Why There Cannot Be Predestination

[Seeker of the Truth]

Dean and Ron both flat out tell people, "your wrong."

Guess you haven't been here long enough...

 

[Matthan]

I find it more than a bit amusing that one of the few things that the Catholic church and the Southern Baptist Convention agree on is the heresy of predestination where God preordains some to salvation and others to perdition.

Matthan

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

I find it more than a bit amusing that one of the few things that the Catholic church and the Southern Baptist Convention agree on is the heresy of predestination where God preordains some to salvation and others to perdition.

Matthan

I find it amusing that Calvinists and Gnostics agree on is absolute Predestination.

 

[edie19]

No one denies free will as such but the point is what is our will actually free to do. Our will is in bondage to sin and so whilst free it is a slave and is unable to will anything good.

Exactly - man, due to his free will, can only and will only choose sin. We only choose God after the Holy Spirit has convicted us and turned our hearts towards God.

 

[JimfromOhio]

The only "freewill" we have is whether we acknowledge the "conviction" of the Holy Spirit to turn to God and repent. We don't choose God, God chose us as Ephesians 1:4 explains: just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Jesus said in John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

 

[MbiaJc]

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:



So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan

God determined at the determent council that whosoever chooses to believe on His Son, He would give them power to become sons of God.

That is free will and predestination pure and simple.

 

[DeaconDean]

I do not deny the fact that Bible uses the word 'predestine,' that's obvious enough.

I disagree with your interpretation of it, and Calvinists interpretation.

Dean and Ron both flat out tell people, "your wrong."

Guess you haven't been here long enough...

Its not my interpretation, or Ron's, or Calvin's. It is what God says, its what the Bible says, plain and simple. That was God speaking to Paul and Peter through the Holy Spirit.

I wanted to make sure what I said earlier was correct, so when I went home, I looked up the word "predestine" in Kittel's dictionary, here is what it says:

"Proorivzw:

This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only 6 times in the NT in the sense “to foreordain” “to predestinate.” Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizeinis a stronger form of oJpizeinv,a( Vol. I, p. 453). The synonyms and textual history show that the ref. in proginwvskeinis the same. Rom. 8:29: oti ouV proegnw, kai prowrisen summorfouV thV eikonoV tou uiou autou, eiV to einai auton :, Rom. 8:30: ouV ... prowrisen (A: proevgnw), touvtouV kai; ejkavlesen,(Vol. I, p. 715; Vol. III, p. 396). The omniscient God has determined everything in advance,b both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal.c When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Jesus Christ, it may be said: h ceir sou kai h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai.,Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn:
1 Cor. 2:7, (Vol. IV, p. 819). The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou :, Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proorisqenteV kata proqesin tou ta panta energountoV, Eph. 1:11d1


a proopizw. Cf. also E.v. Dobschu&tz, “Pradestinstion,” ThStKr, 106 (1934/35). 9-19, and K.Staab, Pauluskomm. Aus d. alten gr. Kirche (1933), (Orig.), 95 (Diodore of Tarsus).

b The OT prophets also speak of what is determined far in advance, cf. esp. 2 Kings 19:25; Isa. 22:11.

c R. Liechtenhan, “D. gottliche, Vorherbestimmung bei Pls. U. in d. Posidonianischen Philosophie,” FRL, NF, 18, (1922). 17-24.


d If, acc. To Cr.-Ko., 822 “proopivzein is a purely formal concept, and not (like progivwvskein in Rom. 8:29), one which is independent and self-contained,” we have to remember that the decisive subj., God, overrides any such distinction.

1 Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Commentary by: K.L.Schmidt, Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI., Vol. V, p. 456, proopivzw


What I say has come from deep searching, and reading literally hundreds of articles and commentaries.

Other than eschatology, of which I have dedicated some 20 plus years to studying, election and predestination I have intensly studied for the last 8-9 years, as a friend of mine on the forums will testify to.

What gets me, is the fact that people will not let God be absolutely sovereign.

So what if God does create some for eternal life? So what if God does create some not for eternal life? Are we going be so arrogant as to question the "potter" as to why he made the clay into what He did?

Are we not taught:

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" -Rom. 9:21 (KJV)

Are we not to allow God to form the creation any way He wants?

Are we gonna be arrogant and ask God:

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" -Rom. 9:20 (KJV)

All I can say is what the scriptures teach, and they do teach that before this world was ever created, God chose some to be the recepticants of His divine love, for no other reason other than it pleased Him to do so. And with that decision, God foreordained the means to get us there.

Free will is an illusion. God Himself said:

"...the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;" -Gen. 8:21 (KJV)

Jesus even said:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:" -Mt. 15:18-20 (KJV)

And until man has that supernatural, regenerating work done to him upon the heart by the Holy Spirit, man can not do nothing else other than what is in the heart.

Psa. 65:4 says:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

Man does not approach God on his own, God through the workings of the Holy Spirit causes man to approach Him.

Did Paul not teach that God said:

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." -Rom. 9:15-16,18 (KJV)

It is God who chooses. It is God who calls. It is God who wills. It is God who causes man to approach Him. It is God who decides on whom, He will and will not have mercy on. And it is God who hardens the heart of those He hardens. God is the cause, not man and his free will.

Is not the creation subject to the creator?

Or are we going to make God subject to His creation?

Are we the potter or are we the clay?

You may or may not agree with this, but nevertheless, that is what the scriptures teach.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Matthan]

Exactly - man, due to his free will, can only and will only choose sin. We only choose God after the Holy Spirit has convicted us and turned our hearts towards God.

I guess your opinion surprises me. Here is another verse worth your study if and when you might have the opportunity. It is from 2nd Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

I did the analysis. The Greek is plain and easy to understand. And the obvious meaning is extremely clear. God want all men to be saved, but He knows only some will be saved. Why? Because only some will come to true repentance. But you believe whatever you want.

Matthan

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

So what if God does create some for eternal life? So what if God does create some not for eternal life? Are we going be so arrogant as to question the "potter" as to why he made the clay into what He did?

Err, yeah. It goes against God's nature to just simply pick and choose who to live in eternal bliss and the rest to eternal torture. How ridiculous is that? What I don't understand is how you could possibly think that that is even possible. The god you speak of is certainly not the God of the Bible. For the God of the Bible is a loving God. Sure, He is certainly Just as well. But, to eternally torture someone because YOU made them believe not is ridiculous, Dean. I know I'm only 18, but my brain functions just as well as yours, if not better. And, I only say that because you obviously don't think about things like this (absolute Predestination) as much as I. Read the Bible, not a few verses in Ephesians, and you will see that the God of the Bible gives us a choice. He may predetermine after that choice, but that's just another interpretation of those "select" verses that you pull out.

It is God who chooses. It is God who calls. It is God who wills. It is God who causes man to approach Him. It is God who decides on whom, He will and will not have mercy on. And it is God who hardens the heart of those He hardens. God is the cause, not man and his free will.

"The acts of God are like the Sun, which could say, 'I both soften and harden.' Although these two actions are opposite, the sun would not speak falsely, because the same heat both softens wax and hardens mud. Similarly, on the one hand, the miracles performed through Moses hardened Pharaoh because of his own wickedness. But the softened the mixed Egyptian multitude, who left Egypt with the Hebrews."
-Origen

 

[Matthan]

You know, when I started this thread, all I had in mind was to point out a very basic truth relating to the heresy of predestination, and I figured (hoped?) that common sense would rule the day and folks would see the truth. Of course I now better understand that there are quite a few readers and contributors here who feel just the opposite, and actually believe in predestination by God. And personally, I find that very troubling.

Oh, nobody who believes in God would ever doubt that He created everything, and that He is in ultimate control of everything. But, what I find much harder to believe, is that there are so many individuals who cannot see that God, in His own infinite wisdom, omniscience and omnipotence, permits man to think for himself, and make decisions for himself. God certainly knows who will be sharing Heaven with Him, but He in no way forces those persons to make the "right" decisions, neither does He in any way cause them to make those decisions that would keep them from ever knowing Him. He must always remain faithful to His own holiness, and requiring any person to love Him would not do that. He wants us to love Him, but He will never require us to love Him.

Anyone who looks at Genesis and the saga of Adam and Eve should quickly understand that there cannot be anything like predestination by God. If there were, then Adam would never have sinned. But, he did sin. And God knew he would sin, well before he actually sinned. God did not cause Adam to sin, neither did He prevent it from happening. He could have done either, because He is God Almighty. Because He is God, He did neither. Why was that? Because while He has an overall plan for mankind, and while He is in charge of everything, He still wants us to come to Him. He wants our love for Him to be freely given by us, and not some kind of rquirement by Him. We must want to be with Him, and serve Him. And that, my Christian brothers and sisters, absolutely requires our own free will.

Now, what I am about to say should not be taken as either an insult or as any kind of "I'm smarter than you are" situation. You folks who cling to calvinism should do a complete rethink on your beliefs. Place your trust in God alone, and not man's faulty reasoning. Please remember that I really am a country boy, and not very smart. The revelation of God having to judge Himself if there were predestination is not something I thought up. It came to me out of the blue. More importantly, it came to me for a specific reason. So please ask yourself why it came to me. And also ask yourself about God's judgement of Himself, too.

Matthan

 

[mlqurgw]

You know, when I started this thread, all I had in mind was to point out a very basic truth relating to the heresy of predestination, and I figured (hoped?) that common sense would rule the day and folks would see the truth. Of course I now better understand that there are quite a few readers and contributors here who feel just the opposite, and actually believe in predestination by God. And personally, I find that very troubling.

Oh, nobody who believes in God would ever doubt that He created everything, and that He is in ultimate control of everything. But, what I find much harder to believe, is that there are so many individuals who cannot see that God, in His own infinite wisdom, omniscience and omnipotence, permits man to think for himself, and make decisions for himself. God certainly knows who will be sharing Heaven with Him, but He in no way forces those persons to make the "right" decisions, neither does He in any way cause them to make those decisions that would keep them from ever knowing Him. He must always remain faithful to His own holiness, and requiring any person to love Him would not do that. He wants us to love Him, but He will never require us to love Him.

Anyone who looks at Genesis and the saga of Adam and Eve should quickly understand that there cannot be anything like predestination by God. If there were, then Adam would never have sinned. But, he did sin. And God knew he would sin, well before he actually sinned. God did not cause Adam to sin, neither did He prevent it from happening. He could have done either, because He is God Almighty. Because He is God, He did neither. Why was that? Because while He has an overall plan for mankind, and while He is in charge of everything, He still wants us to come to Him. He wants our love for Him to be freely given by us, and not some kind of rquirement by Him. We must want to be with Him, and serve Him. And that, my Christian brothers and sisters, absolutely requires our own free will.

Now, what I am about to say should not be taken as either an insult or as any kind of "I'm smarter than you are" situation. You folks who cling to calvinism should do a complete rethink on your beliefs. Place your trust in God alone, and not man's faulty reasoning. Please remember that I really am a country boy, and not very smart. The revelation of God having to judge Himself if there were predestination is not something I thought up. It came to me out of the blue. More importantly, it came to me for a specific reason. So please ask yourself why it came to me. And also ask yourself about God's judgement of Himself, too.

Matthan

Mattan;
I do understand both your earnestness and concern that others know truth. I share it. I am not here to make people Calvinists. I could care less if you are or aren't. I am not a Calvinist strictly speaking. Nor am I Reformed. There are many things in both systems that I strongly disagree with. Still, the truth of God is extremely important to me. I have absolutely no doubt that the Doctrines of Grace commonly called the five points are truth. I find them all over Scripture and have had them written on my heart by the Spirit. They are humbling and comforting truths.
The problem I see with most arguments, including yours, against them is the lack of knowledge of what those doctrines actually teach. That is why we constantly reply straw man. It is both frustrating and annoying to have to correct the false views of "Calvinism" only to have them ignored and the same old arguments repeated.
Believe it or not I do understand the teaching of free will and recognize that it does appeal to us naturally. If God had not taught me these things by His Word through the Spirit I would believe the same as you.
I would much rather speak the truth in love than out of frustration at the constant barrage of straw man arguments that never seem to end. I have heard your argument before. It isn't really new. I have been at this a long time and am tired of it.

 

[Hagios17]

Matthan, I'm a little skeptical to give you this. Perhaps I am wrong, cause it kinda implies Yeshua made all things, but I'm gonna quote it here. Do with it what you will...

This is just something I was exclusively thinking about. I had no help from any anti Catholic or Anglican reformer, etc. This is just some of my ideas, reflections and thoughts while contemplating God's carnal-mind-breaking-and-spiritual-mind-awakening-word... what do you think?

Statement: God has foreknowledge of everything; knows everything before it existed, i.e. "I knew you before you were in your mother's womb..." or as in Ephessians.

Keys:
Object A = God
Object B = Everything else besides God

Premise: If Object A existed before Object B, (being everything besides Object A), then Object A created Object B.

The assumption is that because Object A is the only possible pre-existent entity to Object B, being absolutely everything else besides Object A, it must have then created Object B.

----------
Possible Inconsistencies:

Now if we say human choice and action aren't included in Object B then the statement and premise changes, that is if you agree with my statement and premise:

New Statement: God doesn't have foreknowledge of everything; God never created and formed everything.

Keys:
Object A = God
Object B = Everything God created
Object C = Everything God hasn't created

New Premise: If Object A and Object C are both "undetermined", and Object B is determined by Object A, then Object C existed before Object B with Object A.

Thus in a sense, by saying something is "undetermined" you are implying that it has the very nature of God to pre-existent, etc.

Perhaps Free will is just another reason for protestants and Catholics to worship their wills? And perhaps Free will renders itself a God? (The Bible does talk about those who worship themselves.)

 

[Matthan]

Matthan, I'm a little skeptical to give you this. Perhaps I am wrong, cause it kinda implies Yeshua made all things, but I'm gonna quote it here. Do with it what you will...

"This is just something I was exclusively thinking about. I had no help from any anti Catholic or Anglican reformer, etc. This is just some of my ideas, reflections and thoughts while contemplating God's carnal-mind-breaking-and-spiritual-mind-awakening-word... what do you think?

Statement: God has foreknowledge of everything; knows everything before it existed, i.e. "I knew you before you were in your mother's womb..." or as in Ephessians.

Keys:
Object A = God
Object B = Everything else besides God

Premise: If Object A existed before Object B, (being everything besides Object A), then Object A created Object B.

The assumption is that because Object A is the only possible pre-existent entity to Object B, being absolutely everything else besides Object A, it must have then created Object B.

----------
Possible Inconsistencies:

Now if we say human choice and action aren't included in Object B then the statement and premise changes, that is if you agree with my statement and premise:

New Statement: God doesn't have foreknowledge of everything; God never created and formed everything.

Keys:
Object A = God
Object B = Everything God created
Object C = Everything God hasn't created

New Premise: If Object A and Object C are both "undetermined", and Object B is determined by Object A, then Object C existed before Object B with Object A.

Thus in a sense, by saying something is "undetermined" you are implying that it has the very nature of God to pre-existent, etc.

Perhaps Free will is just another reason for protestants and Catholics to worship their wills? And perhaps Free will renders itself a God? (The Bible does talk about those who worship themselves.)

I'm afraid you missed the point altogether. And the logic of your argument can be found somewhere between silly and non-existent . God did create man, but then He gave man the use of his own will, thus making it "free" will. God wanted man to freely decide to follow Him, but God did not want to require man to follow Him. That is why God wanted Adam to abide by the few laws set down before him, and Adam decided to violate those laws. That is why God wanted the Israelites to worship only Him, and the Israelites decided to instead worship idols. That is why God wanted the Jews to accept Jesus as the Son of God, but the Jews instead decided to reject Him and keep their status quo. That is why God wants us to freely come to Him, and why some do while others do not.

The OT is chucked full of situations where God wanted one thing and man decided on his own to do something else.

Yes, God did create everything. Therefore, Yes, God did create man. And, as part of that creation of man, God gave man the ability to make decisions for himself. Those decisions do not affect God in any way, but only affect man and his relationship with God, or his lack of a relationship with God. Man determines his own destiny with respect to God by freely doing the work of God (and not his own work or works), and God does not interfere because God does not respect persons.

As I stated in an earlier post, you can deny the truth, but you cannot change it. Man has free will, and examples that man has used his own free will can be found from Genesis to Revelation.

Do not equate pre-knowledge (omniscience) of God with pre-ordination by God. Of course God knows everything that will happen, but that in no way requires Him to also cause everything to happen. The Bible is also chucked full of examples of that fact as well.

You see, the entire theory of predestination, or preordination by God (as opposed to pre-knowledge without divine decree to cause any actions) is a product of sinful man. It really does not come from God, but man in his faulty wisdom states that God meant it to be so even if God did not clearly state it to be so. But God does not work that way. By way of example, He clearly wanted the Jews to come to Him, and worship Him only. But they were a stiff-necked people, and did their own thing using their own free will. (How hard do you think it would have been for God to require the Jews to worship Him?) But He didn't, so why didn't He? Because that was not the way He wanted it to be. He wanted them to worship Him of their own free will and accord.

So He sent Jesus. One of His stated goals was to make the Jews jealous of the Gentiles, which once again requires them to use their own free will. He wanted all men to come to Him by using their own free will. But He never required them to come to Him, which He certainly could have done had He wanted to. Why didn't He want to? Free will, once again. He wants people to freely love Him, not love Him because He requires or preordains that love from them. He knows that such affection on their parts would not be any affection at all, only His power being demonstrated.

Hey, you can deny the truth, but you cannot change it. And God cannot judge Himself.

Matthan

 

[Hagios17]

God gave man free will, the ability to make decisions himself? Do you understand the implications of "God gave man free will"?

...Where did God get this free will? Did he peradventure find it floating in pre=existent realiy with him... or did he himself... CREATE... our uncreated wills?

But, I never expected you to state more than motivating. I honestly don't beleive talking about Choice proves free will. I choose, I act... I deliberate, but that is not to say that I have free will. You haven't really addressed my statement and premise really.

How has God created this uncreated will (free will) *uherm... inconsistency... contradiction

 

[DeaconDean]

Err, yeah. It goes against God's nature to just simply pick and choose who to live in eternal bliss and the rest to eternal torture. How ridiculous is that? What I don't understand is how you could possibly think that that is even possible. The god you speak of is certainly not the God of the Bible. For the God of the Bible is a loving God. Sure, He is certainly Just as well. But, to eternally torture someone because YOU made them believe not is ridiculous, Dean. I know I'm only 18, but my brain functions just as well as yours, if not better. And, I only say that because you obviously don't think about things like this (absolute Predestination) as much as I. Read the Bible, not a few verses in Ephesians, and you will see that the God of the Bible gives us a choice. He may predetermine after that choice, but that's just another interpretation of those "select" verses that you pull out.

Friend, to you, and Matthan, and my friend Ron, I do subscribe to some of what John Calvin taught, not all, but some. And I do favor the Reformed camp. But I will say this up front, noboby, not Calvin, not James Arminus, not the Pope, not Paul, not Peter, not me, not you, not anybody has been 100% right, 100% of the time. I only know of one theologian who was 100% right, 100% of the time, and that was Jesus Christ.

What I was trying to bring out is that scriptures do indeed teach predestination. That is a fact. And it is also a fact that you have not studied God at length, because if you would have, you would have found out that yes, God is a loving God, but in the Holy Scriptures, which I hold very dear to my heart, there are more teachings, there are more quotes, there are more scriptures which point out that our God is indeed a God of wrath. In fact, the scriptures speak more of His righteous wrath than they do of His love. But you probably think I'm wrong on that also.

Nevertheless, this will be my last post in this thread. Since it is the opinion of most, that I am so wrong, I will post this one last item, and them I'll take my leave and let you good poeple hash this out amongest yourselves.

I want to show you this, from the Greek we read:

"akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion)

-Acts 13:48 (GNT)​

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ​

-Acts 13:48 (KJV)​

From the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, we will address only three words, eiV, zwhn, aiwnion,and here we read this:​

eiV denotes appointment: (Mt. 5:22; 1 Cor. 11:22; 14:22; Col. 2:22; Jas. 5:3; Rev. 22:2). In religious contexts, there is reference a. to divine appointment.​

The angels are spirits which in the divine service are sent to minister to those who shall inherit salvation (Hb. 1:14). Moses was qerapwn eiV marturion twn lalhqhsomenwn, a minister appointed to bear witness to what should be said (Hb. 3:5). What was written in scripture was written for the instruction of later generations (Rom. 15:4). Paul is appointed to publish the good news (Rom. 1:1). His readers are not appointed to wrath but to the winning of salvation (1 Thes. 5:9; 2 Thes. 2:13), to sonship (Eph. 1:5). God has begotten believers again to a living hope and an incorruptable inheritance (1 Pet. 1:3f.).​

In the NT, however, there is an appointment not only to eternal life (Acts 13:48 tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion) but also judicially. though not as a decretum absolutum, to stumbling in the case of disobedient (1 Pet. 2:8 eiVo [proskoptein] kaieteqhsan) -> tassw, tiqhmi. If God does not not have the direct purpose, He certainly has the right and the power to appoint vessels to -> atimian as well as to -> timhn (Rom. 9:21 ff. and a little less sharply in 2 Tim. 2:20 f.). How to define and to delimit the doctrine of twofold predestination is another question. But it certainly cannot be ruled out altogether."

-Theological Dictionary of the New Thestament,
Gerhard Kittel, editor, Geoffery W. Bromeily, Translator,
Vol. II, p. 428​

zwh in a generic sense, it means life, a living existence, but in the NT, this word is used more in reference to the spiritual life of the believer whom has been delievered from the proper penalty of sin, and of the final life redeemed, it also has reference to life, the source of spiritual life. The sovereignty of God is expressed in the NT in OT phrases like: osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion, Acts 13:48 and also by originally deterministic ideas like that of the book or books of life in which those predestinated to life are inscribed, though the element of determinism is now removed.​

-Ibid, p. 864​

lagcanw "to attain" usually by lot (cf. Hesych.: lagcanein klhroun). With striking frequency it is thus combined with the word group klhpo klhpoun etc. Even where there is no casting lots, the attainment is not by ones own effort or as a result of ones own exertions, but it is like ripe fruit falling into ones lap. This is always to be kept in mind...the point of lagcanein is that faith has come to them from God with no cooperation on their part. That faith is the work, not of man, but of God or Christ, is not stated with equal clairity in all parts of the NT, but it must be constantly borne in mind. It can be seen clearly in Acts 13:48, and 17:31 is particularly relevant in expounding the present passage for here, God proffers faith to all. Again in Rom. 12:3, God appoints the measure of faith. The same thought occurs in the chain of Rom. 8:28-30, and cf. also Heb 12:2 pistewV, and Jude 3 paradoqeisha. God does not merely give to both Jews and Gentiles the possibility of faith, He effects faith in them. Eph. 2:8 makes it especially plain that all is of grace and that human merit is completely ruled out."​

-Ibid, Vol. IV, p. 1-2​

All through this, we see that there is a definate "predestination" from God based solely on Him, not anything we have done, or will do, but dependant on Him alone.

There is such a thing as predestination, foreordaination, and no such thing as free will as to whether on his own decides to come to God.

Man and his so called free will was established by Pelagius, condemned, and finally brought to fruition in the belief of semi-pelagism. James Arminus taught that man was not effected by Adam's fall, and thus man in his free will could work along side God, or cooperate with God to bring about his (mans) salvation. Scriptures do not support this.

To deny what scriptures say:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

Was not the prophet Jeremiah predestinted, and foreordained? The scriptures say different:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." -Jer. 1:5 (KJV)

Did Jeremiah have any say so what so ever in this? Did Jeremiah exercise his "free will" to do this? "I trow not." (Lk. 17:9 KJV)

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" -Mt. 25:34 (KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph. 1:4-5 (KJV)

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -Rom. 8:28-30 (KJV)

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -Acts 13:48 (KJV)

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." -Jas. 1:18 (KJV)

To deny what the scriptures say, to me, that takes away from God what is rightfully due Him, and puts it on man, where it never should, and does not belong.

Ron, if I have offended you, then I apologize. I will still continue to respect and value your opinion.

Now that I've had my say, and since opinion prevails against me, I'll bow out gracefully, wish you all God Bless, and take my leave. And I know this will make some very happy.

May the Lord God bless you each and every one.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

Dean, I never said I didn't believe in Predestination. I believe in both Predestination and Free-Will.

Is that possible? Well, yes.

It seems as though a lot of this discussion between some Calvinists and I has actually been one large misconception.

I do believe that God knows who are going to "be saved." I also believe He elected them to actually be saved. As God knew beforehand that they would have the faith, they would repent of their sins, and they would do His will. So, He sent Christ to save those that believe, repent, and do His will (aka "get saved").

Now, do I believe that God gives some faith and others no faith? Certainly not.

Do I believe that God would send some to Heaven because He gave them the faith and the others to Hell because He gave them no faith? Again, no.

For this, you have offered no Scriptural evidence. Please, PM me if you want to discuss this latter part of this post.

 

[mlqurgw]

Friend, to you, and Matthan, and my friend Ron, I do subscribe to some of what John Calvin taught, not all, but some. And I do favor the Reformed camp. But I will say this up front, noboby, not Calvin, not James Arminus, not the Pope, not Paul, not Peter, not me, not you, not anybody has been 100% right, 100% of the time. I only know of one theologian who was 100% right, 100% of the time, and that was Jesus Christ.

What I was trying to bring out is that scriptures do indeed teach predestination. That is a fact. And it is also a fact that you have not studied God at length, because if you would have, you would have found out that yes, God is a loving God, but in the Holy Scriptures, which I hold very dear to my heart, there are more teachings, there are more quotes, there are more scriptures which point out that our God is indeed a God of wrath. In fact, the scriptures speak more of His righteous wrath than they do of His love. But you probably think I'm wrong on that also.

Nevertheless, this will be my last post in this thread. Since it is the opinion of most, that I am so wrong, I will post this one last item, and them I'll take my leave and let you good poeple hash this out amongest yourselves.

I want to show you this, from the Greek we read:

"akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion)

-Acts 13:48 (GNT)​

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ​

-Acts 13:48 (KJV)​

From the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, we will address only three words, eiV, zwhn, aiwnion,and here we read this:​

eiV denotes appointment: (Mt. 5:22; 1 Cor. 11:22; 14:22; Col. 2:22; Jas. 5:3; Rev. 22:2). In religious contexts, there is reference a. to divine appointment.​

The angels are spirits which in the divine service are sent to minister to those who shall inherit salvation (Hb. 1:14). Moses was qerapwn eiV marturion twn lalhqhsomenwn, a minister appointed to bear witness to what should be said (Hb. 3:5). What was written in scripture was written for the instruction of later generations (Rom. 15:4). Paul is appointed to publish the good news (Rom. 1:1). His readers are not appointed to wrath but to the winning of salvation (1 Thes. 5:9; 2 Thes. 2:13), to sonship (Eph. 1:5). God has begotten believers again to a living hope and an incorruptable inheritance (1 Pet. 1:3f.).​

In the NT, however, there is an appointment not only to eternal life (Acts 13:48 tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion) but also judicially. though not as a decretum absolutum, to stumbling in the case of disobedient (1 Pet. 2:8 eiVo [proskoptein] kaieteqhsan) -> tassw, tiqhmi. If God does not not have the direct purpose, He certainly has the right and the power to appoint vessels to -> atimian as well as to -> timhn (Rom. 9:21 ff. and a little less sharply in 2 Tim. 2:20 f.). How to define and to delimit the doctrine of twofold predestination is another question. But it certainly cannot be ruled out altogether."

-Theological Dictionary of the New Thestament,
Gerhard Kittel, editor, Geoffery W. Bromeily, Translator,
Vol. II, p. 428​

zwh in a generic sense, it means life, a living existence, but in the NT, this word is used more in reference to the spiritual life of the believer whom has been delievered from the proper penalty of sin, and of the final life redeemed, it also has reference to life, the source of spiritual life. The sovereignty of God is expressed in the NT in OT phrases like: osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion, Acts 13:48 and also by originally deterministic ideas like that of the book or books of life in which those predestinated to life are inscribed, though the element of determinism is now removed.​

-Ibid, p. 864​

lagcanw "to attain" usually by lot (cf. Hesych.: lagcanein klhroun). With striking frequency it is thus combined with the word group klhpo klhpoun etc. Even where there is no casting lots, the attainment is not by ones own effort or as a result of ones own exertions, but it is like ripe fruit falling into ones lap. This is always to be kept in mind...the point of lagcanein is that faith has come to them from God with no cooperation on their part. That faith is the work, not of man, but of God or Christ, is not stated with equal clairity in all parts of the NT, but it must be constantly borne in mind. It can be seen clearly in Acts 13:48, and 17:31 is particularly relevant in expounding the present passage for here, God proffers faith to all. Again in Rom. 12:3, God appoints the measure of faith. The same thought occurs in the chain of Rom. 8:28-30, and cf. also Heb 12:2 pistewV, and Jude 3 paradoqeisha. God does not merely give to both Jews and Gentiles the possibility of faith, He effects faith in them. Eph. 2:8 makes it especially plain that all is of grace and that human merit is completely ruled out."​

-Ibid, Vol. IV, p. 1-2​

All through this, we see that there is a definate "predestination" from God based solely on Him, not anything we have done, or will do, but dependant on Him alone.

There is such a thing as predestination, foreordaination, and no such thing as free will as to whether on his own decides to come to God.

Man and his so called free will was established by Pelagius, condemned, and finally brought to fruition in the belief of semi-pelagism. James Arminus taught that man was not effected by Adam's fall, and thus man in his free will could work along side God, or cooperate with God to bring about his (mans) salvation. Scriptures do not support this.

To deny what scriptures say:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

Was not the prophet Jeremiah predestinted, and foreordained? The scriptures say different:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." -Jer. 1:5 (KJV)

Did Jeremiah have any say so what so ever in this? Did Jeremiah exercise his "free will" to do this? "I trow not." (Lk. 17:9 KJV)

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" -Mt. 25:34 (KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph. 1:4-5 (KJV)

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -Rom. 8:28-30 (KJV)

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -Acts 13:48 (KJV)

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." -Jas. 1:18 (KJV)

To deny what the scriptures say, to me, that takes away from God what is rightfully due Him, and puts it on man, where it never should, and does not belong.

Ron, if I have offended you, then I apologize. I will still continue to respect and value your opinion.

Now that I've had my say, and since opinion prevails against me, I'll bow out gracefully, wish you all God Bless, and take my leave. And I know this will make some very happy.

May the Lord God bless you each and every one.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I am not sure why you would think any of this would offend me, my brother. I find nothing in it that I would disagree with. With the possible exception of the statement that God proffers faith to all, which I bolded. Though even that is an understandable difference.

 

[eldermike]

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:



So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan

So, God learns things and then judges them? and thus has not, all knowledge?

We face a problem when trying to understand doctrines, it's Theology. God's nature is what it is.
God is timeless and thus we can't apply limits of time on God.
God knows everything, thus we can't find Him learning something new about men.
These two issue together are enough to make me search deeper.

 

[Matthan]

Friend, to you, and Matthan, and my friend Ron, I do subscribe to some of what John Calvin taught, not all, but some. And I do favor the Reformed camp. But I will say this up front, noboby, not Calvin, not James Arminus, not the Pope, not Paul, not Peter, not me, not you, not anybody has been 100% right, 100% of the time. I only know of one theologian who was 100% right, 100% of the time, and that was Jesus Christ.

What I was trying to bring out is that scriptures do indeed teach predestination. That is a fact. And it is also a fact that you have not studied God at length, because if you would have, you would have found out that yes, God is a loving God, but in the Holy Scriptures, which I hold very dear to my heart, there are more teachings, there are more quotes, there are more scriptures which point out that our God is indeed a God of wrath. In fact, the scriptures speak more of His righteous wrath than they do of His love. But you probably think I'm wrong on that also.

I want to show you this, from the Greek we read:

"akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion)

-Acts 13:48 (GNT)​

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ​

-Acts 13:48 (KJV)​

From the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, we will address only three words, eiV, zwhn, aiwnion,and here we read this:​

eiV denotes appointment: (Mt. 5:22; 1 Cor. 11:22; 14:22; Col. 2:22; Jas. 5:3; Rev. 22:2). In religious contexts, there is reference a. to divine appointment.​

​

lagcanw "to attain" usually by lot (cf. Hesych.: lagcanein klhroun). With striking frequency it is thus combined with the word group klhpo klhpoun etc. Even where there is no casting lots, the attainment is not by ones own effort or as a result of ones own exertions, but it is like ripe fruit falling into ones lap. This is always to be kept in mind...the point of lagcanein is that faith has come to them from God with no cooperation on their part. That faith is the work, not of man, but of God or Christ, is not stated with equal clairity in all parts of the NT, but it must be constantly borne in mind. It can be seen clearly in Acts 13:48, and 17:31 is particularly relevant in expounding the present passage for here, God proffers faith to all. Again in Rom. 12:3, God appoints the measure of faith. The same thought occurs in the chain of Rom. 8:28-30, and cf. also Heb 12:2 pistewV, and Jude 3 paradoqeisha. God does not merely give to both Jews and Gentiles the possibility of faith, He effects faith in them. Eph. 2:8 makes it especially plain that all is of grace and that human merit is completely ruled out."​

-Ibid, Vol. IV, p. 1-2​

All through this, we see that there is a definate "predestination" from God based solely on Him, not anything we have done, or will do, but dependant on Him alone.

There is such a thing as predestination, foreordaination, and no such thing as free will as to whether on his own decides to come to God.

Man and his so called free will was established by Pelagius, condemned, and finally brought to fruition in the belief of semi-pelagism. James Arminus taught that man was not effected by Adam's fall, and thus man in his free will could work along side God, or cooperate with God to bring about his (mans) salvation. Scriptures do not support this.

To deny what scriptures say:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

Was not the prophet Jeremiah predestinted, and foreordained? The scriptures say different:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." -Jer. 1:5 (KJV)

Did Jeremiah have any say so what so ever in this? Did Jeremiah exercise his "free will" to do this? "I trow not." (Lk. 17:9 KJV)

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" -Mt. 25:34 (KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph. 1:4-5 (KJV)

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -Rom. 8:28-30 (KJV)

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -Acts 13:48 (KJV)

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." -Jas. 1:18 (KJV)

To deny what the scriptures say, to me, that takes away from God what is rightfully due Him, and puts it on man, where it never should, and does not belong.

Till all are one.

Dear Dean and Ron, I believe I now understand better the why and how we differ in our beliefs on this subject. You freely admit that God pro-offers faith to all, but then rely on God's specific election to salvation for certain chosen individuals based on His own Holy plan. My contention is that God pro-offers faith to all based on their choice and desire to do His work, which is to believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

Our primary differences appear to revolve around the tern "elect" and "election" by God. Please correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to support the position that God makes the choice for man on who is elected, and who is not. I believe that God permits man to make the choice of whether or not he will will love God. If he does develop a deep, abiding faith in Jesus as the Christ of God, and if he does repent of his sinful ways, then God will call him "elected", or justified, or saved.

You apparently believe a person elected to salvation is born with justification already imputed to him by God. I believe man must first demonstrate a desire to be justified, by doing the work of God, before God would imput righteousness to him.

Basically it all comes down to this. You maintain that, because God knows who will choose Him and who will not, that He pre-selects these individuals for justification. I, on the other hand, believe that He knows who will choose Him and who will not, and He permits those individuals to arrive at that belief on their own.

You perfer to contend that God specifically chooses those individuals who will surround Him, and worship Him, and serve Him for all eternity. I believe He leaves that decision up to individual persons to make. Our primary difference on this matter is desire. With your scenario, God creates man's desire to want to be with Him eternally. With my scenario God permits man to create his own desire to want to be with Him.

When we look at the whole of Scripture, I believe my point of view is by far the stronger. Jesus teaches us that we (whosoever) must believe in Him if we hope to obtain salvation. Peter clearly tells us that God wants all men to come to Him (in faith). The totality of verses instructing us to believe in order to obtain eternal life is simply overwhelming.

You equate fore-knowledge with fore-ordination, while I believe fore-knowledge does not require fore-ordination. I firmly believe God wants those who choose HIm to want to choose Him of their own free will, and all others are doomed eternally. You maintain that God determines who will choose Him, and He has already caused all others to be doomed.

So, is God a loving God, or is He an absolute dictator who makes every single decision on men? Since man must "earn" the wrath of God, I personally believe He is a completely loving God in all ways. You can believe what you want.

Matthan

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

Exactly what I've been trying to say, Matthan.