Why There Cannot Be Predestination

[Matthan]

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan

 

[oberland]

Hi Matthen,

One view that you might want to think about is, when man fell from grace in the garden, he fell completely, and is unable to have a saving relationship with God, therefore being cut off from the presence of God, all of mankind is deserving of Gods anger, however God in his mercy has sent his only begotten Son to restore that relationship,so God is not predestining anyone to hell but rather he has devised a plan to save “as many who call on the name of the Lord” from hell.

[FONT=&quot]The above is not the complete answer to predestination of course, but I hope that line of thought will stir the grey matter!
[/FONT]

 

[Matthan]

You are right, oberland. Jesus was the perfect propituation that now and for all times permits God to dispense His grace on those who love Him. all they have to do is exercise their own free will and believe in the Son, and they will also get the Father.

Matthan

 

[spiritwarrior37]

Predestination and foreordination are biblical. The greek word "Proginosko" is translated in the following ways. 1. to have knowledge before hand; 2. to foreknow; 3. of those whom God elected to salvation; 4.to predestinate

It is used in the following ways in the KJV.foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1. Predestination is in the scriptures so one must believe in it.

 

[PETE_]

One could exercise their free will and follow the law perfectly, thus voiding the need to be among those God elects give grace.

 

[Matthan]

Predestination and foreordination are biblical. The greek word "Proginosko" is translated in the following ways. 1. to have knowledge before hand; 2. to foreknow; 3. of those whom God elected to salvation; 4.to predestinate

It is used in the following ways in the KJV.foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1. Predestination is in the scriptures so one must believe in it.

I requested that folks read my OP carefully. You mentioned "to have knowledge before hand;" and "to foreknow". Isn't tht exactly what I said? God is omniscient. He surely foreknows everything, including who will eventually wind up in eternal Heaven. But foreknowing does not in any way equate to foreordination, or causing it to happen (which is what I stated in my last sentense. God knew that Adam and Eve would fall, but He did not cause them to fall. They used their own free will for that. And God does not foreordain either salvation or perdition to any person. Why is that? For the reasons I stated in my OP. If He predestined any person to hell, then that person would be in hell for what God required of him. And that means God would have to judge Himself, an impossible situation.

Please go back and carefully reread my OP. You may better understand what I stated.

Matthan

 

[mlqurgw]

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:



So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan

This is nothing less than circular reasoning proven by false dilemmas. It is also, and more importantly, a denial of the plain statements of Scripture. Neither your appeal to logic or your appeal to Scripture will hold water. It is based on a false premise that man has a free will and assumes the conclusion. While it may sound good it proves nothing either by Scripture or logic.

 

[mlqurgw]

I made a very brief post because I do not feel the need to write a long, detailed one refuting the argument in the OP. Any student of the Scriptures knows that it denies the very plain statements concerning predestination in them. Any student of logic can spot the fallacies in the OP and I need not point them out.
I have no time to waste on such unscriptural and illogical tripe. He will not convince any who know truth nor will I convince any who would exalt man. It is a pointless argument.

Rather than debating predestination why don't we get into more urgent and profitable subjects? How is a man justified before God? Who is Christ and what did He do? Where is He now and what is He doing? What is sanctification? How does the Law fit into our lives today?
All of these subjects involve the person and work of Christ. There is no doubt that discussion of any of them will be both controversial and profitable to any who are seeking to learn.

 

[Iosias]

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

To which I reply; the old age trick of the anti-predestinarian is to run to the Scriptural truth of reprobation and attack it there. Unfortunately you misconstrue what Scripture teaches and I offer what follows for your consideration and the consideration of those who read this thread.

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
1 Peter 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
Romans 9:17-23 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

John Gill has well explained reprobation here:
Introduction
SECTION 1. - Proverbs 16:4
SECTION 2. - John 12:39, 40
SECTION 3. - 1 Peter 2:8
SECTION 4. - Jude 1:4
SECTION 5. - Revelation 13:8

He deals in depth with all the verses that anti-predestinationarians use in his The Cause of God and Truth. I suggest that you read it carefully.

 

[Iosias]

all they have to do is exercise their own free will and believe in the Son, and they will also get the Father.

Matthan

One wonders how a corpse can make himself live and how a spiritually dead man could make himself spiritually alive. But then the answer is to down play the effect of the fall and that when Scripture declares that "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor 2:14) because we are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins...and were by nature the children of wrath" (Eph 2:1, 3) you say that actually the corspe still has life within him to which I reply; if he still has life within him then he is not a corpse and is not dead but if however he is a corpse then he is dead and so has no life within him.

I agree with Augustus Toplady in his sermon which has been entitled Arminianism: The Golden Idol of Free Will.

 

[Hagios17]

Not gonna waste my breath here. Amen.

 

[Hagios17]

Sorry, wait that was disrespectful.

Let me rather say, that if you were to study the entire book of Ephessians, then deliver your belief from that book, I might consider considering what you say.

 

[Hagios17]

But then again, I have no idea whether you beleive the book of Ephessians is part of the Authoritative word of God.

 

[Matthan]

This is nothing less than circular reasoning proven by false dilemmas. It is also, and more importantly, a denial of the plain statements of Scripture. Neither your appeal to logic or your appeal to Scripture will hold water. It is based on a false premise that man has a free will and assumes the conclusion. While it may sound good it proves nothing either by Scripture or logic.

Sorry, but I totally disagree. It is not in any way circular reasoning, and there are no false delemmas involved anywhere. If you take the time to think about my reasoning, you will find that both my scriptural and logical reasoning cannot be denied. And, it is not BASED on a false premise of man's free will, it arrives at that conclusion. It assumes NOTHING, but only uses facts to arrive at more facts.

So miqurgw, you can deny the truth, but you cannot change it. Show me and the rest of the readers where God would not have to judge Himself if predestination is a reality. Or, are you saying that the final judgement is just a sham? The truth is that either we sin and die in our sins, or we sin and are justified by imputed righteousness. God will judge that ending for every person. If He caused either ending in any way, then He must judge Himself.

Sorry, but your generalized rebuttal falls flat on its empty face.

Matthan

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

Denomination debates...

You have my support Matthan

 

[maniac]

I think I'm going wade into this debate as I can hear both sides, or at least think I'm hearing both sides. I must say that I have yet to find that in scripture we have no mention of free will but we do find that man will be judged for his actions. So we infer that free will must exist. Whereas what Spiritwarrior is saying is correct, predestination and forordination are found throughout scripture both Old and New Testament. I do believe in free will and predestination, as I think predestination is the term used for God foreknowing our choices while knowing His plan simultaneously.

I agree with Matthan that if there were not choices then God would have to condemn his own action but since God has his plan and His plan must happen in order for prophecy to be true then He needs to have a control over things we cannot understand.

Hagios17 brings in a good point and in order to understand this efffectively we must look at all of scripture and be willing to abandon our positions of what we were taught if the Bible says differently.

 

[Iosias]

So we infer that free will must exist.

No one denies free will as such but the point is what is our will actually free to do. Our will is in bondage to sin and so whilst free it is a slave and is unable to will anything good.

See:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm
http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Cause_of_God_and_Truth/Part 3/section_05.htm

CHAPTER 5. OF THE CORRUPTION OF HUMAN NATURE, AND THE IMPOTENCE OF THE WILL TO MAN TO THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUALLY GOOD.
Introduction
SECTION 1. - Job 14:4
SECTION 2. - Psalm 51:5
SECTION 3. - Genesis 6:5
SECTION 4. - John 3:6
SECTION 5. - Romans 7:18, 19
SECTION 6. - Romans 8:7, 8

 

[warriorforJesus]

I haven't been on CF for very long, but the one thing I have come to realize is that there are a bunch of well educated idiots on here. If you don't believe as they do you are wrong, everything you post, even when you give scripture references, is wrong. There are way to many holier than thou people. There are a few exceptions such as DeaconDean, mlqurgw, and a few others that are sincere and knowledgeable of the scriptures. But there is way to much bickering and putting down of other people.I have found most threads such as this one are started just for the sake of seeing how big of an argument they can get started. I came here to discuss topics and fellowship with other believers, but I can clearly see this cannot happen. So I say goodbye, for I will not be returning to CF. God bless.

 

[DeaconDean]

I haven't been on CF for very long, but the one thing I have come to realize is that there are a bunch of well educated idiots on here. If you don't believe as they do you are wrong, everything you post, even when you give scripture references, is wrong. There are way to many holier than thou people. There are a few exceptions such as DeaconDean, mlqurgw, and a few others that are sincere and knowledgeable of the scriptures. But there is way to much bickering and putting down of other people.I have found most threads such as this one are started just for the sake of seeing how big of an argument they can get started. I came here to discuss topics and fellowship with other believers, but I can clearly see this cannot happen. So I say goodbye, for I will not be returning to CF. God bless.

I agree, if the Bible didn't actually use the word "predestinate" that would be another story. But it does, and to dispute God's word.

Matthan, have you ever heard of a "causative verb?" It sings of "fore-ordaination."

The Psalmist said:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou chooseth, -this is election, chosen in him before the foundation of the world.

And causeth to approach thee, -this is fore-ordaination. God caused those whom He choose, to approach Him, not man in his so called "free will."

Concerning "foreordaination," from Kittel's "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament," we learn this:

"proginwskein" usually means "to know beforehand" as human foresight or cleverness makes this possible. In the New Testament, "proginwskein" is refered to God. His foreknowledge, however, is an election or foreordaination of His people, (Rom. 8:29; 11:2) or Christ (1 Pet. 1:20)."(1) (2)

(1) On the underlying apocalyptic world view in 1 Pet. 1:20. (proegnwsmenou men pro katabolhV kosmou, fanerwqentoV de ep escatou twn cronwn) cf. esp. 4 Esr. 6:1 ff., and the comm. of R. Knopf and H. Windisch, ad. loc.

(2) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, editor, Translated by: Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Eerdmans Publishing, (1964), Reprinted 2006, Vol. I, p. 715-716

And just as a purely historical note, predestination and foreordaination have been believed in Baptist churches in America since at least 1775. As noted here:

"Beloved Brethren, -- In the primitive times, when people were converted by the ministry of the gospel, and united together in church relation and fellowship, it was the practice of the Apostles to establish them in the truths which they had believed and professed, Acts xv. 41, for their edification and comfort, Acts ix. 31. We now, according to our measure, would endeavor to follow this worthy pattern, for the like excellent design. The subject, which next in order comes to be considered, is the doctrine of God's decree. Confession of faith, chap. III. Whereon we observe,

1. That God, the supreme, who is self-existent, and every way an independent sovereign, the creator of all things, hath an absolute right to dispose of all his creatures; and before his works of old, to appoint and determine all things to a certain end. This article of our belief, both scripture and reason do jointly and sufficiently confirm, Isa. xlvi. 10; Psalm xxxiii. 11; Provo xix. 21.

2. The rule of his fore-appointment, of what shall come to pass in time, is the wise counsel of his most holy will and pleasure. Eph. i. 11.

3. In accomplishing his purpose, no violence is offered to the will of the creature, good, Psalm cx. 3; or bad, James i. 13, 14; nor the use of means taken away, Ezek. xxxvi. 37; neither is God, in anywise, the author of sin, though he decreed to permit it to be, Acts xiv. 16; Gen. xlv. 5; Acts ii. 23.

4. The special objects of God's decree are angels and men.

5. When all the human race, by the sin of the first man, were involved in guilt, Rom. v. 12, and fallen under condemnation, and all become the children of wrath; it would manifestly be doing them no injustice, if they were, to every individual, left in that state, and eternally punished for their sins: this would have been their proper desert, their just reward. But God, out of his mere free grace and love, without any moving cause in the parties chosen, hath predestinated some unto life, through a Mediator, Eph. i. 4; Rom. xi. 5, 6, (without any wrong done to others) together with all the means subservient to this end, viz., their redemption by the blood of Christ, and renovation by the Spirit of holiness, to the praise of his glorious grace; the other left to act in sin, to their final destruction, to the glory of divine justice, Rom. ix. 22, 23."

Let such know and learn, that the way for their relief is not by laboring to pry into the secret purpose of God, or in their thoughts to dwell upon it, to their own discouragement, but abide by, and cleave to, his revealed will, which directs all indigent ones to Christ the Mediator for supply, and to the use of those means prescribed for the satisfaction and peace of laboring souls: "Make your calling sure." 2 Pet. i.10. In so doing shall the fearful be able to look back, and know their election before time, and forward, and view their salvation to come, when time shall be no more. This glorious truth is not designed to deter troubled souls from coming to Jesus Christ.

CIRCULAR LETTER
Philadelphia Baptist Association
"The Decrees of God"
By Rev. Abel Morgan, Pastor
Middletown Baptist Church
1775

JOHN GANO, Moderator.
WIILLAM ROGERS, Clerk.

http://www.geocities.com/baptist_documents/1775.cl.phila.html


God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

I do not deny the fact that Bible uses the word 'predestine,' that's obvious enough.

I disagree with your interpretation of it, and Calvinists interpretation.