Why the Catholic Church changes the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday

[Open Heart]

No Bible text says "Passover is once a week".
No bible text says "Passover is always on week-day-1"

And we both know it.

On the week of the crucifixion - Passover was not on week-day-1

You completely misunderstood what I said.

 

[Open Heart]

No text in all of scripture says "week day 1 is the Lord's Day" and we both know it.

No text in Scripture says "week day 7 is not the Lord's Day" but we know it's not because the writings of first century Christians tell us so.

 

[Open Heart]

Adam was not circumcised but did receive the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3

Adam was never commanded to rest on the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Adam was never commanded to rest on the Sabbath.

Until you read the actual Bible where we find that the Sabbath is set apart and made a holy day in Genesis 2:3 on Adam's first full day of life.

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Which as God reminds us in the TEN Commandments -- is the ONLY reason we even have Sabbath.
Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Bible details matter - man-made-tradition does not Mark 7:6-13

 

[BobRyan]

No text in Scripture says "week day 7 is not the Lord's Day"

True.

Was I supposed to object to that point???

In fact your own church says that the 7th day WAS the Lord's Day as God gave it in the Bible. (As we all saw on page one of this very thread)

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

 

[Open Heart]

In fact your own church says that the 7th day WAS the Lord's Day as God gave it in the Bible. (As we all saw on page one of this very thread)

No, the Church NEVER said that the 7th day was the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day was always the first day, the day Christ arose.

The Baltimore Catechism is unwise in its use of "the Lord's day" to describe the Sabbath in the OT. No where in the OT is "the Lord's day" used to describe the Sabbath. The first time "the Lord's Day" is used, is in the NT church, and it is used to describe the first day of the week, because it is on this day that Christ arose.

Sometimes, although the Catechisms teach right doctrine, such as the change of solemnity from the seventh day to the first day, they may not choose the best wording to convey these truths.

 

[Open Heart]

Until you read the actual Bible where we find that the Sabbath is set apart and made a holy day in Genesis 2:3 on Adam's first full day of life.

Just because the Sabbath is set apart, doesn't mean that mankind was commanded to rest upon it.

 

[BobRyan]

Just because the Sabbath is set apart, doesn't mean that mankind was commanded to rest upon it.

Sanctified - made holy - made a holy day.

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. (NIV)

3 God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, for on it He rested from His work of creation. (HCSB)

Which as God reminds us in the TEN Commandments -- is the ONLY reason we even have Sabbath.
Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Ex 20;11 11 For the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything in them in six days; then He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and declared it holy. (HCSB(

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. NIV

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (NASB)

 

[BobRyan]

No text in Scripture says "week day 7 is not the Lord's Day"

True.

Was I supposed to object to that point???

In fact your own church says that the 7th day WAS the Lord's Day as God gave it in the Bible. (As we all saw on page one of this very thread)

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

No, the Church NEVER said that the 7th day was the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day was always the first day,

You have free will and you are of course welcomed to your own preferences...

But I for one am more inclined to quote some RCC author like the one above - who writes the standard commentary for the Baltimore Catechism ... then just to find someone on CF who offers their own opinion... when I talk about what is taught in the Catholic Church.

Even your own Pope John Paul II argued for all TEN of the TEN commandments specifically the Sabbath commandment as included in moral law of God written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant.

That is "my" preference.

 

[BobRyan]

ibe the Sabbath in the OT. No where in the OT is "the Lord's day" used to describe the Sabbath. .

Possibly they are not the poor Bible students you appear to make of them?

Isiah 58:13
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:KJV

13 “If you keep from desecrating the Sabbath,
from doing whatever you want on My holy day;
if you call the Sabbath a delight,
and the holy day of the Lord honorable;
if you honor it, not going your own ways,


13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

 

[Open Heart]

Possibly they are not the poor Bible students you appear to make of them?

We've been through this before, and your posts are tiresome. "A holy day of the Lord" et al, is not the same thing as "The Lord's Day." The Lord's Day is a specific title.

 

[Open Heart]

Sanctified - made holy - made a holy day.

Sure. It was made holy. But no where was Adam commanded to keep it holy by resting upon it.

 

[BobRyan]

Sure. It was made holy. But no where was Adam commanded to keep it holy by resting upon it.

There is not one single example of such a thing in all of scripture - even your own RCC claims it is for mankind and was for mankind even in the OT.

And we both know it.

 

[BobRyan]

We've been through this before, and your posts are tiresome. "A holy day of the Lord" et al, is not the same thing as "The Lord's Day." The Lord's Day is a specific title.

It is your own RCC commentary on the Catechism that declares your speculation to be incorrect. It says that the Sabbath was the Lord's Day in the OT text.

And for "good reason" at that --

Isiah 58:13
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:KJV

13 “If you keep from desecrating the Sabbath,
from doing whatever you want on My holy day;
if you call the Sabbath a delight,
and the holy day of the Lord honorable;
if you honor it, not going your own ways,


13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,


Were we simply "not supposed to notice" since you are "tired"??

the point remains

 

[Open Heart]

It is your own RCC commentary on the Catechism that declares your speculation to be incorrect. It says that the Sabbath was the Lord's Day in the OT text.

An unfortunate wording in a commentary (and who cares about a commentary?) changes nothing.

 

[Open Heart]

There is not one single example of such a thing in all of scripture - even your own RCC claims it is for mankind and was for mankind even in the OT.

And we both know it.

The Catholic Church does NOT claim that Adam was required to observe the Shabbat.

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church does NOT claim that Adam was required to observe the Shabbat.

The Catholic church claims the Sabbath is for mankind and that the TEN Commandments are the moral law of God given for mankind and not simply limited to a cultic scope (a Jewish scope)... and we both know it.

======================= As we saw on page one ============

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

 

[Open Heart]

The Catholic church claims the Sabbath is for mankind and that the TEN Commandments are the moral law of God given for mankind and not simply limited to a cultic scope (a Jewish scope)... and we both know it.

The Catholic Church does not claim that anyone is required to observe a Saturday Sabbath, nor does it claim that Adam was required to observe a seventh day Sabbath. You know this.

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church does not claim that anyone is required to observe a Saturday Sabbath

Does the Catholic Church claim that there is someone on the planet that is required to observe the Sabbath that is found in the TEN Commandments??

hmmm -- Let's see

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church


===================================
2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
====================================

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

==============================

OH - you appear to be saying that while the RCC demands obedience to the Sabbath Commandment - as given in the actual Bible - it now transfers it to "week day 1" so that keeping week-day-1 as your day of worship - fulfills the Sabbath Commandment that is found in the TEN Commandments ...

Which is MY point in the title of the thread - and page 1 in general.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

 

[Open Heart]

Does the Catholic Church claim that there is someone on the planet that is required to observe the Sabbath that is found in the TEN Commandments??

You are not replying to my remark, so I shall reiterate. The Catholic Church does not teach that anyone need observe a seventh day Sabbath. Nor does it teach that Adam was commanded to observe the Sabbath.