Why seek "God"?

[afishamongmany]

We have perhaps 70-90 years on this Earth, on average. I've already spent more than a third of that seeking the Christian god, but did not gain any direct knowledge of him.

Are you claiming that I should continue to maintain faith in a system which I could not verify until the exhaustion of my years, even though there are a multitude of religious systems, competing for my attention, which hold similar claims? Would you approve of a Zoroastrian giving similar advice to another Zoroastrian disciple, that the latter should continue to hold blind faith for decades until Ahura Mazda grants him direct knowledge? How do you propose that a man should explore all of the world's faith-based religions, given his limited physical lifespan, before finding the correct one?

Ananda - be still and know that He is God. Not a system of beliefs or spiritual exercises, but a person, The Person Jesus Christ. Listen to what He says and let his words enter your heart. That is light , that is life.
'Blind faith' means believing what one does not yet see with physical sight because one trusts what the witnesses tell you. By this trusting faith the Christian, receiving The Spirit of Christ, sees and knows the reality of this here and now, the to-come and The One who initiated, sustains and governs it all. The faith through which we are saved does not come and go. It is given and by it we receive The One who will never leaves us or forsake us.
Ananda, what do I gain by writing these words to you? Why on earth should I bother? My salvation in noway depends on yours. But seeing those walking away from light and life to darkness and death the love of Christ in us urges us to call out.

To his people The Living God gave this promise -
I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity;
from Jeremiah 29
Spoken to a wayward and rebellious people two and a half thousand years ago and still spoken today to all who have ears to hear.
Go wisely
><>

 

[ananda]

Ananda - be still and know that He is God. Not a system of beliefs or spiritual exercises, but a person, The Person Jesus Christ. Listen to what He says and let his words enter your heart. That is light , that is life.
'Blind faith' means believing what one does not yet see with physical sight

How?

because one trusts what the witnesses tell you.

Who are those witnesses, and why should I believe them, and how can I verify that they are true witnesses?

By this trusting faith the Christian, receiving The Spirit of Christ, sees and knows the reality of this here and now, the to-come and The One who initiated, sustains and governs it all. The faith through which we are saved does not come and go. It is given and by it we receive The One who will never leaves us or forsake us. Ananda, what do I gain by writing these words to you? Why on earth should I bother? My salvation in noway depends on yours. But seeing those walking away from light and life to darkness and death the love of Christ in us urges us to call out.

To his people The Living God gave this promise -
I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity;
from Jeremiah 29
Spoken to a wayward and rebellious people two and a half thousand years ago and still spoken today to all who have ears to hear.
Go wisely
><>

How do you propose I can know these things for myself?

 

[ananda]

Maybe suffering/discontentment is a good thing, because it motivates people to fulfill their needs? Imagine Buddhism as an appetite suppressant. People without appetite might not eat enough to stay healthy. Maybe the purpose of life is to find something such as God? The Buddhist focuses on not feeling the need for God when he/she should be trying to find God. The times when I think that God might interact with me are often the times when I hit rock bottom psychologically and feel the greatest suffering over God's apparent absence and indifference. Sometimes it seems that God gives me a little encouragement at those times.

The Path of Buddhism is a search for the enduring ultimate, which we perceive as nibbana - the cessation of all dukkha. Our Path has intermediate steps - a progressive experience of decreasing dukkha - which can be observed by the disciple in his current lifetime. Therefore, we have reasonable grounds to conclude that there is an end state, the full cessation of dukkha.

Christianity (and other faith-based religions) is a search for an intelligent ultimate, usually imagined as "God". Can you point me to a faith-based religion which possesses such a path consisting of intermediary steps (similar to above) by which a disciple, in his current lifetime, can progressively & directly experience knowledge of this intelligent ultimate?

 

[cloudyday2]

The Path of Buddhism is a search for the enduring ultimate, which we perceive as nibbana - the cessation of all dukkha. Our Path has intermediate steps - a progressive experience of decreasing dukkha - which can be observed by the disciple in his current lifetime. Therefore, we have reasonable grounds to conclude that there is an end state, the full cessation of dukkha.

Christianity (and other faith-based religions) is a search for an intelligent ultimate, usually imagined as "God". Can you point me to a faith-based religion which possesses such a path consisting of intermediary steps (similar to above) by which a disciple, in his current lifetime, can progressively & directly experience knowledge of this intelligent ultimate?

Eastern Orthodox have the idea of theosis ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology ). Protestants have the idea of sanctification ( Sanctification - Wikipedia ). My understanding is that most Christian monasteries read passages from "The Ladder of Divine Ascent" every day during Lent ( The Ladder of Divine Ascent - Wikipedia ). The idea is to experience God by making yourself more like Jesus and so forth.

EDIT: Here is a PDF of "The Ladder of Divine Ascent". It is interesting, because there is mention of "dispassion" as a goal - similar to Buddhist ideas maybe.
http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf

 

[Noxot]

Why do people seek "God"?

Buddhism explains our search in terms of dukkha (aka suffering, discontentment, displeasure, etc.). That is, because of dukkha, we seek out god(s), saviors, prophets, psychics, doctors, politicians, love, food, money, sex, sleep, entertainment, etc.

Why not address dukkha itself, as the Lord Buddha taught, instead of seeking to treat its symptoms? Dig out the roots (of dukkha), instead of endlessly snipping its offshoots.

I don't think that bliss is the entire reason why we exist how we exist. I think suffering plays a very important role in the development of a soul and that at it's core it is just another expression of love... but some people think that deleting their soul is salvation.

i'm not looking to be made perfect as I am because I follow the path of the infinite desire in my heart going towards something that is it's kin. so I don't want to dig the roots out, I want it to fully develop and flourish into what it is.

this character preached buddhism all across the land but had secretly became a taoist. I like both and more.

 

[ananda]

Eastern Orthodox have the idea of theosis ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology ). Protestants have the idea of sanctification ( Sanctification - Wikipedia ). My understanding is that most Christian monasteries read passages from "The Ladder of Divine Ascent" every day during Lent ( The Ladder of Divine Ascent - Wikipedia ). The idea is to experience God by making yourself more like Jesus and so forth.

EDIT: Here is a PDF of "The Ladder of Divine Ascent". It is interesting, because there is mention of "dispassion" as a goal - similar to Buddhist ideas maybe.
http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf

Thanks for sharing! IMO there might be a superficial resemblance between nibbana and the reach for theosis & sanctification. I think a major difference is that we do not speculate an intelligence at the end-goal.

 

[afishamongmany]

How?
Who are those witnesses, and why should I believe them, and how can I verify that they are true witnesses?
How do you propose I can know these things for myself?

Ananda - be still and know that He is God. Not a system of beliefs or spiritual exercises, but a person, The Person Jesus Christ. Listen to what He says and let his words enter your heart. That is light , that is life.
'Blind faith' means believing what one does not yet see with physical sight

ananda -How?
afish-It is given

ananda -Who are those witnesses?
afish -The list is without end – Start with Able, jump over a multitude to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, Jude, in chapter 11 of the letter to the Hebrews 14 other witnesses besides Able are mentioned by name; then jump over another multitude to the present day and here you have this fish and the multitude of his brothers and sisters. I testify to you after 45yrs of walking with Christ that He is trustworthy and that in Him is pardon, light and life.

ananda -Why should you believe these witnesses?
afish - Because they witness to that which is true and therein is life eternal. Not to believe them is to believe a lie.

ananda - How can I verify that they are true witnesses?
afish - I suppose that will depend on what your criteria for accepting someone as trustworthy are? In the end it is God who decides who the credible witnesses are. I wonder if his criteria and ours are the same?
So who do you trust and why do you trust them?

ananda - How do you propose I can know these things for myself?
afish - Repent, believe, ask and you will know these things for yourself.

Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity;

Ananda, if there is really anything more you think I can say that would be of help to you feel free to PM me but this will be my last bat of the ball on this thread.
Go well
><>

 

[ananda]

Ananda - be still and know that He is God. Not a system of beliefs or spiritual exercises, but a person, The Person Jesus Christ. Listen to what He says and let his words enter your heart. That is light , that is life.
'Blind faith' means believing what one does not yet see with physical sight

ananda -How?
afish-It is given ...

ananda - How do you propose I can know these things for myself?
afish - Repent, believe, ask and you will know these things for yourself.

Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity;

ananda -Who are those witnesses?
afish -The list is without end – Start with Able, jump over a multitude to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, Jude, in chapter 11 of the letter to the Hebrews 14 other witnesses besides Able are mentioned by name; then jump over another multitude to the present day and here you have this fish and the multitude of his brothers and sisters. I testify to you after 45yrs of walking with Christ that He is trustworthy and that in Him is pardon, light and life.

I've done that for 30+ years, but unfortunately, I cannot say I have met "God" or "Jesus". The testimony of a witness is irrelevant, if I cannot personally verify the allegations of said witness.

ananda -Why should you believe these witnesses?
afish - Because they witness to that which is true and therein is life eternal. Not to believe them is to believe a lie.

Have you met them yourselves, and personally verified their allegations?

ananda - How can I verify that they are true witnesses?
afish - I suppose that will depend on what your criteria for accepting someone as trustworthy are? In the end it is God who decides who the credible witnesses are. I wonder if his criteria and ours are the same?

I require more than simply names and their alleged deeds in book. Otherwise, I should perhaps be inclined to believe in the amazing feats of the young wizard Harry Potter - they're written in multiple books too.

So who do you trust and why do you trust them?

I know and trust myself and my own personal experiences and observations of Reality and its Laws.

I personally know and trust certain words of the alleged Buddha and other alleged noble disciples insofar as those specific words and teachings correspond to my personal experiences and observations of Reality and its Laws.

I am currently agnostic to those words and teachings of the alleged Buddha, words of other alleged noble disciples, and words from other religious traditions, all of which I have not yet confirmed for myself. I intend to eventually put those teachings to the test through future applications of my own personal experience and observation upon Reality and its Laws.

Ananda, if there is really anything more you think I can say that would be of help to you feel free to PM me but this will be my last bat of the ball on this thread.

Go well
><>

Much metta to you.

 

[TheOldWays]

Have you met them yourselves, and personally verified their allegations?

Always a good point. Imagine a game of 'Telephone'. Where one whispers something in a person's ear, then they pass it on, and on, and on....by the time it gets back to the original person, it's not the same thing. It happens in everyday life too. A story is told, and by the time it's passed on and retold, it's greatly exaggerated. People like to exaggerate. Just the way people are.

So one can only imagine the exaggeration the religions we know today have gone through?!

 

[ananda]

Always a good point. Imagine a game of 'Telephone'. Where one whispers something in a person's ear, then they pass it on, and on, and on....by the time it gets back to the original person, it's not the same thing. It happens in everyday life too. A story is told, and by the time it's passed on and retold, it's greatly exaggerated. People like to exaggerate. Just the way people are.

So one can only imagine the exaggeration the religions we know today have gone through?!

I agree, texts and claims can be exaggerated; then again, they may not have been. I don't know either way.

In my experience, it seems to generally comes down to "feeling" that a (supposed) prophet is true, in spite of a lack of knowledge. (I say knowledge, and not evidence. Someone can see a pottery shard with the word ישוע ("Yeshua") on it, and interpret that "evidence" as proof for the existence of Jesus (and validation for all of Christianity!). Someone else can examine the same evidence and interpret it as the work of a youth practicing his writing. A third person can turn that upside down and read it as "min". Knowledge, instead, would be witnessing for ourselves the writer writing the letters, and knowing his intent).

 

[FireDragon76]

Christianity (and other faith-based religions) is a search for an intelligent ultimate, usually imagined as "God". Can you point me to a faith-based religion which possesses such a path consisting of intermediary steps (similar to above) by which a disciple, in his current lifetime, can progressively & directly experience knowledge of this intelligent ultimate?

Eastern Orthodoxy or the various western monastic or mystical traditions.

Lots of ordinary Christians have spiritual experiences, however if they are wise they are careful to not boast about them.

 

[ananda]

Eastern Orthodoxy or the various western monastic or mystical traditions.

Thanks. Do you believe that someone can walk such a path to verify that the intelligence they may allegedly encounter is indeed the Intelligent Almighty, and not an intermediate (but still vastly powerful) being?

For example, the texts of early Buddhism claims (I have not verified) that there are incredibly powerful deities (compared to us) inhabiting various heavenly realms, but none of them are almighty, infinite, nor eternal. Maha-Brahma, the alleged ruler of the visible cosmos, is one such deity who believed himself to be the Almighty and Eternal One. However, it is said that even he cannot see the deities and the heavens above him and his own, and operated under the delusion that his lifespan is infinite, since he could not see the end of it (supposedly lasting into the aeons, but still limited).

Given this possibility, how can we be sure that the Orthodox, and other western monastics and mystics aren't simply encountering an intermediate being such as Maha-Brahma?

 

[FireDragon76]

Thanks. Do you believe that someone can walk such a path to verify that the intelligence they may allegedly encounter is indeed the Intelligent Almighty, and not an intermediate (but still vastly powerful) being?

Yes, of course.

For example, Buddhism claims (I have not verified) that there are incredibly powerful deities (compared to us) inhabiting various heavenly realms, but none of them are almighty, infinite, nor eternal.

Christianity doesn't think of God in a way that is equivalent to a buddhist deva. That's a confusion of categories. God is the ultimate ground of being.

 

[ananda]

Yes, of course.

Christianity doesn't think of God in a way that is equivalent to a buddhist deva. That's a confusion of categories. God is the ultimate ground of being.

I understand that's the claim; but, how do you suppose it be verified, if and when one encounters a higher intelligence claiming to be the ultimate?

 

[FireDragon76]

I understand that's the claim; but, how do you suppose it be verified, if and when one encounters a higher intelligence claiming to be the ultimate?

You will just know it if/when it happens, intuitively. We have saints that have "walked the path", that can speak about God as they have encountered him. It's not just a bunch of taking things on blind faith.

 

[TheOldWays]

You will just know it if/when it happens, intuitively. We have saints that have "walked the path", that can speak about God as they have encountered him. It's not just a bunch of taking things on blind faith.

Sounds like any other religion or spiritual path.

 

[TheOldWays]

I understand that's the claim; but, how do you suppose it be verified, if and when one encounters a higher intelligence claiming to be the ultimate?

Reminds me of the Discourse on Brahma’s Invitation. Basically a god tried to convince Buddha that he was the one supreme being. Buddha called him on it. Even that god had no knowledge of his past lives, as only a Buddha can, so he just assumed he was the supreme being, not knowing that he would one day die as well and face rebirth.

 

[FireDragon76]

Reminds me of the Discourse on Brahma’s Invitation. Basically a god tried to convince Buddha that he was the one supreme being. Buddha called him on it. Even that god had no knowledge of his past lives, as only a Buddha can, so he just assumed he was the supreme being, not knowing that he would one day die as well and face rebirth.

This sounds more like an anti-hindu polemic disguised as a true story.

 

[TheOldWays]

This sounds more like an anti-hindu polemic disguised as a true story.

Not sure who would actually believe that is a true story. Probably anti-hindu for sure. But I found the myth/story relevant to any supreme creator god.

 

[ananda]

You will just know it if/when it happens, intuitively. We have saints that have "walked the path", that can speak about God as they have encountered him. It's not just a bunch of taking things on blind faith.

So would you agree that it all goes back to personal experience & verification, then?