Why seek "God"?

[FireDragon76]

It seems you are referring to Tibetan dogmas, which I do not practice.

Early Buddhism teaches rebirth, not reincarnation. I know rebirth for myself, and can observe it in action, in the here-and-now.

That's semantics.

BTW, Tibetan Buddhism is based off early Buddhism and contains the same foundational doctrines, including about rebirth. I've studied Buddhism many years ago and I even practiced it.

 

[FireDragon76]

How can you observe rebirth in action? Do you know what your past lives were, or something? Or is this just a clever way to get past the fact that real Buddhists believe in something that is not entirely logically coherent?

 

[ananda]

That's semantics.

BTW, Tibetan Buddhism is based off early Buddhism and contains the same foundational doctrines, including about rebirth. I've studied Buddhism many years ago and I even practiced it.

There are major differences, in my opinion.

Reincarnation implies transmigration of an eternal soul between bodies. This I cannot observe nor verify.

Rebirth, as I understand it, is the idea that we are constantly changing, and this is immediately observable. Our 30-year-old physical selves are neither different nor the same as our 7-year-old physical selves, but they are instead connected through a chain of ongoing rebirth.

The same form of change and rebirth is happening in our emotional and mental spheres/"bodies".

 

[ananda]

How can you observe rebirth in action? Do you know what your past lives were, or something? Or is this just a clever way to get past the fact that real Buddhists believe in something that is not entirely logically coherent?

See post #83.

I can only say what is "real" (and verifiable) to me, according to my own experience.

 

[FireDragon76]

There are major differences, in my opinion.

Reincarnation implies transmigration of an eternal soul between bodies. This I cannot observe nor verify.

Well, Tibetans do not believe in that. Williams goes over what they do believe in his book, and it's identical to what Theravadan Buddhists believe. There is no soul, only karma. Which means nothing really goes between lives. So why talk about rebirth at all then, if nothing is really reborn?

Rebirth, as I understand it, is the idea that we are constantly changing, and this is immediately observable. Our 30-year-old physical selves are neither different nor the same as our 7-year-old physical selves, but they are instead connected through a chain of ongoing rebirth.

But there is a physical continuity going on that is demonstrable. There is no such connection with the doctrine of rebirth. It's based on pure faith in what gurus say. That people find a measure of comfort in such a doctrine says alot of about priestcraft and mythmaking.

 

[Silmarien]

The difference being, IMO rebirth and samsara can be known in the here-and-now by the ordinary person, but not so with the heavens and hells.

Rebirth in the sense you're talking about shows up in Christianity too, so it's hardly just a Buddhist thing.

What do you find bleak about the Buddhist outlook? I find it realistic, grounded in reality that can be known in the here-and-now, without speculations involved.

I find the focus on detachment ultimately dehumanizing.

 

[ananda]

Well, Tibetans do not believe in that. Williams goes over what they do believe in his book, and it's identical to what Theravadan Buddhists believe. There is no soul, only karma. Which means nothing really goes between lives. So why talk about rebirth at all then, if nothing is really reborn?

To my understanding, early Buddhists neither speculates on the existence of soul/self, nor its non-existence. E.g.:

"he attends inappropriately in this way ... The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self" (MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta).

But there is a physical continuity going on that is demonstrable. There is no such connection with the doctrine of rebirth. It's based on pure faith in what gurus say.

Rebirth is that process of continuity.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Aha! Ultimately, you are seeking peace, no? And you believe that peace comes from God?


You're welcome

No, ultimately I am seeking God. Peace comes, along with many other things, as a side benefit.

If I were seeking peace, that to my mind would be a selfish goal? (I'm not saying anyone is being selfish - peace is a good thing. )

It is rather personal to me, but I have had an awareness of Him, though I didn't know who or what exactly I was aware of, since I was a small child. So I really was drawn by that relationship.

But peace comes as a result.

 

[Robban]

There are major differences, in my opinion.

Reincarnation implies transmigration of an eternal soul between bodies. This I cannot observe nor verify.

Rebirth, as I understand it, is the idea that we are constantly changing, and this is immediately observable. Our 30-year-old physical selves are neither different nor the same as our 7-year-old physical selves, but they are instead connected through a chain of ongoing rebirth.

The same form of change and rebirth is happening in our emotional and mental spheres/"bodies".

If I put a cake mix in an oven, and take it out 30 min later,

Is it a cake mix reborn, or is it a cake?

 

[ananda]

Rebirth in the sense you're talking about shows up in Christianity too, so it's hardly just a Buddhist thing.

I find the focus on detachment ultimately dehumanizing.

I find it liberating and blissful, in my experience

 

[FireDragon76]

Rebirth is that process of continuity.

No, it's a continuity that ends at the grave.

I find it liberating and blissful, in my experience

Heroin addicts say the same things, you know.

 

[ananda]

If I put a cake mix in an oven, and take it out 30 min later,

Is it a cake mix reborn, or is it a cake?

It is neither different nor the same as what it was in the past.

 

[ananda]

No, it's a continuity that ends at the grave. Heroin addicts say the same things, you know.

Ultimately, it is irrelevant whether it ends at the grave or not; that would be speculation. What matters is knowledge and experience of dukkha in the here and now.

We can speculate on any number of an infinite number of theories until we exhaust our lifespan, without having come to knowledge.

 

[ananda]

No, ultimately I am seeking God. Peace comes, along with many other things, as a side benefit.

If I were seeking peace, that to my mind would be a selfish goal? (I'm not saying anyone is being selfish - peace is a good thing. )

It is rather personal to me, but I have had an awareness of Him, though I didn't know who or what exactly I was aware of, since I was a small child. So I really was drawn by that relationship.

But peace comes as a result.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are seeking peace, through your search for God. Why would anyone search for God (or really, anything else), if he or she is already completely at peace?

 

[Robban]

It is neither different nor the same as what it was in the past.

What is there to say?

 

[FireDragon76]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are seeking peace, through your search for God. Why would anyone search for God, if he or she is already completely at peace?

Maybe they cared for truth more than peace.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I can only speak for myself, but I do it because I'm currently
of the belief that He is the most beautiful, loving, wise
entity with Whom I would ever hope to have a relationship.

I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case since I've read some of the Old Testament that I'd hardly call beautiful, loving, or wise. In fact I'd call it very much the opposite.

 

[ananda]

Maybe they cared for truth more than peace.

Why do people search for truth? Is it not to bring peace through knowledge?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Maybe they cared for truth more than peace.

I may possibly have said what you quoted me as saying -somewhere - but I wanted to check the context since it sounded iffy. The post you quote doesn't have me saying that? Perhaps it was another post, or someone else's words. But I cannot reply, because that's not what I said there.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are seeking peace, through your search for God. Why would anyone search for God (or really, anything else), if he or she is already completely at peace?

Ah, this is where the quote comes from.

In answer to your question, I was drawn to seek God from an early age. Peace has been a later result.

It was the early knowledge of and experience of God that produced the desire, and that desire has turned out to be greater than any other. Peace, joy, contentment, these things come as a result of relationship with God, gifts through His grace working in us. But it was the relationship I initially wanted. I didn't know in the earliest times to even hope for or expect the rest. They were, as I said, an added bonus. In my case, it would have been wrong if I had desired peace, joy, or contentment, and simply used God as a means to get them.

I hope that makes sense.