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Why should I believe?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by XChristian, Oct 16, 2008.

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  1. peaceful soul

    peaceful soul Senior Veteran

    +151
    Non-Denom
    originally posted by Garyzenuf

    Just having the gifts does not guarantee anything, but without them, it is impossible. People have personal wills that inhibit them from ascertaining truth of God. Just as people in this thread don't believe in certain Biblical things, what is it that make you not believe? Depending upon your answer, then it is logically follows that there is something that keeps you from believing; thus, we see there is the problem. Humans are finite and are spiritually inept. We are more interested in self preservation than we are in obeying and listening to God. That is why we are more confident that our personal philosophies of this world are more likely to be truth and not the other things that are outside of our control and/or comprehension. It is far easier to trust ourselves than a being that claims to have created us and knows what is best for us.

    I didn't say that. You did. I am dealing with the state: not the cause of that state. At least you recognize that we are flawed, but as I have said, that is no excuse to being able to discern. We have tools that God gave us that can assist us in understanding and realizing our flaws and dealing with then while still being able to be obedient. The Holy Spirit helps us to become obedient once we come to realize our sins are the problem and that we need Christ for our redemption from the consequences of those sins. If one is not moving towards Christ, then one shouldn't expect to understand these things very well or at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  2. peaceful soul

    peaceful soul Senior Veteran

    +151
    Non-Denom
    originally posted by PassionFruit



    That is why I asked what could substitute than laguage. Remember whatever means that is used is subject to fail since the recptor is flawed. The problem is not God, but the flawed individual.



    You are not understanding that the receptor is the one that is flawed. Is there any way to make a flawed individual capable of perfect understanding? Can you make dirty water pure? The answer is no since no matter what method you use to purify the water, it will always contain some number of particles that will render it impure. You could argue that some methods of purification will produce better results than others. That is basically what I see in how God does things. I believe that regardless of what we think, God's ways are better because He sees past, present, and future all in real time. He knows what will work to the greatest good for everyone.

    If God uses a common language, that will not put a dent into the problem since we still have the very same issues--flawed beings trying to interpret what God is saying via a language. Until the people are given perfect understand, they we can't expect to interpret perfectly.



    Christians rightfully use that assertion because it is revealed to us in that way. It is not just intellectual; for it is spiritual too.

    Firstly, God is not anthromorphic. God is Spirit and manifested himself in flesh. God is still Spirit although He could reveal Himself in other forms. Anthromorphism suggests that Christians gave human attributes to God; but it is the other way around. God gave attributes to us that are in some ways parallel with some of his attributes. God made man in his own image.

    Why is God portrayed like this? Because He is wise to do so, from studying the Bible and seening Him in working in my life. He is indeed wise in how He does things. He doesn't need our finite understanding and experience to tell him how he should get things done. Our knowledge can only take us so far when dealing with God's ways. At some point, we have to exercise trust based upon what He has already revealed, which gives us confidence that He will do what is best for us and leave it at that. Humans alway want to control the orbit by which God can work. That is a big mistake. God's ways are not our ways.

    Faith is certainly a very large component. His revealed words, both written and spiritually discerned, form the foundation of why we should have faith. God gives us enough reason to trust him. His consistency in carrying out his word is a key sign that we should continue to trust Him beyond our knowledge and intellect.
     
  3. Garyzenuf

    Garyzenuf Socialism is lovely.

    +83
    Agnostic
    In Relationship
    CA-NDP
    There is no evidence of which you speak, I don't see myself as having a problem, the truth leans hard away from a creator. If he gave me sense enough to come to that decision, why would I listen to "finite and spiritaully inept humans" on the matter?

    I agree with you here, I find it easier to believe in things that are backed up by God given common sense.

    You certainly implied at the start of your paragraph that humans were flawed from the outset, thats what you said, not me.

    Negative, you think we're flawed, I think we're doing just ducky.

    Look, my bottom line was and is, if God gave us brains and they point away from a loving creator, how is it our fault he didn't give us the proper tools for "discernment" at the get go.
     
  4. PassionFruit

    PassionFruit I woke up like dis

    +276
    Humanist
    Engaged
    US-Democrat
    When you say God created man in his own image, that sounds like a God with emotions. Why do you refer to God as "He?" Is it offensive to refer to God as a "She?" Because I know alot of Christians are offended at this, why does God have a gender? That also doesn't make sense to me.

    How do you know what God's ways are? If God has "ways" in the first place?
     
  5. XChristian

    XChristian Junior Member

    89
    +4
    Agnostic
    Single
    I've never met someone who was "perfect" so are humans flawed? Sure. A common language would be nice but we still have language, yes? These arguments are dancing around the question I posed. God is supposedly capable of communicating with prophets so God is capable of communicating with me, yes? All God has to do is tell me what to do/believe and problem solved but even after I've prayed for guidance...nothing. I am still asking questions and looking for answers and...nothing. So WHY should I believe?
     
  6. Arthra

    Arthra Baha'i

    +547
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    Ex Christian

    I think God communicates to us through His Prophets and Messengers and this method of communication from God to man has been going on a long time.. for thousands of years.

    Looking back over the millenia there has always been Figure that has been like an intermediary between man and God.. God chooses a human being physically like you and me so we can identify with them and hear the message..

    Certainly God can communicate to you through prayer and meditation but trust me you would not want the office of a Prophet... Study the Bible , the Qur'an , the earlier Holy Books and you'll see that the Prophet is always having to sacrifice what they consider most dear to humans...namely security, wealth and pleasure...

    All the Prophets of God have sacrificed so the Message needed by humanity can be delivered.. but to see this I think you'll have to study Their lives and Missions and also pray and meditate on what you study... If you are sincerely seeking the message will be clearer to you in time.

    - Art:wave:
     
  7. XChristian

    XChristian Junior Member

    89
    +4
    Agnostic
    Single
    Arthra,
    What should I study? Dianetics? The book of Mormon? The most holy texts of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? I'm not interested in playing games. WHY should I believe? I have no good reason whatsoever to believe ANY religous text to be inspired by a God when I do not even know a God to exist in the first place. I REFUSE to believe in something without verifiable proof of some kind. If God or whatever supernatural powers that be want my obedience and reverence they will need to prove to me they exist first. I do not want to be a prophet I just want to know if something supernatural/spiritual exists. I do not think what I am asking for is unreasonable. Do you?
     
  8. Arthra

    Arthra Baha'i

    +547
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    XChristian wrote:

    What should I study? Dianetics? The book of Mormon? The most holy texts of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    I'd suggest the great Holy Books I mentioned above...and if you're up to it the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad Gita, the Gathas, The Bible (Since you were a Christian you could start there with maybe a more unbiased approach), the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings... but most great Holy Books that have been around and inspired humanity.

    I'm not interested in playing games.

    I'm not into games myself but if you go for flying spegheti maybe you want to play around some.

    WHY should I believe? I have no good reason whatsoever to believe ANY religous text to be inspired by a God when I do not even know a God to exist in the first place.

    You have to start somewhere..Why not with the record we have of God's interaction with humanity?


    I REFUSE to believe in something without verifiable proof of some kind. If God or whatever supernatural powers that be want my obedience and reverence they will need to prove to me they exist first.

    You might be into solipsism...

    Solipsism (Latin: solus, alone + ipse, self) is the philosophical idea that "My mind is the only thing that I know exists."

    You will need to break through the shell of self in order to grow beyond it.. God doesn't really need your obedience anyway.

    I do not want to be a prophet I just want to know if something supernatural/spiritual exists. I do not think what I am asking for is unreasonable. Do you?

    Not really but you'll need to seek for the answers yourself. No one can do that for you!

    -Art:thumbsup:
     
  9. XChristian

    XChristian Junior Member

    89
    +4
    Agnostic
    Single
    "No one can do that for you!" I disagree. If God/s exist and they want me to worship them, be a part of their religion or whatever they can speak up. I could study religions the rest of my life but in the end all I'll know about is a bunch about different religions that deny each other and not the truth. Humans are flawed, Humans are deceitful, Humans believe and atest to all sorts of crazy things. I want confirmation from the source or some verifiable proof of the supernatural/spiritual. Otherwise its just old stories that may or may NOT be true. I'm willing to believe if there IS IN FACT something to believe in.
     
  10. Arthra

    Arthra Baha'i

    +547
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    You seem to think that by studying religions "all I'll know about is a bunch about different relkigions that deny each other and not the truth." I strongly disagree with that... and I'm not simply asking you to get a degree in religious studies either. What I'm asking you to do is to be open enough to read say the Bible or the Holy Books I cited above with an open mind.

    The core values of the major religions are not contradictory. If you explore them in an unbiased way you will find more in common than is say on the surface of maybe cultural or doctrinal distinctions made by men!

    You seem to be pessimistic without really having your facts straight... and I'm not blaming you just saying that before you think you know all the answers at least seek for them first.

    - Art
     
  11. XChristian

    XChristian Junior Member

    89
    +4
    Agnostic
    Single
    Arthra,
    Impatient? Yes. Realistic? Yes. Pessimistic? Not really. The way I see it is if the power/s that be don't give me guidance I must not need it or they don't exist. I have never seen, heard or experienced anything that would lead me to believe a God/s exist. Noone can give me proof or even a good reason to believe in God/s. I will have to continue relying on logic and reason then.
     
  12. Arthra

    Arthra Baha'i

    +547
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    "Noone can give me proof or even a good reason to believe in God/s"

    See this is your "credo" and you repeat it to yourself .. but if you don't make some effort yourself I doubt very much you will find the truth..

    Somehow or other you need I think to find a transcendence of this "self".

    -Art:wave:
     
  13. SiderealExalt

    SiderealExalt Well-Known Member

    +143
    Atheist
    Private
    Nothing you just said has any real connection to a tangible, real idea of fact in any sense of the word.
    Nothing he said makes me think that this is grounded in being selfish.
     
  14. VoidKommando

    VoidKommando Newbie

    57
    +2
    Other Religion
    Private
    The way I see it is:
    There is no real reason to believe in God, other than support. Some people use good luck charms, some people meditate, some people take a walk outside, others pray to their God, but it all comes down to the same thing: Finding comfort and your balance.
     
  15. TheKingOfImmortality

    TheKingOfImmortality Senior Member

    560
    +32
    Buddhist
    Single

    I have bin asking myself the same thing latly but....

    Frist of all, you dont have to belive in anything. Seconed. I know what your talking about. I ask my self the same qustions. Is this really a good idea to put your faith in these old writings? I would be lieing if I told you that I complety solved my own problems and that I dont have my doudts but I decided to hang on for a differnt reason. I choses to keep exploring world religon becasue in my case, it helps me. It gives me my own moral code to live by and help me think of others first. I admit, that dose not prove any diety or anything of that nature but in the long run does it really matter? Does it really matter if one religon is right or none at all? As long as what you belives is harmless and if it helps them threw life I will leave them alone. As for you, just find the way to best live your life. Yes, you may not need religon but for some people it is helpful for them.
     
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