in the innovation of Sola Scriptura.
     
  15. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    John 17:22 says "even as" which makes it the same oneness. If not, then what kind of oneness is John 10:30 referring to?

    I already addressed this. It refers to the glory he had in the Father's plan of salvation.
     
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    Neither will illogic which is why I base my beliefs on Scripture as I'm guided by the Spirit, not the traditions and illogic of men.
     
  17. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    "God" refers to the Father and "worde" refers to His spoken words, thoughts, plans, etc. Just as my words and thoughts are me, so are the Father's. Why do you insist on reading the Son into the text? We are not told the Son was the logos. We are told the logos was made into the Son.
     
  18. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    I never said the Son had no spirit. The subject was equality. The greatest Spirit in existence has NO equality with a flesh and blood man even if that man was GIVEN a spirit by the greatest Spirit. That man has now been glorified and become a spirit being that can put his spirit in another being. Yet, we see that even in his glorified state, he will be subject to the Father throughout all eternity (1 Corinthians 15:28).
     
  19. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

    +1,023
    United States
    Unitarian
    Single
    US-Others
    I adhere to 2 Timothy 3:16 unless those Scriptures do not address an issue. Just because Protestants believe the same way does not mean they invented the doctrine. Where are we told to build doctrines on tradition? The verse does NOT say, "All tradition is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: "
     
  20. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,178
    Christian
    Married
    My view of the Godhead has less to do with equality ... and more to do with relationship. The members of the Godhead operate together, in unity, with the same purposes and plan.

    They were together in the beginning, executed Creation together, have redeemed mankind together, and will continue to operate and govern the Universe together.

    The scriptures state that Christ was, originally, in the very form of God, ... that He took on the form of a man, ... and that He is now glorified (as He was originally) ... and has inherited all authority from His Father.

    Philippians 2

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
Loading...