Why the Catholic Church changes the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday

[BobRyan]

You are not replying to my remark, so I shall reiterate. The Catholic Church does not teach that anyone need observe a seventh day Sabbath.

already responded - showing that in fact they DO argue for the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath commandment -- then I pointed to the spin that you have noticed that they use - Sabbath commandment but not seventh-day-Sabbath-of-the-Bible argument.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

Since you apparently missed it...

=======================================================

The Catholic Church does not claim that anyone is required to observe a Saturday Sabbath

Does the Catholic Church claim that there is someone on the planet that is required to observe the Sabbath that is found in the TEN Commandments??

hmmm -- Let's see

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church


===================================
2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
====================================

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

==============================

OH - you appear to be saying that while the RCC demands obedience to the Sabbath Commandment - as given in the actual Bible - it now transfers it to "week day 1" so that keeping week-day-1 as your day of worship - fulfills the Sabbath Commandment that is found in the TEN Commandments ...

Which is MY point in the title of the thread - and page 1 in general.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

 

[Open Heart]

OH - you appear to be saying that while the RCC demands obedience to the Sabbath Commandment - as given in the actual Bible - it now transfers it to "week day 1" so that keeping week-day-1 as your day of worship - fulfills the Sabbath Commandment that is found in the TEN Commandments ...

Which is MY point in the title of the thread - and page 1 in general.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

My Church does not keep a first day Sabbath in the way that Jews keep a seventh day Sabbath. It asks that if possible a Catholic not go to work on Sunday and attend Mass. That is NOTHING like a Jewish Shabbat. It creates a solemnity of the day. It does not duplicate the Sabbath of Israel.

 

[Open Heart]

Does the Catholic Church claim that there is someone on the planet that is required to observe the Sabbath that is found in the TEN Commandments??

For non-Jews, the answer is absolutely NO, not as written in the Torah (meaning on the seventh day).
For Jews? The Church is still dealing with the dominoes falling from Nostra Aetate. Nothing is set in stone. The best I can give you is that the Popes have stated that Israel is still a covenant people, and that it would logically follow that Jews should be following the terms of that covenant. So that would mean that yes, the Jews are to keep a seventh day Shabbat. But like I said, the new dogma based on Nostra Aetate is still being worked out.

 

[BobRyan]

Does the Catholic Church claim that there is someone on the planet that is required to observe the Sabbath that is found in the TEN Commandments??

hmmm -- Let's see

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church


===================================
2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

For non-Jews, the answer is absolutely NO,

The text above says "on the human heart" see your own Catechism - 2072. So when you say this does not apply to gentiles according to the RCC - are you saying the RCC does not think gentiles have a human heart??

not as written in the Torah (meaning on the seventh day).

So then what is actually in the Bible - not for gentiles ... not as God stated it regarding the 7th day.. but still the Sabbath commandment is for gentiles - just not as God stated it?

 

[BobRyan]

My Church does not keep a first day Sabbath in the way that Jews keep a seventh day Sabbath.

I agree they do not keep it as stated in the Torah no matter that they affirm all TEN

 

[Open Heart]

I agree they do not keep it as stated in the Torah no matter that they affirm all TEN

Thank you for affirming this. Therefore, it is a good idea that you stop trying to use Catholic tradition to bolster your own ideas of a Saturday Sabbath for all Christians, since really they are on the other side of the argument from you.

 

[Open Heart]

So then what is actually in the Bible - not for gentiles ... not as God stated it regarding the 7th day.. but still the Sabbath commandment is for gentiles - just not as God stated it?

You know I'm Catholic. All I can do is repeat the Catholic position, which you already know. Gentile believers are not required to keep a Saturday Sabbath as laid out in Torah. The Church, with the authority given it by Christ himself, has transferred the SOLEMNITY to the Sabbath to --not another Sabbath--THE LORD'S DAY. On this first day of the week, to remember that Christ rose, we are (if possible) to rest from work and attend Mass. We speak figuratively of the Lord's Day as a "Sabbath," because we rest on it as Jews do on the Sabbath. In this respect, it is our way of keeping the ten commandments as adjusted for Gentiles, via the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
I agree they do not keep it as stated in the Torah no matter that they affirm all TEN

Thank you for affirming this.

It was my point in the OP and page 1 of this thread. that long quote that you keep seeing is saying the same thing - that they are hammering the TEN and even the Sabbath as applicable to all humans "written on the human heart" at the same time that they (as this thread title points out) change the Sabbath commandment -- pointing it to week day 1 and not at all keeping it like the Bible Sabbath as found in the Torah.

Therefore, it is a good idea that you stop trying to use Catholic tradition to bolster your own ideas of a Saturday Sabbath for all Christians, since really they are on the other side of the argument from you.

The argument has 3 or 4 key points in it -- the fact that they fail on one or two should not be taken as the sign that they have failed on all of them. The part that they do get right -- I freely admit to even though that is the very part that you and others have been opposing.

 

[BobRyan]

You know I'm Catholic. All I can do is repeat the Catholic position, which you already know. .

That's fine... I keep posting from the Catechism, and Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II and your own Catholic Commentary on the Catechism. And I am not even Catholic - I certainly don't blame you for quoting your own RCC sources.

 

[Open Heart]

That's fine... I keep posting from the Catechism, and Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II and your own Catholic Commentary on the Catechism. And I am not even Catholic - I certainly don't blame you for quoting your sources.

I keep telling you that your commentary quote is worthless. It's one Catholics opinion.

The Catechism is a good source, but your logic there is poor. The quote simply doesn't mean what you want it to mean, especially in the larger context of Catholic teaching. IOW you are basically cherry picking a section and then quoting it out of context.

But we've gone around and around on this so many times that I don't bother with it anymore. When you do your thing of bringing it back up again ad nauseum, I just basically make a remark like, "I've already answered this."

 

[BobRyan]

I keep telling you that your commentary quote is worthless. It's one Catholics opinion. "

When I talk to someone else about this topic and want to show them an RCC document that is lauded as the "standard reference for every Catholic home and university" when it comes to commentary on the Catechism - guess what? I don't quote OH.

Certainly OH would be a great example of "its one Catholic's opinion" and I certainly do quote you in that context. But I would not put your quote at the level of "The Faith Explained". That just would not be realistic

Having said that -- you have free will and can reject the encyclical by Pope John Paul II, and the Catechism quotes I keep posting and the "Faith Explained" - I never say you can't do that.

 

[BobRyan]

But we've gone around and around on this so many times that I don't bother with it anymore. When you do your thing of bringing it back up again ad nauseum, I just basically make a remark like, "I've already answered this."

It's the topic of the thread as noted in the OP -- your opposition to those RCC quotes are fine with me - but I find them "instructive" for people interested in this topic. As well as irrefutable examples of documented Catholic statements.

 

[Open Heart]

Certainly OH would be a great example of "its one Catholic's opinion" and I certainly do quote you in that context. But I would not put your quote at the level of "The Faith Explained". That just would not be realistic

I'm putting all Catholic opinion in one basket so that you can see the difference between Catholic Opinion and Catholic Teaching.

 

[Open Heart]

It's the topic of the thread as noted in the OP -- your opposition to those RCC quotes are fine with me - but I find them "instructive" for people interested in this topic. As well as irrefutable examples of documented Catholic statements.

You are misusing the quotes, and employing a strategy that makes no sense. You could care less about Catholic Teaching. In Fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you had extremely negative (and misinformed) ideas about the Catholic Church. Clearly, CLEARLY, in the area of general believers keeping a Saturday Sabbath, the Catholic Church does NOT back you up. It is just bizarre that you continue to misappropriate quotes from sources you yourself do not trust.

When you accept the Catechism's teaching on the Sacraments, i.e., then and only then will it make sense for you to use the Catechism as a source to cite in your arguments that all believers should keep a Saturday Sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am just confused why people put the traditions and teachings of man above the Word of God when it is the Word of God that will judge us all in the last days (John 12:47-48). If we knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God we are not following God at all. In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men everywhere to repent..... We only have today seek the Lord while he may be found call upon him while he is near....

May God bless you as you seek him who loves us

 

[BobRyan]

But we've gone around and around on this so many times that I don't bother with it anymore. When you do your thing of bringing it back up again ad nauseum, I just basically make a remark like, "I've already answered this."

It's the topic of the thread as noted in the OP -- your opposition to those RCC quotes are fine with me - but I find them "instructive" for people interested in this topic. As well as irrefutable examples of documented Catholic statements.

You are misusing the quotes, and employing a strategy that makes no sense.

That is a false accusation refuted already many times.

I think we can both see that by now.

You could care less about Catholic Teaching. In Fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you had extremely negative (and misinformed) ideas about the Catholic Church.

Also not true.

Clearly, CLEARLY, in the area of general believers keeping a Saturday Sabbath, the Catholic Church does NOT back you up.

If you think you are refuting something I said - then please show all of us in an actual quote from me that I claimed that the Catholic Church thinks people should keep Sabbath on Saturday.

Will be waiting for one of your accusations to have something like evidence brought by you to show you are not simply making stuff up in your list of unsupported accusations so far.

When you accept the Catechism's teaching on the Sacraments, i.e., then and only then will it make sense for you to use the Catechism as a source .

That is nonsense and we both know it.

You are finding it "inconvenient" that some of the points in my argument where you would prefer to object - are the very points your own Catechism makes. And we both know it.

 

[BobRyan]

I keep telling you that your commentary quote is worthless. It's one Catholics opinion. "

When I talk to someone else about this topic and want to show them an RCC document that is lauded as the "standard reference for every Catholic home and university" when it comes to commentary on the Catechism - guess what? I don't quote OH.

Certainly OH would be a great example of "its one Catholic's opinion" and I certainly do quote you in that context. But I would not put your quote at the level of "The Faith Explained". That just would not be realistic

Having said that -- you have free will and can reject the encyclical by Pope John Paul II, and the Catechism quotes I keep posting and the "Faith Explained" - I never say you can't do that.

I'm putting all Catholic opinion in one basket so that you can see the difference between Catholic Opinion and Catholic Teaching.

You are free to do as you wish... you have free will.

 

[Open Heart]

an RCC document that is lauded as the "standard reference for every Catholic home and university"

But it's not.

 

[Open Heart]

That is a false accusation refuted already many times.

I think we can both see that by now.

Oh, puhleeze. Your presumption is boundless.

 

[BobRyan]

But we've gone around and around on this so many times that I don't bother with it anymore. When you do your thing of bringing it back up again ad nauseum, I just basically make a remark like, "I've already answered this."

It's the topic of the thread as noted in the OP -- your opposition to those RCC quotes are fine with me - but I find them "instructive" for people interested in this topic. As well as irrefutable examples of documented Catholic statements.

You are misusing the quotes, and employing a strategy that makes no sense.

That is a false accusation refuted already many times.

I think we can both see that by now.

You could care less about Catholic Teaching. In Fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you had extremely negative (and misinformed) ideas about the Catholic Church.

Also not true.

Clearly, CLEARLY, in the area of general believers keeping a Saturday Sabbath, the Catholic Church does NOT back you up.

If you think you are refuting something I said - then please show all of us in an actual quote from me that I claimed that the Catholic Church thinks people should keep Sabbath on Saturday.

Will be waiting for one of your accusations to have something like evidence brought by you to show you are not simply making stuff up in your list of unsupported accusations so far.

When you accept the Catechism's teaching on the Sacraments, i.e., then and only then will it make sense for you to use the Catechism as a source .

That is nonsense and we both know it.

You are finding it "inconvenient" that some of the points in my argument where you would prefer to object - are the very points your own Catechism makes. And we both know it.

Oh, puhleeze. .

I find your logic "irrefutable" just then ..