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Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Godistruth1, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    I should maybe accept Joseph Smith since God personally talked to him.
     
  2. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    If that's the case then you wouldn't keep saying that we worship 3 Gods. You contradict yourself.
     
  3. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    How is it that one supposed deity (the Son) worships the other deity (the Father)? Yeshua's God/Deity is YHWH. YHWH's does not have a God He worships. There is none greater than He. BTW, if the Son is God and men saw him, how can John 1:18 say "no man has seen God at any time ..."?

    I agree

    Surely you are not trying to teach me that Yeshua is the Father. Are you?

    I totally agree.

    You quoted the Catholic Encyclopedia which is why I mentioned them. The Catholic Church today is nothing like the early church either in doctrine or practice.

    Psalm 82:6 refers to the mighty men of Israel who receive the Scriptures and who were not God (John 10:34-35). Verse 6 is fact, not mockery.

    Philosophy. Yeshua was not born God, but man. That is why it can be said that no man has seen God even though many men saw Yeshua. He was a man, not God.

    The glory Yeshua had was in YHWH's plan of salvation. He was the Lamb slain ...not literally, but in YHWH's plan.

    Oh. How convenient to define it that way.

    Co-equal in power?

    John 5:19 Then answered Yeshua and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.
    Co-equal in nature? Scripture reference?
     
  4. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No one has seen God the Father, God the Son is the image of God the Father. I’m teaching that Jesus Christ is the image of the Father not the Father himself. The Catholic Church was the only church around for the first few hundred years besides the Gnostic sects if you can even call them Christian. Either way that’s not our discussion and you don’t have much ground to stand on for just rejecting the Catholic encyclopedia regardless of what it says because of its affiliation with the Catholic Church.

    And how convenient that verses 7 and 8 say this:

    But like mortals you will die, and like rulers you will fall.” Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are Your inheritance.

    There’s no mention of receiving scripture in the entire chapter.

    The meaning of the verse that no one has seen God is that no one may see God in his fullness of deity, as many people throughout the Old and New Testament have seen God.

    Jesus said I had glory with you before the world, it means they shared the same glory side by side before the world began. He didn’t say my glory was with you before the world began he said I had glory with you before the world began.

    I didn’t define it that way, the Church that Christ founded specifically defined it that way in the Athanasian creed. Everything you quoted is like attacking a straw man because co-equal in power references the divine nature of Christ not the human nature of Christ. Christ on earth could do nothing of his own due to being human. Either way everything God the Son has is from the one who begot him. If Jesus is the uncreated begotten Word of God the he must obviously have the same nature as God the Father has.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  5. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    John was a disciple of Christ and a prophet who received revelations from God and was guided by the Holy Spirit. And it sure beats believing in a book that was complied and authored anonymously and a book that had pieces of it lost and parts burned by the state and ruler.
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    "God the Son" is a man-made term not found in Scripture. Yes, the Son is the image of God, but not God himself. I'm glad to hear you are not teaching Yeshua is the Father.

    Even though they were "elohim" or mighty men among the nation, they will die just like any other man because of their sins. Even "elohim" can be mortals which proves the word "elohim" does not require one to be deity.

    I was referring to John 10:34-35 in which Yeshua quotes Psalm 82:6 and references them as those who received the Word of God (Scripture).

    John 10:34 Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are [elohim]?
    John 10:35 If He called them [elohim], unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; ​

    No one has ever seen God in any way. They saw an angel in every supposed OT Theophany. And there certainly were no "Christophanies" either. They are just the wishful thinking and imaginations of trinitarians as they desperately try to find him living during OT times.

    Yeshua was in YHWH's plan before the foundation of the world. In that plan he had glory. The verse says nothing about sharing glory.

    Isaiah 42:8 "I am YHWH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."​

    More philosophy. None of that is in Scripture except the sentence I put in bold. BTW, I don't base my faith on or build doctrines with the creeds of men.
     
  7. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God the Son means what is then Son begotten of God making the Son also God which is a title attached to Jesus Christ. The only thing that can be the image of God is God himself, when you look in a mirror you don't see a dog or cat looking back you see yourself a human, thus the image of God is God himself. In the beginning of Psalm 82 we read this:

    God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods: “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?

    This makes it clear that the word Elohim is figurative and used in mockery of the rulers of this world. The Word of God they received is the Logos and the reference to scripture means everything it has spoken will come to pass and not be broken.


    Jacob said I saw God face to face, meaning this was no Angel he wrestled with, not to mention The mysterious Angel of The Lord which is distinct to the other Angels, judging by the use of the definite article “the”, makes it clear it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. Mention of the Angel of The Lord also mysteriously stops after the incarnation.

    The verse says I had glory with you before the world, wheres the mention of being in Yahweh's plan of salvation? Isaiah 42:8 proves the deity of Christ since Christ asks the Father to glorify him as the Father glorifies himself. Scripture itself uses philosophy to prove concepts or convey its message, also the early Church never taught Sola Scriptura. Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to the Son:

    All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you."

    John 16:15

    Everything I said can be proven from scripture throw in John 16:15 with Isaiah 42:8, so if what Jesus was saying is true that everything that belongs to the Father is his then his glory does aswell, and Yahweh doesn't give glory unto to another except himself which means Christ is also Yahweh and God.
     
  8. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can say 1 but you actually contradict yourself by saying you worship one God but you believe father as God son as God and holy spirit as God. So there's three gods not one God. Just an honest question so I'm sure I'm not wasting my time talking to you. What's 1+1+1?
     
  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    When I look in a mirror I see an image of myself, not my real self. If I paint an image of an apple on a canvas, I am not seeing an apple, but an image/copy of it.

    The Psalm is written about the mighty men of Israel to whom the Scriptures were given as Yeshua pointed out in John 10:35 and who were appointed the office of "elohim" (judges - Exodus 21:6, 22; 22:8-9, 28). There is no mockery involved. Even if you interpret "word of God" in John 10 as referring to Yeshua, it doesn't change the fact that those mighty men (elohim) of Israel should have been walking in righteousness and judging justly, but they were not. The Psalm has nothing to do with the world. Those in the world are not "children of the Most High" (Psalm 82:6).

    Hosea 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
    Hosea 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
    As for the angel of YHWH, how do you explain the fact that "the" angel of YHWH appeared to Joseph in a dream while Yeshua was in Miriam's womb (Matthew 1:24)? You assume all the OT references to the angel of YHWH refer to the Son and therefore read him into the text. I try not to build doctrines by reading things into the text.

    Where does it say that? Certainly not in John 17:5.

    All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you."

    John 16:15

    Everything I said can be proven from scripture throw in John 16:15 with Isaiah 42:8, so if what Jesus was saying is true that everything that belongs to the Father is his then his glory does aswell, and Yahweh doesn't give glory unto to another except himself which means Christ is also Yahweh and God.[/QUOTE]
    John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    John 16:15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    Verse 15 is referring to the things the Father has that He took from the Son to show unto us. It does not refer to the things that "belong to" the Father. The Father's glory, Eternal life, omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence belonged to the Father and not the Son at the time the Son spoke those words.
     
  10. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I forgot to reply to the end of this statement. So it is true that you believe the Father is the Son and vice versa. By calling Christ "Yahweh", you are teaching me that he is his own Father.

    Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: YHWH has said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    The Psalmist is writing Yeshua's words in which Yesha himself declares YHWH (Yahweh) is his Father.

    Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Yeshua again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
    "God", here, refers to YHWH who declares Yeshua is His Son. So, by you saying Christ is Yahweh, you are teaching Christ is the Father. Oy vey!

     
  11. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All persons of the trinity are Yahweh, but are not each other in individuality. Once more attacking a straw man. All persons of the trinity are God without being each other..
     
  12. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually you said it yourself that I worship one God, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Each is not a god, they are all God as you yourself said. And what do you get when you add infinity + infinity + infinity, if you want to play the mathematical argument?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
  13. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I can understand you saying all three are God since God is a title, but to say all three are Yahweh which is the name of the Heavenly Father and no one else in the OT, makes you dead wrong. There is only one YHWH.
     
  14. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    John 16:15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    Verse 15 is referring to the things the Father has that He took from the Son to show unto us. It does not refer to the things that "belong to" the Father. The Father's glory, Eternal life, omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence belonged to the Father and not the Son at the time the Son spoke those words.[/QUOTE]
    And the Son is a copy of the Father’s image making him also God.

    The Psalm calls these men wicked and unjust so there’s definitely mockery invoked in calling them gods. The context of Psalm 82 is the people asking God to judge the unjust rulers of the world this can clearly be seen in the text.

    Jacob himself identified the Angel as God. The Angel of the Lord in that visited Joseph in Matthew is identified as Gabriel by Luke. It’s definitely distinct from the unnamed Angel of The Lord of the Old Testament.

    This is the passage in context:

    I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you. In a little while you will see Me no more, and then after a little while you will see Me.”

    Jesus did possess omnipresence and omnipotence throughout the New Testament, but chose to not express it regularly in everyday life. Jesus is still laying claim to everything the Father has which is also repeated when he says all authority on heaven and earth has been given to him. Jesus literally said everything the Father has is mine how can that not include everything that belongs to the Father? What Jesus promised his disciples is eternal life he shall take my eternal life and authority and give it to you.
     
  15. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There’s only one God whose name is Yahweh in the Old Testament and there is only One God as revealed in the New Testament, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If only one of them is Yahweh and the others aren’t then you have more then One God.
     
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    No. YOU have more than one God since Yeshua is not Yahweh. Your God is the Son. My God is the Son's God. If the Son is God and the Son has a God, then you have two Gods. No thanks, but I will stick to one God, the Father.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
  17. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son is submissive to the will and authority of the Father as is the Holy Spirit. So God has no God but God. There’s no two gods here.
     
  18. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Why are they submissive if they are co-equal?
     
  19. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    What's 1x1x1?
     
  20. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I already explained this earlier, they are co-equal in divinity and nature not in authority.
     
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