Why There Cannot Be Predestination

[mlqurgw]

So it would have been better to have my boys die in their infancy than run the risk of not being elect...as far as eternity goes I would rather that happen and "guarantee" than the dice roll per calvinism.

I agree with you on the mentally disabled-was your daughter born this way or was it an accident?

That would be true in either system. Though you call Calvinism a dice roll free wiil fits the discription better.

 

[PETE_]

Clarifying question:

Are you saying that if you are one of the elect, then your children are automatically one of the elect as well?

No, but as with all else we trust Him to do what is best for His children.

 

[TwinCrier]

The question is not whether you are sure that you are one of the elected. The question is this: Are you sure you KNOW for sure you are saved? The bottom line is that Christians follow doctrines according to the Holy Spirit's conviction. The Holy Spirit gave me assurance of my faith and doctrines I follow. No Church, No Denomination, No pastors or anyone can do this for me. Holy Spirit is the ONLY person who can do this. In 2 Timothy 2:19 reminded us that God sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his"

If I am not a KJVOnly Believer does not mean I am not a Christian is no different that I follow Calvinism doctrines mean I am a Christian. You are a Christian when the Holy Spirit seals your heart for eternal life.

I KNOW that I am saved, but I don't believe I am elect. If I was elect (presuming there is such a thing) then I should know it if I were, so I must be lost. Lots of people who are sure will hear, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Not sure what KJVOnly has to do with the topic, I thought this was the John Calvinism thread. I guess God didn't predestine me since I don't believe in predestination.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I KNOW that I am saved, but I don't believe I am elect. If I was elect (presuming there is such a thing) then I should know it if I were, so I must be lost. Lots of people who are sure will hear, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Not sure what KJVOnly has to do with the topic, I thought this was the John Calvinism thread. I guess God didn't predestine me since I don't believe in predestination.

I guess God didn't predestine me since I don't believe in predestination.

We calvinists do not even know that but somehow you keep bringing that up. We just accept John Calvin's view of Doctrine of Salvation. Its a doctrine, not a way of salvation.

The real problem is understanding God's Divine sovereignty has to do with the will of man.

If God rules His universe by His sovereign decrees, how is it possible for man to exercise free choice?

If a sinner cannot exercise freedom of choice, how can a sinner be held responsible for his/her conduct?

Is man not a puppet whose actions are determined by a behind-the-scenes God who pulls the strings as it pleases Him?

In the beginning, man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. Since then, every person (other than Jesus) were born into that man's choice. Man's choice brought us a disease called sin. Sin that separates God and man. Sin that caused a sinner to be spiritually dead. We are to look back to the Garden of Eden and the warning of God to Adam and Eve: "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:16–17). Adam and Eve did not heed the warning; they ate of the forbidden fruit. And on the day that they transgressed the law of God in disobedience and self-will, they died spiritually. Spiritually dead means a sinner is not dead physically, but spiritually, a sinner is cut off from God. A sinner's form of existence was such that a sinner is separated from God. Sin came into the world and brought death with it.

A sinner's spirit is dead, not in a coma. What cause a spiritually dead sinner to turn to God?

How does a spiritually dead sinner become alive?

AT own's effort to get saved?

or

At the Holy Spirit's pricking, convicting and causing a sinner to repent?

 

[JimfromOhio]

So it would have been better to have my boys die in their infancy than run the risk of not being elect...as far as eternity goes I would rather that happen and "guarantee" than the dice roll per calvinism.

I agree with you on the mentally disabled-was your daughter born this way or was it an accident?

By birth and accident.

 

[BereanTodd]

I KNOW that I am saved, but I don't believe I am elect. If I was elect (presuming there is such a thing)

TwinCrier, and here I thought you were such a staunch defender of the Bible. You say you do not even know if there is such a thing as the elect? Have you not read the following??

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Matthew 24:22
22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:30-31
30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Luke 18:6-7

6And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said; 7now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Romans 8:33-34
33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

 

[DMagoh]

Since I dealt with disabilities as one of my daughters is mentally disabled. I always believed that Infants, dying in infancy, including those who are mentally disabled are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all others who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word....

I dont know if I understand the rationale behind this belief. I am trying to understand Calvinism, and am not looking to argue, fight, flame, or criticize. Just looking for information. If an infant dies, or someone mentally disabled dies, why would they automatically be regenerated and saved?


I understand the concept of them not being capable of being outwardly called, but why would that make them ALL elect. If God chooses some persons and not others, what difference would it make whether that person dies as a 3 year old? If God wasnt going to choose that individual to draw to Him anyway, what difference would it make whether they could respond or not? A 25 year-old is not capable of responding either if God doesnt draw him to Him.


So what would be the difference between a 25 year-old that is incapable of responding and a 3 year-old that is incapable of responding? It looks to me that if someone was of the elect AND and infant, or if someone was of the elect AND mentally challenged, then they would be regenerated. But if they weren't elect and died as an infant, or not of the elect and mentally challenged, then they would have the same fate as the 25 year-old non-elect person.


If you can explain the rationale for the belief you stated, I would be interested in learning, because some of this is genuinely confusing to me. Thanks in advance Jim for your response.

 

[mlqurgw]

Election is not salvation it is unto salvation. Christ is salvation. The elect are predestined to believe in and trust Christ alone for salvation. God is a God of purpose. He purposed to save a people from their sin and He did in Christ. The elect aren't saved because they are elect the are saved because Christ is their Savior.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I dont know if I understand the rationale behind this belief. I am trying to understand Calvinism, and am not looking to argue, fight, flame, or criticize. Just looking for information. If an infant dies, or someone mentally disabled dies, why would they automatically be regenerated and saved?


I understand the concept of them not being capable of being outwardly called, but why would that make them ALL elect. If God chooses some persons and not others, what difference would it make whether that person dies as a 3 year old? If God wasnt going to choose that individual to draw to Him anyway, what difference would it make whether they could respond or not? A 25 year-old is not capable of responding either if God doesnt draw him to Him.


So what would be the difference between a 25 year-old that is incapable of responding and a 3 year-old that is incapable of responding? It looks to me that if someone was of the elect AND and infant, or if someone was of the elect AND mentally challenged, then they would be regenerated. But if they weren't elect and died as an infant, or not of the elect and mentally challenged, then they would have the same fate as the 25 year-old non-elect person.


If you can explain the rationale for the belief you stated, I would be interested in learning, because some of this is genuinely confusing to me. Thanks in advance Jim for your response.

I have been a Christian for about 40 some years and only in the last 10 years or so, I have been learning more about Calvinism after struggling with various issues that I could not understand. I used to be an Arminian but over the years, the more I studied, the more I understand God's plan of Salvation and the works of the Holy Spirit, I tend to agree with Calvinism.

One thing I have learned is that Calvinism is a doctrine. Its a teaching and nothing more than that. Only God through the Holy Spirit that saves the elect.

I had issues regarding Arminianism doctrines is that they focus on human mind more than the Holy Spirit. Remember a story about David and his son in 2 Samuel 12:14? "the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill." and died. What did David do in faith? Caused me to think about David's faith in God's Sovereign.

I remember reading John MacArthur's books regarding salvation and he said "reformed soteriology can account for the fact that fallen, sinful, guilty, depraved children who die with no spiritual merit, die with no religious merit, die with no moral merit of their own, can be welcomed by a holy God into eternal glory! Only pure, reformed theology can allow for that because only the purist theology believes that salvation is all by grace!
"

Holy Spirit and GRACE. Not their own merit. If infants are saved when they die, by what means are they saved? How did they get saved?

Also the same of those who are retarded--mentally disabled in the same category as an infant would be, in the condition of not having a capability to understand matters of salvation--if they are saved when they die, by what means are they saved?

If we TRULY understand the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, because that is the only means that anybody can be saved according to God's will. Christ through His death and resurrection, every legal hindrance has been met and satisfied. There is nothing that can keep me from the promise. Its not about thinking our way into salvation or to reason our way into salvation. The only way to get in is to believe Him with my heart which is sealed by the Holy Spirit through the gift of Faith, through Jesus Christ, His grace and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

It took me YEARS to understand this. I hope this post will help but if not, I will do my best to keep posting and clarifying as I can. I would ask the Holy Spirit to help because it was the Holy Spirit that made me understand fully.

 

[edie19]

I have been a Christian for about 40 some years and only in the last 10 years or so, I have been learning more about Calvinism after struggling with various issues that I could not understand. I used to be an Arminian but over the years, the more I studied, the more I understand God's plan of Salvation and the works of the Holy Spirit, I tend to agree with Calvinism.

One thing I have learned is that Calvinism is a doctrine. Its a teaching and nothing more than that. Only God through the Holy Spirit that saves the elect.

I had issues regarding Arminianism doctrines is that they focus on human mind more than the Holy Spirit. Remember a story about David and his son in 2 Samuel 12:14? "the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill." and died. What did David do in faith? Caused me to think about David's faith in God's Sovereign.

I remember reading John MacArthur's books regarding salvation and he said "reformed soteriology can account for the fact that fallen, sinful, guilty, depraved children who die with no spiritual merit, die with no religious merit, die with no moral merit of their own, can be welcomed by a holy God into eternal glory! Only pure, reformed theology can allow for that because only the purist theology believes that salvation is all by grace!
"

Holy Spirit and GRACE. Not their own merit. If infants are saved when they die, by what means are they saved? How did they get saved?

Also the same of those who are retarded--mentally disabled in the same category as an infant would be, in the condition of not having a capability to understand matters of salvation--if they are saved when they die, by what means are they saved?

If we TRULY understand the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, because that is the only means that anybody can be saved according to God's will. Christ through His death and resurrection, every legal hindrance has been met and satisfied. There is nothing that can keep me from the promise. Its not about thinking our way into salvation or to reason our way into salvation. The only way to get in is to believe Him with my heart which is sealed by the Holy Spirit through the gift of Faith, through Jesus Christ, His grace and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

It took me YEARS to understand this. I hope this post will help but if not, I will do my best to keep posting and clarifying as I can. I would ask the Holy Spirit to help because it was the Holy Spirit that made me understand fully.

 

[heymikey80]

I dont know if I understand the rationale behind this belief. I am trying to understand Calvinism, and am not looking to argue, fight, flame, or criticize. Just looking for information. If an infant dies, or someone mentally disabled dies, why would they automatically be regenerated and saved?

The question relies on what we know about God, not what we know about the person. Translated into Calvinist terms you're asking, "Someone about whom we know little, but that the person really doesn't know good and evil, but only that the person is reliant on others for their very survival ... what can we say about that person's salvation?" Looking to that person, we can say nothing.

But then, looking to any person, we can say nothing.

What we always need to look to is to God as to the salvation of any person. There we only know the mercy and vast favor of God. He's not stingy with His favor.

So what should we conclude about God? Is God a miser when it comes to those who through creational corruption have no comprehension of Him?

Ultimately there's no information specifically about children and the mentally disabled as a group. There's simply no information. So we're left to answer this question with an absence of information.

As for the children of Christians, there's a paucity of information, but there's just the barest of more information -- that God has a special interest in the children of believers. God's promise is intergenerational when it comes to those who trust Him. And in the absence of evidence to the contrary we really have God's promise to go on, specifically.

 

[eldermike]

Clarifying question:

Are you saying that if you are one of the elect, then your children are automatically one of the elect as well?

No. What I went on to say was the process of raising them in a godly home, no matter the outcome, will bring God glory.

God said His people will live by faith, not by sight. I have a lost grown son. I have faith that he will come home. God will be God either way.

I will continue to talk to him, my beliefs do not compel me to sit and wait.

 

[DMagoh]

I have a lost grown son. I have faith that he will come home. God will be God either way.

I will continue to talk to him, my beliefs do not compel me to sit and wait.

That must be difficult. However, we can take assurance in the verse:

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6

Pray without ceasing, brother.

 

[TwinCrier]

TwinCrier, and here I thought you were such a staunch defender of the Bible. You say you do not even know if there is such a thing as the elect? Have you not read the following??

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Matthew 24:22
22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:30-31
30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Luke 18:6-7

6And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said; 7now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Romans 8:33-34
33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

BereanTodd, I have indeed read those verses, what I don't read is John Calvin's doctrine into it. It's like when I talk with a person who believe being filled with the Holy Spirit means speaking in tongues or a Catholic who thinks being born again means taking mass. They, like you, have defined these words to fit your beliefs. Predestined doesn't mean chosen for salvation, it could mean chosen for a work, and actually does in the context given. Elect just means a believer, not someone God picked at random before time began. If you do a little research on John Calvin you may want to forsake believing his doctrine.

 

[JimfromOhio]

BereanTodd, I have indeed read those verses, what I don't read is John Calvin's doctrine into it. It's like when I talk with a person who believe being filled with the Holy Spirit means speaking in tongues or a Catholic who thinks being born again means taking mass. They, like you, have defined these words to fit your beliefs. Predestined doesn't mean chosen for salvation, it could mean chosen for a work, and actually does in the context given. Elect just means a believer, not someone God picked at random before time began. If you do a little research on John Calvin you may want to forsake believing his doctrine.

I did not agree with Calvin's doctrines for some 30 years of my Christian life. In fact, I ignored his doctrines when I saw the word "Predestination" like most "fundamentalists". In fact, I didn't bother to study Reformed history and Church history until I was studying to become an elder/pastor. God through the Holy Spirit convicted me to understand. Through God's sanctification in my life, he convicted me of my own spiritual ignorance because "I chose to believe rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to convict me to believe". I resisted Calvinism doctrines until one day, after facing fustrations for "answers" on the topic of infant deaths as well as mental disabilities' spiritually. Once I understood, I accepted whether I like it or not. Faith is accepting God's Sovereign. Period.

I am not adopting Calvin's doctrine but rather I am agreeing with Calvin's doctrines. I don't agree with him 100% but again I never met a Christian who agrees with me 100% of all doctrines.

 

[BereanTodd]

If you do a little research on John Calvin you may want to forsake believing his doctrine.

I love church history, and probably am quite more well versed in it than you, so I know all about Calvin. I don't agree with these things because Calvin did, I agree with them because the Bible does, Calvin just happened to get it right.

I'm not 100% in agreement with Calvin because:

a. He was a reformed theologian, I'm a dispensationalist pre-mil.

b. I believe the atonement was both limited and unlimited. I consider myself a 5-point calvinist, but there is a sense in which it was an unlimited atonement, it's a rather deep concept, but it has to do with the roles Christ fulfilled. PM me if you would like more details, I don't feel like getting too side-tracked in this thread.

 

[mlqurgw]

I love church history, and probably am quite more well versed in it than you, so I know all about Calvin. I don't agree with these things because Calvin did, I agree with them because the Bible does, Calvin just happened to get it right.

I'm not 100% in agreement with Calvin because:

a. He was a reformed theologian, I'm a dispensationalist pre-mil.

b. I believe the atonement was both limited and unlimited. I consider myself a 5-point calvinist, but there is a sense in which it was an unlimited atonement, it's a rather deep concept, but it has to do with the roles Christ fulfilled. PM me if you would like more details, I don't feel like getting too side-tracked in this thread.

I would be very interested in reading you views on this. I hold to particular redemption because of the roles Christ fulfilled. I will post something I wrote on it, if you don't mind, please answer with your views. I don't want to debate it but simply see how we may have different perspectives on it. Really looking forward to reading your view.

 

[DMagoh]

Here is my view on "Whosoever Will" (Unlimited Atonement)...


http://www.christianforums.com/t5149854-dmagoh-on-whosoever-will-unlimited-atonement.html

 

[JimfromOhio]

I believe the atonement is limited to those whoever believe (which is whoever), whereas the Arminian side of it would say that everybody’s sins have been paid for by Christ's atonement (unlimited).

Does it appear to be contradictory? To me Arminian teaches that Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of people who don’t believe. What happened to "Whoever"?

That’s the problem I am having. Why? If everyone sins are paid for already by Jesus and you go to where? That’s double jeopardy.

It is TRUE that Christ died on the Cross for EVERYONE !!

The concept of th atonement basically means whoever believe in Christ will not perish.

While whoever do not believe in Christ will NOT get the benefit of Christ's atonement.

Christ's purpose to die for everyone but the atonement is only limited to those whoever allowed the Holy Spirit to work in their hearts to let Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit is inviting everyone as in Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." in John 6:44, Jesus said "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." Again, Jesus said in verse 65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled him." The Holy Spirit have been trying to draw people to Him by convicting them to repent and put their faith in God.

Jesus said in John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

Jesus set an example why people do NOT turn to God is in Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple. The Cross means we are under Grace and that we are to accept the Holy Spirit's convictions for our salvation. Jesus said in Matthew 5:8 "God blesses those whose hearts are pure, for they will see God." If we give our hearts to God, then we will know, with the help from the Holy Spirit, we will understand the definition of the Cross which is "Salvation is free, ... but discipleship will cost you your life." (Dietrich Bonhoeffer) It is finished. It is UP to us to GIVE up sinful nature and worldly pleasures. Contentment is enthusiasm with no worldly cause. One of the greatest examples I have learn is from Lot's wife. Lot's wife died when she looked back. Looking back means you rely on flesh's desires more than the Holy Spirit's conviction to repent from sins. Repenting is picking up the cross by rejecting the world. Romans 6:6 "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—" Galatians 5:24 "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires."

Romans 9:19 says "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" The Holy Spirit convicts a person to repent his/her pride by "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." (Matthew 23:12)

Spiritual conviction of the Holy Spirit leads us to "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death". 2 Corinthians 7:10