Why the Catholic Church changes the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday

[BobRyan]

Catholic answers - address this question

"Seventh-day Adventists insist that the Catholic Church has no scriptural warrant for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Is this true?"
http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...im-that-the-sabbath-shouldnt-have-been-change

Catholic Answers sets the record straight?

"While it is true that there is no New Testament record of a voice from the heavens instructing the infant Church, "Thou shalt change the day of thy worship and rest from Saturday to Sunday," Adventists are mistaken in their belief that there is no New Testament evidence that supports such a change by the Catholic Church. Quite apart from the biblical proof of the apostolic Church’s authority to teach in God’s name (Mt 16:18–19, 18:17–18, Lk 10:16) and of God’s guarantee that this teaching would never fall into error (Mt 28:19–20, Lk 22:32, Jn 16:13), there is an impressive amount of evidence from Scripture that Christ and the apostles changed their day of corporate worship from Saturday to Sunday."

(that quote was also from the same link as posted above)

So the basic argument is that while there is no actual Bible text calling week-day-1 Sabbath, or the Lord's Day - or stating that Sabbath was abolished and weekly week-day-1 worship services took it's place -- still there is some hope of finding a hint that maybe weekly week-day-1 worship services happened at all even if nothing to say they replace Sabbath. The search is on at that site to find such evidence!

The fact that they did claim to make such a change is not only supported by the "Catholic Answers" article - but also discussed on this thread starting here --
Apr 8, 2015 #1

With proof posted many places on that other thread -- including
Oct 3, 2015 #387

 

[BobRyan]

And of course in building their case for a change of Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday - they start with this

The Old Testament Sabbath commandment contains two elements. The primary element, and the one that binds Christians as it does Jews, is the moral obligation to set aside adequate time for the purpose of divine worship. This could never be abrogated, as it is rooted in the natural law.

The secondary element was ceremonial and therefore could be abolished—and was abolished by Jesus’ death on the cross (Col 2:12–17). This secondary, ceremonial element was that the particular day chosen to meet the moral obligation of the law was Saturday, so that the Jews would remember and memorialize the creation of the earth.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...im-that-the-sabbath-shouldnt-have-been-change

The tradition stated above seeks to divide the 4th Commandment into two pieces. One that remains binding - a moral law - on all mankind. Third rail sort of -- danger! danger! do not tamper - material- moral law binding on all mankind

And the second aspect/division -- "is merely ceremonial" that is to say - the actual DAYthat God states in His Law - is up for grabs and can be edited/changed to whatever day tradition deems best.


Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 16
23 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is the Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord.

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Rev 14:7 "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water"

That act of God is selecting IT - and blessing IT -- and demanding that we remember IT - the seventh day - turns out ... according to man's tradition --- to be the most editable, the most up-for-grabs-changeable aspect of God's unchangeable LAW.

 

[BobRyan]

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================



In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/QUOTE]


Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

 

[Gary the Kid]

2 claiming to be God.............The first God chose the Last Day............The lesser god chooses the First Day.......
Keep it Simple..........Has nothing to do with the Catholic Church............There at 2....... They are different.........
I hope you don't cherry pick from Catholic Beliefs..........Of course we do......... PS: by claiming the names of Dead Creation to prove your point means, you don't play with demons............Nor do you understand them..........Dead Creation......come now.............means nothing...........gone.........gone............gone. This aint no game........

 

[Bob S]

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================



In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??[/QUOTE]
it is funny that you would trust anything the Catholic Church ever espoused since they represent to your church the beast church and are Babylon. The fact is, and has been explained over and over to SDAs,,that the early church as far back as the first century started to stray away from the Israelite only Sabbath and used the first day to come together for worship. The church had been worshiping on the first day centuries before Constantine and his edict.

As to your "key question" I would suggest you take that up with Paul. Study 2Cor 3:7-11. There you will find that the 10 are no longer the guide. The Holy Spirit, (you know, the gift Jesus promised to His followers) is now our guide.

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is, and has been explained over and over to SDAs,,that the early church as far back as the first century started to stray away from the Israelite only Sabbath and used the first day to come together for worship.

But not according to the "actual bible" so then you quote...?? -- well "not the Bible" to make your point.

Hence the Catholic Church is having a field day -- on the very point where you find no Bible text in support of your claim.

So now you ask why I happen to like the fact that they amplify the gap in your own suggestion by their statement on the subject?

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

I should think that my reason for wanting to highlight that gap is obvious to all readers on both sides of the debate.

This was the easy part.

 

[Bob S]

But not according to the "actual bible" so then you quote...?? -- well "not the Bible" to make your point.

Hence the Catholic Church is having a field day -- on the very point where you find no Bible text in support of your claim.

So now you ask why I happen to like the fact that they amplify the gap in your own suggestion by their statement on the subject?

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

I should think that my reason for wanting to highlight that gap is obvious to all readers on both sides of the debate.

This was the easy part.

Again, why would you use writings from the ones you disdain? Who cares what they say, the fact is that we have documented proof from the writers of the early church that the newly formed Christian believers came together on the first day of the week. This was long before the pope and his followers.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, why would you use writings from the ones you disdain? .

I am always pleased to see that some Bible teachings are so blatantly obvious that even the guys on the other side -- see the point and admit to it.

Objectivity -- what a concept.

And "of course" this thread title is about the Catholic church changing the Sabbath commandment -- so what better affirming point than to have them admit it.

Objectivity -- what a concept.

 

[BobRyan]

As for the SABBATH commandment applicable to mankind - since Eden - even D.L. Moody could clearly see that Bible detail.

 

[Bob S]

I am always pleased to see that some Bible teachings are so blatantly obvious that even the guys on the other side -- see the point and admit to it.

Objectivity -- what a concept.

And "of course" this thread title is about the Catholic church changing the Sabbath commandment -- so what better affirming point than to have them admit it.

Objectivity -- what a concept.

If the Catholic agrees with your preconceived ideas you are more than glad to accept their historical "facts". Actually, since Christians were already using Sunday as their day of assembly any decree by the church was redundant. SDAs have to make the Catholic church responsible in order to keep their prophet propped up, anything to save her face and make that church the beast power of Revelation.

Another thing, Ellen White was completely wrong about who is the beast power. It is much more likely it is Islamic terrorism. Many SDAs are questioning the prophet's writings.

 

[BobRyan]

If the Catholic agrees with your preconceived ideas you are more than glad to accept their historical "facts".

The fact that the history to which the Catholic Church admits in some of their documents is exactly the history that I claim they admit to -- is not a matter of Catholic historians watching for whatever BobRyan says so they can quickly agree to it. As we all know.

The fact that they put the challenge out there - saying that not one Bible text endorses changing the Lord's Day from God's Bible Sabbath to the Catholic Church's week-day-1 is pretty obvious for everyone to read.

The way to "challenge" it is not to come up with a bunch of fluff about your "wish" that I not be correct on this point. Rather the way to challenge it - is to "address the salient point" in their argument. Ranting against me as your "solution" is mere fluff.

Actually, since Christians were already using Sunday as their day of assembly any decree by the church was redundant.

Again your solution is merely to "quote you" and not the Bible for the salient point in your speculation about what the first century church was doing. That is not compelling at all.


No amount of ranting will substitute for Bible fact.

 

[Bob S]

I just read from http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

The history of the early Christian's activity proves that the church started using the first day. Constantine, as I previously wrote put his redundant stamp on what had already taken place for many years. Again, you are committed to hold the thoughts of your prophet above what is written in history. Ellen White was a poor historian, why would you want to put your eggs in her basket. I know your church has all their eggs in he basket and their true colors are well known by Christian scholars including your own Samuel Bacchicchi.

 

[BobRyan]

No amount of ranting will substitute for Bible fact.

I just read from http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

The history of the early Christian's activity proves that the church started using the first day.

So that is your "substitute" for a Bible text supporting your speculation?

I just read from Malachi 3" "I the LORD your God do not change"
and from Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

And from Eph 6:2 that the unit of Ten - in which the 5th commandment is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" -- is still binding on all mankind. A Bible detail so obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship agree -- such as Spurgeon, Moody, R.C. Sproul, Stanley, the "Westminster Confession of Faith", the "Baptist Confession of Faith", Matthew Henry... et al "get that point".

Constantine, as I previously wrote put his redundant stamp...

And then I read from Mark 7:6-13 -- showing how "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - HAMMERS the traditions of man that seek to edit/alter/change the LAW of God.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

======================

Of course a few Catholics in the General theology section of this board object to the "Sola Scriptura" doctrine as I have quoted it from Mark 7:6-13, and Acts 17:11 testing all tradition and doctrine... but there we simply "agree to differ" -- you may choose tradition over the Bible in that case. But I do not.

hence your "speculative" web site said "The 10 commandment law including the requirement to keep the Sabbath day were abolished at the cross" http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

-- and by contrast the Word of God said "Do we then abolish the LAW of God by our Faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

Yet "another" opportunity to hammer the flaws traditions and doctrines of men via the WORD of God - "sola scriptura".

Thus even the Catholic Church is not entirely wrong when it says "nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

I just read from http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

The history of the early Christian's activity proves that the church started using the first day. Constantine, as I previously wrote put his redundant stamp on what had already taken place for many years. Again, you are committed to hold the thoughts of your prophet above what is written in history. Ellen White was a poor historian, why would you want to put your eggs in her basket. I know your church has all their eggs in he basket and their true colors are well known by Christian scholars including your own Samuel Bacchicchi.

This is not so, you read the writing of Justin Mytre (2nd century) it is the earliest document which describes christian worship.

It says the christian kept the 7th day sabbath and on the 1st day the Lords day they would come together to take the Lords supper.

 

[BobRyan]

​

Catholic Ten Commandments

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10.You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

Is it your claim that "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" is the SAME thing as "Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day" -- or is it your claim that Catholics CHANGED that commandment to say something else?

 

[Bob S]

This is not so, you read the writing of Justin Mytre (2nd century) it is the earliest document which describes christian worship.

You write as if you are schooled in ancient theology. What are your credentials? I am but a layman who looks at what the scholars have written. It seems like you may be wrong. The following is but one document I found that refutes your stand. Where do we go from here?

The Didache also speaks of worship on the Lord's day, a reference to Sunday (Didache 14:1). Ignatius of Antioch (cir 112-120 AD) also speaks of worship on Sunday AND reveals this anti-Jewish sentiment:
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death - whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith....Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness...Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven....It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity..." Ignatius - To the Magnesians 9-10

 

[Bob S]

So that is your "substitute" for a Bible text supporting your speculation?

I just read from Malachi 3" "I the LORD your God do not change"
and from Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

And from Eph 6:2 that the unit of Ten - in which the 5th commandment is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" -- is still binding on all mankind. A Bible detail so obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship agree -- such as Spurgeon, Moody, R.C. Sproul, Stanley, the "Westminster Confession of Faith", the "Baptist Confession of Faith", Matthew Henry... et al "get that point".




And then I read from Mark 7:6-13 -- showing how "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition - HAMMERS the traditions of man that seek to edit/alter/change the LAW of God.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

======================

Of course a few Catholics in the General theology section of this board object to the "Sola Scriptura" doctrine as I have quoted it from Mark 7:6-13, and Acts 17:11 testing all tradition and doctrine... but there we simply "agree to differ" -- you may choose tradition over the Bible in that case. But I do not.

hence your "speculative" web site said "The 10 commandment law including the requirement to keep the Sabbath day were abolished at the cross" http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

-- and by contrast the Word of God said "Do we then abolish the LAW of God by our Faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

Yet "another" opportunity to hammer the flaws traditions and doctrines of men via the WORD of God - "sola scriptura".

Thus even the Catholic Church is not entirely wrong when it says "nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

You have quoted from the Bible that God does not change. What do you mean by that? What was your reason for quoting that verse?

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

I don't understand why the christians would move the sabbath to the Lords day.

But look at this I found
Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

 

[Bob S]

I don't understand why the christians would move the sabbath to the Lords day.

But look at this I found
Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Great verse, one of many that refute observing the old covenant, for the Israelites only, Sabbath.

Actually, it was man's idea to worship on Sunday. The early church could have picked any day to assemble. The only requirement is to not forsake assembling ourselves together. John chose the Lord's day, the day Jesus arose from the tomb. John was Jesus disciple, I will follow John over all the Sabbath thumpers.

We need to pray together, sing together, praise God and hear the WORD together. Some have tried to mimic the Jewish Sabbath, but there is nothing in the New Testament that would indicate doing this. Oh, some say, Jesus did it, so we should too. Well, Jesus kept the feast days and did all the things required by the Torah, do they? I find there reasoning to be false and deceiving.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I don't understand why the christians would move the sabbath to the Lords day.

But look at this I found
Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

This is the verse that most Sabbath promoters refuse to acknowledge for what it is. If you really study hard into what EXACTLY is the Sabbath Day and what IS required of those who are bound to keep it (and what is NOT required) you will find that few who promote the Sabbath don't keep it properly at all, and a few who promote another day as their Sabbath often don't even come close to even mimicking a proper Sabbath day observation. Often here the argument made is of worshiping on the Sabbath by promoters and it is a red herring because there is NO requirement to worship on the Sabbath, in fact some of the requirements in keeping the proper Sabbath make it difficult for those who wish to gather and worship on that day and often these Sabbath promoters break the rules laid down in the OT for keeping them to join with others worshiping together.